Eternal Security and free choice for the Christian?

[John146]

Great, I just need to see scripture supporting that and I will allow my understanding to be changed.

The new testament does not begin until after the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:16, “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.”


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[Scriptureplz]

The new testament does not begin until after the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:16, “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.”


​

I understand that. We are discussing the Old Covenant and the security of the believer I think. You were telling me an OT believer could not lose salvation. I was asking for scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe in the OT they could lose it, just as it will be in the tribulation. In the OT faith had to be maintained or the Spirit would leave them. The Spirit never indwelt and sealed believers like today in the age of grace. So the Spirit could leave them if they didn't keep the faith.

My understanding anyway, which always remains flexible for the Spirit to change through the Word.

That would be dual gospels. Galations 1 would be a lie. And God would put some people under different means of being saved.

It puts the OT under law. And everyone else under grace, The law could never save anyone, as Hebrews said, So then how could an OT saint be saved?

And please note. I believe a person in the OT who has saving faith would not more deny God later in life than NT believer sealed with the spirit.

A person who turns and willingly denies God never had faith to begin with..

 

[Scriptureplz]

That would be dual gospels. Galations 1 would be a lie. And God would put some people under different means of being saved.

It puts the OT under law. And everyone else under grace, The law could never save anyone, as Hebrews said, So then how could an OT saint be saved?

And please note. I believe a person in the OT who has saving faith would not more deny God later in life than NT believer sealed with the spirit.

A person who turns and willingly denies God never had faith to begin with..

I don't believe "hyper dispensationalism" (multiple gospels), but there is no scripture that I know of in the OT that says a believer is indwelt with the HS. There are examples of the HS being 'upon' a believer, and also examples of the HS potential of leaving a believer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't believe "hyper dispensationalism" (multiple gospels), but there is no scripture that I know of in the OT that says a believer is indwelt with the HS. There are examples of the HS being 'upon' a believer, and also examples of the HS potential of leaving a believer.

I never said there was.

I think you misunderstood me, Forgive me for not being clear.

Their salvation was secure by the word of God..

Maybe you can look at it like We just have the extra seal.. I am sure they all got it once the penatly was paid. And are all sealed to this day (since the day of redemption has not yet occured)

 

[Scriptureplz]

I never said there was.

I think you misunderstood me, Forgive me for not being clear.

Their salvation was secure by the word of God..

Maybe you can look at it like We just have the extra seal.. I am sure they all got it once the penatly was paid. And are all sealed to this day (since the day of redemption has not yet occured)

I can see your point and need to do some study on it. I haven't given it that much time so I truly was looking for scripture to show me either way. I have always thought since the Spirit indwelt believers in the age of grace that was the difference. I will have to make some time to study this.

 

[John146]

I understand that. We are discussing the Old Covenant and the security of the believer I think. You were telling me an OT believer could not lose salvation. I was asking for scripture.

Sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant is that the OT saints were not eternally secure. They did not even experience salvation like we know it. We have something better than they. They did not believe on the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection for salvation. They didn't have that message. They were responsible for living out whatever God had revealed to them.

The OT saint lived by their own faith. The NT believer is justified by the faith of Christ. The faith of Christ was not even available to the OT saints. See Galatians 3:

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came(the faith of Christ), we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith(the faith of Christ).

25 But after that faith is come(the faith of Christ), we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[John146]

I never said there was.

I think you misunderstood me, Forgive me for not being clear.

Their salvation was secure by the word of God..

Maybe you can look at it like We just have the extra seal.. I am sure they all got it once the penatly was paid. And are all sealed to this day (since the day of redemption has not yet occured)

An OT saint who did not live according to the law, was not justified before God. Their justification before God by doing works of faith, got them "safe" in Abraham's bosom upon death. Christ would preach to them after His death, and set those who were in captivity in Abraham's bosom free.

 

[Scriptureplz]

An OT saint who did not live according to the law, was not justified before God. Their justification before God by doing works of faith, got them "safe" in Abraham's bosom upon death. Christ would preach to them after His death, and set those who were in captivity in Abraham's bosom free.

Okay, I know that's wrong. ALL from the beginning of time have been justified by faith. I think the question is here, could Old Testament Saints lose their faith? If so, could they lose their salvation if they lost their faith? I do believe they could lose faith and salvation because of lack of faith, but I'm not adamant about it.

In the Age of Grace, believers can lose their faith, but if they have ever trusted Christ for salvation they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. So He maintains that faith for us.

"Though we are faithless yet He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself". 2 Timothy 2:13

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can see your point and need to do some study on it. I haven't given it that much time so I truly was looking for scripture to show me either way. I have always thought since the Spirit indwelt believers in the age of grace that was the difference. I will have to make some time to study this.

At this point, I am just talking about eternal security, not the seal of the spirit. so maybe we are talking about two different things..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

An OT saint who did not live according to the law, was not justified before God. Their justification before God by doing works of faith, got them "safe" in Abraham's bosom upon death. Christ would preach to them after His death, and set those who were in captivity in Abraham's bosom free.

Then no one was ever saved in the OT. Because Christ is the only man who ever walked the earth who lived according to Gods standard of the law Everyone else failed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, I know that's wrong. ALL from the beginning of time have been justified by faith. I think the question is here, could Old Testament Saints lose their faith? If so, could they lose their salvation if they lost their faith? I do believe they could lose faith and salvation because of lack of faith, but I'm not adamant about it.

