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popeye
Guest
I have seen hundreds receive the baptism of the HS. I have never heard of anyone receiving it on their own,but I have mo doubt it has happened and surely will keep happening.
Healing is the same. It is designed to happen THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST.
David could of just poured some oil on his own head,and Jesus could have just baptized himself.
Preachers could just say ,why preach,God could just save them all by themselves.
That is not the pattern. Not the design. He is a God of purpose.The purpose for laying on of hands is to TRANSFER the anointing.
This pattern is seen in mat 25.
The foolish virgins wanted a transfer of oil,which was a normal request.
The anointing is transferred from one believer to another,but it CAN Happen like you say.
God is not in our box,but he does operate through protocol. Heavens protocol.
Which is why 1John 2 is sufficient.
The man who has been born of HIS SPIRIT, knows they have been born of HIS SPIRIT.
There is a difference between the virgins, sir.
And it was something that had to do with the heart of those who were foolish "virgins" and the heart of those who were HIS...
If, even with earthly eyes, we are waiting for OUR BRIDEGROOM, and we have to hasten and rush around at the last moment because of HIS return, that says that HE was not ever and always before them....
That kind of reveals that their love was not LOOOOOOOOVE....
Sorry...
I sometimes get carried away...
But if one does not have a love for THE BRIDEGROOM, they will need to rush around to prepare themselves.
The one who loves THE BRIDEGROOM, is ever and always prepared waiting and longing and loving HIS RETURN.
I agree. I too had a similar experience as yours waiting for something to happen. The Lord always seems to deal with me in the area of faith in believing what He reveals to me. I saw where it says if we ask for the Holy Spirit from the Father - He would give and so I just by faith received the Holy Spirit and then by faith I spoke out a few words in tongues that was there until finally now I can speak in tongues for hours at a time and often the language itself changes from one to another different one.
My mind is renewed to this truth so the enemy or any one that doesn't believe in it can't sway me from it.
The personal devotional gift of tongues is for every believer and it is as you say a wonderful blessing. This has not ceased along with knowledge and prophecy which is edification, exhortation, and consolation.
You obviously have a different Bible to me, Because my Bible says the Gifts are for the Church, towards OUR profit.
And the eight operations certainly are for the Church as they show us mysteries, 1 Cor 14:2. Build us up, v4.
Our spirit prays, v 14--15. helps us praise God, V15--17. Are for interpreting to edify the Church, V26.
My Bible tell me that the unbelievers won understand tongues, 1 Cor 14: 21. The meaning of "Hear", is the same as, "Understand", in v2.
My Bible tells me that prophecy is to edify the Church. 1 Cor 14: 3.
So what Bible do you use??.
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popeye
Guest
Most of ministry is to the church.
Paul said he spoke in tongues more than anyone. His anointed letters went down as the eternal word.
No brainer,that on fire believers are more effective.
I don't know why that concept alarms you
When you look at the designed nature of signs according to the purpose of God. There is no outward sign that could witness we are children of God. Signs are designed for the rebellious, the generation of Adam natural unconverted man, no faith the froward nations . . Prophecy, scripture for the generation of Christ.
The whole Pentecost movement had to do with a promised sign for the unbelieving Jew(no faith) found in Isiah 28:11 . It was not the work of Peter that translated the new prophecy in a language the other nations that then as the first works of God they could believe God to the salvation of their souls. 3000 souls where born again in the twinkling of the eye.
It had nothing to do with the person of Peter.It would be blasphemy to attribute what was seen to any person other than Christ ,the anointing Holy Spirit of God.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that “will they not hear me”, saith the LORD. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them "that believe", but to them "that believe not:"" but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1Co 14:21
The previous prophecy fulfilled at Pentecost.
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Tongues was one of the many manners that God did bring new prophecy. Today we have the whole will of God and not in pa rt as we did have before he inspired the last chapter ,the book of Revelation.
