Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[RobbyEarl]

So I can relish in my flesh and fill it's desires and still be saved. Dang!! I knew I should hired that 19 year old Japanese girl.

 

[fredoheaven]

Hello fredoheaven,

Thanks for writing.

You wrote: "...we will not go beyond the 4 corners of this passage..."

My response: Then you violated your own hermeneutics by citing: (1) Ezekiel, (2) Old Covenant, (3) Law, (4) Moses, (5) stoning. (none of these five terms is even stated in Eze. 18!)

Why do you restrict me to Ezekiel 18, yet you seem free to bring in MANY ideas from elsewhere throughout Scripture?

I'd say that's a pretty unfair way to avoid answering the issues I brought forth. Just saying!

Alright Bibleguy, I have edited those words/sentences in the "message" though they only convey emphasis and which is a fair way as you have said but still it carries same message. So here it goes...

The Message:

The question is who are these righteous according to Prophet Ezekiel? The righteous is the one who is not committing iniquity and is not doing the abomination like the wicked man does. The wicked man is the opposite of the righteous who are living in trespasses and sins. Ultimately, what the Prophet is all talking about on the passage are those Israelites and not the Gentiles hence verse 25 says the Prophet says “hear now, O Israel”. Any descendants of Israel (physical) during that time were warned to consider their ways, righteous that turns away from his righteousness together with the wicked shall die.

 

[BibleGuy]

Today we live under a New Covenant known as saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Get out of the stone age and try it.

Hello Utah,

You wrote: "Get out of the stone age and try it."

My response: Jesus told us to get back TO the stone age and obey it! (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to YOU!)

Have you read the context of Dt. 6 to see HOW Jesus COMMANDS us to love God?

Answer: Dt. 6:25....through obedience to Torah.

Remember: Torah passes INTO the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33).

And, Moses GUARANTEES that ALL Torah will again be obeyed in the future (including stoning laws). See Dt. 30:1-8.

blessings...
Bibleguy

 

[BibleGuy]

You haven't read my post #81.
Please answer it if you can.

Hello AllenW,

Not sure where you're going with your question...but ok....

I think you asked something about how David knew that he would dwell in the house of the Lord forever (presumably referencing Ps. 23:6).

Right?

Well...I suppose there are many ways he could know this.

For example, David was a prophet, so the Spirit enabled David to know things that prophets are enabled by the Spirit to know.

And/or, one (or many) prophets may have communicated this information to David.

Perhaps David had a vision or dream.

There are probably other ways as well....

But I'm not sure the "forever" translation is the best...

For example, the NASB has a footnote stating "length of days" is a literal reading...so it's not clear that this phrase really requires the meaning associated with the English word "forever".

Also, the Hebraic conception of "forever" does not always mean "eternally". Just check out the varied usage of the term "olam" in Hebrew.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Alright Bibleguy, I have edited those words/sentences in the "message" though they only convey emphasis and which is a fair way as you have said but still it carries same message. So here it goes...

The Message:

The question is who are these righteous according to Prophet Ezekiel? The righteous is the one who is not committing iniquity and is not doing the abomination like the wicked man does. The wicked man is the opposite of the righteous who are living in trespasses and sins. Ultimately, what the Prophet is all talking about on the passage are those Israelites and not the Gentiles hence verse 25 says the Prophet says “hear now, O Israel”. Any descendants of Israel (physical) during that time were warned to consider their ways, righteous that turns away from his righteousness together with the wicked shall die.

Hi there Fredoheaven,

Why assume a distinction between (1) Gentiles grafted into Israel, and (2) the "Israel" which Ezekiel is addressing?

Dt. 29, Dt. 31, and Is. 56 all jointly confirm that grafted-in Gentiles were accepted as Israelites.

So, when Ezekiel addresses "O Israel", then this applies to grafted-in Gentiles as well!

Now, all Christians are included as Israelites right? Otherwise we could NOT participate in covenants that are ONLY between God and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31:33).

So why would Ezekiel 18 not apply to us?

Eze. 18 applies to Israel...we Christians (regardless of genetics) are included in Israel...therefore, it applies to us...even Gentile Christians.