In the Age of Grace, believers can lose their faith, but if they have ever trusted Christ for salvation they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. So He maintains that faith for us.

"Though we are faithless yet He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself". 2 Timothy 2:13

2 timothy 2 would apply to all men of all ages. Not just the church age

 

[John146]

Okay, I know that's wrong. ALL from the beginning of time have been justified by faith. I think the question is here, could Old Testament Saints lose their faith? If so, could they lose their salvation if they lost their faith? I do believe they could lose faith and salvation because of lack of faith, but I'm not adamant about it.

In the Age of Grace, believers can lose their faith, but if they have ever trusted Christ for salvation they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. So He maintains that faith for us.

"Though we are faithless yet He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself". 2 Timothy 2:13

I'm in agreement with what you are saying. You didn't give me a reason why you disagreed with my post. The believer today is justified by the faith of Christ, not their own individual faith as in OT times. Christ's faith was not even available to an OT saint, see post #47.

Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by HIS faith."

Yet, Paul was lead by the Holy Spirit to leave out the word "his" because we no longer live by our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:17, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

 

[Scriptureplz]

At this point, I am just talking about eternal security, not the seal of the spirit. so maybe we are talking about two different things..

The "seal of the Holy Spirit" is why we have eternal security. Let me ask this....can the believer in the tribulation lose his salvation once they have believed? I say yes. Remember the parable of the "Ten Virgins"? This is about the tribulation Saints that have to keep their lamps full in order to be "bridesmaids". The "oil" is their faith, which is what keeps the Spirit "upon" them. The tribulation will be just like the OT as far as salvation. No believer is "indwelt" by the Spirit during either of those times. The Age of Grace is the only time the Spirit indwells man.

 

[John146]

Then no one was ever saved in the OT. Because Christ is the only man who ever walked the earth who lived according to Gods standard of the law Everyone else failed.

Keeping the whole law included the sacrificial system as well.

Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"

1 Kings 11:34,"Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"

Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

 

[John146]

The "seal of the Holy Spirit" is why we have eternal security. Let me ask this....can the believer in the tribulation lose his salvation once they have believed? I say yes. Remember the parable of the "Ten Virgins"? This is about the tribulation Saints that have to keep their lamps full in order to be "bridesmaids". The "oil" is their faith, which is what keeps the Spirit "upon" them. The tribulation will be just like the OT as far as salvation. No believer is "indwelt" by the Spirit during either of those times. The Age of Grace is the only time the Spirit indwells man.

I agree, God is dealing with the twelve tribes again as prior to the Church Age in OT times. The time of faith alone has ended. A tribulation saint must work his way through this period in order to be ushered into the earthly kingdom.

 

[Scriptureplz]

I'm in agreement with what you are saying. You didn't give me a reason why you disagreed with my post. The believer today is justified by the faith of Christ, not their own individual faith as in OT times. Christ's faith was not even available to an OT saint, see post #47.

Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by HIS faith."

Yet, Paul was lead by the Holy Spirit to leave out the word "his" because we no longer live by our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:17, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

It could be you're correct in that. I have wondered about the "faith of Christ" thing but never quite looked at it the same way as you are here. I think the reason I've always brushed that off is because it usually came from people trying to tell me the Church started with Paul or somewhere besides Acts 2. I have also heard Calvinist use it to support Faith being a gift and therefore God elects some to be saved and some not. Not saying you believe or teach these things, I have no idea. It's just why I have never paid that much attention to people that were pointing it out before.

 

[Scriptureplz]

I agree, God is dealing with the twelve tribes again as prior to the Church Age in OT times. The time of faith alone has ended. A tribulation saint must work his way through this period in order to be ushered into the earthly kingdom.

No, it always has been and always will be faith alone, the difference IMO is that faith must be maintained if it is a believer outside the "Age of Grace".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "seal of the Holy Spirit" is why we have eternal security. Let me ask this....can the believer in the tribulation lose his salvation once they have believed?

No, Otherwise, God is a liar, and did not keep his promise.

I say yes. Remember the parable of the "Ten Virgins"? This is about the tribulation Saints that have to keep their lamps full in order to be "bridesmaids". The "oil" is their faith, which is what keeps the Spirit "upon" them. The tribulation will be just like the OT as far as salvation. No believer is "indwelt" by the Spirit during either of those times. The Age of Grace is the only time the Spirit indwells man.

to me that is dualism, that is placing conditions on one person (pre-cross/tribulation) to be saved, and no conditions on others (people of the church age) who are saved by grace through faith alone..

God keeps his promise. David understood eternal life.. He understood faiht, He understood sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire.. He understood he was saved.

The seal is not for our benefit, it is for Gods.. When Jesus died, he died for everyone, Old testament, New testament, tribulation, Kingdom age..

all men everywhere were saved by faith in Christ (abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness) this same righteousness is given to us..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Keeping the whole law included the sacrificial system as well.

Joshua 22:2, "And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:"

1 Kings 11:34,"Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:"

Luke 1:5-6, "There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Sacrifice and burnt offering never saved anyone.

Hebrews 10:4

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

No one was ever saved by the law (Galatians 3)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.