Today if any man says; this is what the Lord said to me in a voice not coming from my own self, saying I heard a tongue as new prophecy we are to believe not.
His perfect will with no law missing by which we could know Him more intimately is sealed up till the end of time.with a clear warning not to ad or subtract from it.
Hoping for more new prophecy through any manner to include a tongue is not a hope that comes from hearing God from heaven. But rather earthly inspired of the devil. The spirit of error,the god of this world, Satan. He will continue to bring his lying signs and wonders all the way to the end. The elect will not be deceived. They abide in Him as it is written.
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ember
Guest
Attitudes people...attitudes!
Some of you in this thread have no more hope or expectation in God doing anything for you then someone who has never heard of Him
Hogwash you say? Blasphemy you say?
Someone left the forums again yesterday, but before he did, he left a comment in a certain thread that has been running a long time...and I quote:
He's got a point. I had that experience yesterday. Basically, someone wrote me off as a kook because I speak in tongues and validate the NT experience of miracles etc...things is, I have had a few genuine miracles and do know there is a realm we do not see with our eyes.
There is such negativity in this thread regarding what scripture states. Some folks here are doing their very bestest to negate the experience of others...experience that they have because they BELIEVE the Bible. So, I say too, what is your problem? Is it really that you think certain gifts have ceased?
Why someone was quite angry at God yesterday because they thought He should heal someone but somehow, that became the fault of all Charismatics everywhere...my background is Brethren which is not charismatic by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But, this fellow ASSUMED something and that is what a good number of you are doing...you are ASSUMING
You don't see that you are required to continue to live by the same faith that brought you to faith in Christ in the first place. You are still sucking on your thumb and have actually become even more ingrained in your own bad habits and sin then BEFORE you knew Christ and that is not as uncommon as you might think.
Why are some of you so ANGRY? What is there to be angry about? If eat right and exercise, I will look reasonably good and I will feel pretty good (not withstanding sickness or what have you, but under normal circumstances) If I consume far more than I need and slump around the house all day, I will look like the overstuffed armchair I sit on when I watch TV.
If you walk around all day despising the good and the testimony and the joy others have in Christ, then hey ho...you are going to have a miserable attitude.
All you Bible scholars...WHO CARES! if you don't exhibit the joy of the Lord and you bash anyone who does because YOU PERSONALLY ARE A GROUCH, who cares about your verses and what you think you know
If what you believe is not evident in your life, then seriously, you should be asking yourself just what it is that you do believe
Enjoy
and one more thing...our poster whom I quote above, also called the attitude he describes as CYNICAL and I gotta say...he is bang on right about that...cynical NOT hopeful or expectant in God
Some of you in this thread have no more hope or expectation in God doing anything for you then someone who has never heard of Him
Hogwash you say? Blasphemy you say?
Someone left the forums again yesterday, but before he did, he left a comment in a certain thread that has been running a long time...and I quote:
He's got a point. I had that experience yesterday. Basically, someone wrote me off as a kook because I speak in tongues and validate the NT experience of miracles etc...things is, I have had a few genuine miracles and do know there is a realm we do not see with our eyes.
There is such negativity in this thread regarding what scripture states. Some folks here are doing their very bestest to negate the experience of others...experience that they have because they BELIEVE the Bible. So, I say too, what is your problem? Is it really that you think certain gifts have ceased?
Why someone was quite angry at God yesterday because they thought He should heal someone but somehow, that became the fault of all Charismatics everywhere...my background is Brethren which is not charismatic by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But, this fellow ASSUMED something and that is what a good number of you are doing...you are ASSUMING
You don't see that you are required to continue to live by the same faith that brought you to faith in Christ in the first place. You are still sucking on your thumb and have actually become even more ingrained in your own bad habits and sin then BEFORE you knew Christ and that is not as uncommon as you might think.