Right?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[fredoheaven]

Hi there Fredoheaven,

Why assume a distinction between (1) Gentiles grafted into Israel, and (2) the "Israel" which Ezekiel is addressing?

Dt. 29, Dt. 31, and Is. 56 all jointly confirm that grafted-in Gentiles were accepted as Israelites.

So, when Ezekiel addresses "O Israel", then this applies to grafted-in Gentiles as well!

Now, all Christians are included as Israelites right? Otherwise we could NOT participate in covenants that are ONLY between God and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31:33).

So why would Ezekiel 18 not apply to us?

Eze. 18 applies to Israel...we Christians (regardless of genetics) are included in Israel...therefore, it applies to us...even Gentile Christians.

Right?

best...
BibleGuy

Hi BibleGuy,

You quoted a passage in Ezek. 18, telling us a definitive proof of No to ES and I have to stay in that passage. So I ask , is this really your definitive passage to refute ES? You need to defend your position. Otherwise this is not definitive passage at all...strictly speaking there were no "Christians" in the days of Ezekiel and even during the early ministry of Christ.

Thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

The grafting in applies when the Jews did not receive the Gospel of Christ, since the Gospel must be preached to the Jew first so Paul thus preached the gospel to the Jews and was repeatedly rejected (Acts 13—28); in consequence, Paul brought the good news to the Gentiles, who in turn became Abraham’s spiritual seed by faith and heirs of the promises to Abraham and his seed (Galatians 3—4). This is what Paul meant in Romans 11 by the Gentiles being “grafted” into the “olive tree” and nourished by the “root” (the promises to Abraham). The tree thus signifies the collective people of God; the “wild branches” grafted in are Gentile believers; the “natural branches” that are cut off are the Jews in unbelief. Jewish believers remain in the tree but are joined with Gentiles and “made” into a “new body,” the Church (Ephesians 2:11–22).

 

[john832]

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you going to find the actual phrase "once saved, always saved" in the Bible? No. But these verses clearly demonstrate that once we are in Christ, we cannot be separated from God's love.

Nor has anyone shown me a verse that says that once a person is saved that he will never in the future be lost. The verses above (Rom 8:39,40) say that "we" can never be separated from God's love. Who is "we"? Are all "unbelievers" separated from God's love? All valid questions to ask and interpret: but the verses do not clearly state the "eternal security doctrine"

Please note in Rom 8:38-39 there is one very glaring thing missing, the self. It does not say that we cannot separate ourselves from God, it says no other OUTSIDE force can...

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

Our own actions (sin) can separate us from God.

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi BibleGuy,

You quoted a passage in Ezek. 18, telling us a definitive proof of No to ES and I have to stay in that passage. So I ask , is this really your definitive passage to refute ES? You need to defend your position. Otherwise this is not definitive passage at all...strictly speaking there were no "Christians" in the days of Ezekiel and even during the early ministry of Christ.

Thanks

Hello Fredoheaven,

You ask me to defend my position.

But we have an underlying hermeneutics dispute here.

So, let's address that first.

You wrote: "You quoted a passage in Ezek. 18, telling us a definitive proof of No to ES and I have to stay in that passage."

My response: That's the problem. We can't interpret individual Scriptural texts independent of truth revealed throughout the remainder of Scripture. That's an unacceptable method of interpretation.

Jesus and the apostles routinely employ Scriptural considerations from throughout the Tanach. Thus, New Testament Scriptures routinely employ Old Testament Scriptural themes and concepts and terms and language.

Can you imagine telling Paul: "Excuse me Paul...you are NOT permitted to appeal to Deuteronomy in Romans...after all Paul, you are writing Scripture...and you MUST limit yourself to the particular passage you are writing."

No...I don't think so.

Restricting ourselves to one individual text at a time is myopic and unscriptural.

Remember: ALL Scripture is inspired by God (2 Ti. 3:16) and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.

It follows that all Scripture must be consistent and coherent...and if we neglect these necessary truths of consistency and coherence, then we are needlessly limiting our capacity to more thoroughly and properly discern the full truth of God's revelation through Scripture.

You appear to claim the following (let's call it P):

P = A passage of Scripture must be interpreted alone, independent of considerations derived from other passages of Scripture.


CONCLUSION: So, here is a dilemma for you:

If you accept P, then your position is myopic and unscriptural.

If you reject P, then you appear to have no legitimate grounds for criticizing my appeal to the broader context of Scripture when I interpret individual Scriptural passages.

Which horn of this dilemma do you take?

best...
BibleGuy

PS Of course there were no "Christians" during Ezekiel's day...but that's no proof that the prophets do not apply to us! Remember, Jesus said the prophets are NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17), which means they are still in force and apply.

 

[Grace777x70]

Please note in Rom 8:38-39 there is one very glaring thing missing, the self. It does not say that we cannot separate ourselves from God, it says no other OUTSIDE force can...

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

Our own actions (sin) can separate us from God.

God loved us before we knew Him. It's impossible to separate ourselves from His love. That goes for "plucking ourselves out of His hand too " and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Sin cannot separate the New Covenant believer from God any more the Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), ( note: not might be...but have been..period)

[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[BibleGuy]

The grafting in applies when the Jews did not receive the Gospel of Christ, since the Gospel must be preached to the Jew first so Paul thus preached the gospel to the Jews and was repeatedly rejected (Acts 13—28); in consequence, Paul brought the good news to the Gentiles, who in turn became Abraham’s spiritual seed by faith and heirs of the promises to Abraham and his seed (Galatians 3—4). This is what Paul meant in Romans 11 by the Gentiles being “grafted” into the “olive tree” and nourished by the “root” (the promises to Abraham). The tree thus signifies the collective people of God; the “wild branches” grafted in are Gentile believers; the “natural branches” that are cut off are the Jews in unbelief. Jewish believers remain in the tree but are joined with Gentiles and “made” into a “new body,” the Church (Ephesians 2:11–22).

Hi again!

I'd like to address these comments...

You (Fredoheaven) wrote:The grafting in applies when the Jews did not receive the Gospel of Christ..."

My response: Gentiles have been placed into Israel ever since as early as Dt. 29; Dt. 31; and Is. 56, if not even earlier. (Read these passages to see for yourself!)

So, Gentile inclusion within Israel was not something new in Paul's day...but it surely became MUCH more widespread with the inauguration of the New Covenant.

Now, you wrote: "...Gentiles...who in turn became Abraham's spiritual seed by faith and heirs of the promises to Abraham and his seed."

My response: Well then!! Abraham was promised inheritance in the land of Israel...and this means that Christians likewise share in the promised inheritance of this land.

This deserves repeating: Christians share in the promised land of Israel!

Moreover, this Abrahamic promise is fulfilled IN CONJUNCTION WITH our obedience to Mosaic Torah (Dt. 6:10).

And, the Torah teaches us to obey true prophets of YHVH.

And, Ezekiel (a true prophet of YHVH) told us that righteous people can turn away to a life of sin leading to death (Eze. 18).

Thus, our shared hope in the Abrahamic inheritance leads us straight back to Eze. 18 which applies to us (as I've now shown).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[Chester]

This thread has gotten so long and so many bunny trails that I am not sure I have kept up with all of it. Has anyone found a verse that clearly states OSAS? I have seen some verses and some lists of verses, but nothing that clearly states OSAS in one verse or maybe several verses. Several people have stated that there is no single verse that states OSAS, but that it is a doctrine derived from a study of Scripture and Scriptural principles. Do those of you who believe in OSAS agree on this, or are there differences of opinion on this?

 

[VernonFrancis]

John 6:37 " All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER cast out."

This would be one verse, I would assume there are others.

 

[Johnlove]

John 6:37 " All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER cast out."

This would be one verse, I would assume there are others.

Yes and Jesus said who it is that come to him. If one sins he or she is coming to the devil.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God. In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody not living a holy life and not loving his brother is no child of God’s.”
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”

 

[Chester]

John 6:37 " All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER cast out."

This would be one verse, I would assume there are others.

Maybe my question is not understood what I am asking: I want a verse that just says it outrightly: not one that has to be interpreted to mean "once saved always saved"

John 6;37 is a powerful verse that has deep truths, but again I don't see it saying outrightly that once a person is saved he is always saved.

If I said to someone: "Whoever come to my house to live, I will never (in no wise) cast out" -- Then if a person came to my house to live with me, but five years later he moved out or someone kidnapped him (hence he was no longer in my house), would you say my invitation to him was a lie?

The first phrase of the verse "all that the Father giveth me" has to be interpreted: Is it "the elect"? Is it those who believe at a point in time? Is it those who continue to believe? Is it those who do good works? It seems to me that here one's previous interpretation of other verses and one's overall view of Scripture will tend to influence one'se interpretation of this phrase.

In order to make the verse mean OSAS you have to bring in principles from other verses. At least that is my opinion.

I am not here trying to disprove OSAS. I am just asking if there is a verse that states it, or if the doctrine comes from a study of Scriptural principles.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe my question is not understood what I am asking: I want a verse that just says it outrightly: not one that has to be interpreted to mean "once saved always saved"

John 6;37 is a powerful verse that has deep truths, but again I don't see it saying outrightly that once a person is saved he is always saved.

If I said to someone: "Whoever come to my house to live, I will never (in no wise) cast out" -- Then if a person came to my house to live with me, but five years later he moved out or someone kidnapped him (hence he was no longer in my house), would you say my invitation to him was a lie?

The first phrase of the verse "all that the Father giveth me" has to be interpreted: Is it "the elect"? Is it those who believe at a point in time? Is it those who continue to believe? Is it those who do good works? It seems to me that here one's previous interpretation of other verses and one's overall view of Scripture will tend to influence one'se interpretation of this phrase.

In order to make the verse mean OSAS you have to bring in principles from other verses. At least that is my opinion.

I am not here trying to disprove OSAS. I am just asking if there is a verse that states it, or if the doctrine comes from a study of Scriptural principles.

You will not find those exact words, Any more than you will find trinity. But the facts remain the same

Eternal life is the best you will get, Eternal (never ending) live (vs death)

You will not be mistaken, If you invite someone over and say if they come into your family, they will live forever. then they die, You lied. Plain and simple

Same goes with God. He promised they woud never die, never hunger or thrist, Live forever, and be risen on the last day (john 6)

If those things do not happen, Jesus lied. Plain and simple

 

[Chester]

You will not find those exact words, Any more than you will find trinity. But the facts remain the same

Eternal life is the best you will get, Eternal (never ending) live (vs death)

You will not be mistaken, If you invite someone over and say if they come into your family, they will live forever. then they die, You lied. Plain and simple

Same goes with God. He promised they woud never die, never hunger or thrist, Live forever, and be risen on the last day (john 6)

If those things do not happen, Jesus lied. Plain and simple

Are you referring here to John 6:35?

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst"

Again, I guess it is as you said that "you will not find those exact words" .

Here Jesus says: the one who comes to me will never hunger; and the one who believes in me will never thirst". He doesn't say that the one who is not coming to him and that the one who is not believing in him will never thirst or hunger.

To make this verse mean "once saved always saved" you would need to interpret the "coming" and the "believing" as a point in time action when we believe (are born again).

 

[Grandpa]

1 Peter 1:5-7
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

John 10:28-29

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


OSAS is the New International Standard English Version of what these scriptures are saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you referring here to John 6:35?

"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst"

Again, I guess it is as you said that "you will not find those exact words" .

Here Jesus says: the one who comes to me will never hunger; and the one who believes in me will never thirst". He doesn't say that the one who is not coming to him and that the one who is not believing in him will never thirst or hunger.

To make this verse mean "once saved always saved" you would need to interpret the "coming" and the "believing" as a point in time action when we believe (are born again).

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


[SUP]47 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]I am that bread of life.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]55 [/SUP]For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[SUP]56 [/SUP]He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

[SUP]57 [/SUP]As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


Jesus equates eating and drinking with believing in him, Anyone who places their faiht in Christ, All these things Jesus promised to them.

If they are not granted, Jesus lied.

 

[Grace777x70]

God is not looking for ways to keep us away from Him. He loves us dearly and the price for our redemption has been bought with the precious blood of Christ.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and you end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either your Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or you are your own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith - the other is works-righteousness.