Why are some of you so ANGRY? What is there to be angry about? If eat right and exercise, I will look reasonably good and I will feel pretty good (not withstanding sickness or what have you, but under normal circumstances) If I consume far more than I need and slump around the house all day, I will look like the overstuffed armchair I sit on when I watch TV.
If you walk around all day despising the good and the testimony and the joy others have in Christ, then hey ho...you are going to have a miserable attitude.
All you Bible scholars...WHO CARES! if you don't exhibit the joy of the Lord and you bash anyone who does because YOU PERSONALLY ARE A GROUCH, who cares about your verses and what you think you know
If what you believe is not evident in your life, then seriously, you should be asking yourself just what it is that you do believe
Enjoy
and one more thing...our poster whom I quote above, also called the attitude he describes as CYNICAL and I gotta say...he is bang on right about that...cynical NOT hopeful or expectant in God
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Praise God, It's wonderful that you had the faith to believe God's word and receive the Holy Ghost.
Have you ever had the Holy Spirit take over your tongues and interceded, either for you, or through you for someone else, or some situations that need urgent intercession. Rom 8: 26.
I know when the Holy Spirit takes over my tongues to intercede, and sometimes He shows me what He is interceding for, Other time I feel sad and burdensome, then after a while, the burden and sadness goes and id replaced by joy, And I know the Holy Spirit has made a breakthrough for someone or something.
Gifts as that not seen are and will be valid until the end of time .But not sign gifts as that seen..No such thing as a sign gift. Signs are designed for those who believe not (no faith) or what he calls the rebellious. That can be seen over and over through the scriptures.
But he said if you can't decipher the tongue it was of NO edification to THE BODY (or even to unbelievers) but was edification unto one's own self.
What would be the point in speaking tongues if no one even understands what is being said?
The point being it is to build up HIS BODY of Believers...not our own.
If you speak tongues and it can't be understood, it is for you to speak in the tongue of angels to GOD...and to sing and praise and glorify HIM...between you and HIM...
Unless one can decipher what is being said, do not speak in tongues.
I agree that a lot of stuff is done through the body of Christ. I too have seen hundreds filled with the Holy Spirit with others praying for them and some others were filled when they were by themselves. I heard of one getting filled and speaking in tongues for the first time in her bathtub...lol
I'm not too sure about the "transfer" of things as it was in the Old Testament. I see it more of a releasing of what is already in us in Christ. I haven't really looked too much into it though to make an informed decision.
I can see doing things as a point of contact to release faith in people too. Much like anointing oil does because there is nothing special in olive oil itself.
I agree God is not in our little theological boxes!
We have the anointing within us in the person of the Holy Spirit as 1 John tells us.
1 John 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
More effective to whom?
To unbelievers?
To babies?
I don't think so.
If what is being said, can't be understood, it is nothing...
The whole point was to be a witness of CHRIST before a lost world...leading men (all men) to the TRUTH of THE SON of GOD.
If I speak in tongues and can't even interpret what is said (and I don't MEAN making up something because that would be lying before GOD), or if one in THE BODY doesn't and can't interpret what is said..there is no point to the speaking in tongues before men who will not be able to understand if there is not one who can interpret what is being said.
Didn't you remember that Paul spoke about this in the church of Corinth?
To unbelievers?
To babies?
I don't think so.
If what is being said, can't be understood, it is nothing...
The whole point was to be a witness of CHRIST before a lost world...leading men (all men) to the TRUTH of THE SON of GOD.
If I speak in tongues and can't even interpret what is said (and I don't MEAN making up something because that would be lying before GOD), or if one in THE BODY doesn't and can't interpret what is said..there is no point to the speaking in tongues before men who will not be able to understand if there is not one who can interpret what is being said.
Didn't you remember that Paul spoke about this in the church of Corinth?
Yes, because HE even said a wicked generation asks for a sign, but none shall be given it except the sign of Jonah.
And the great imitator, will deceive many in the last days, by using false signs so as to deceive those who will be looking for "any other savior" not recognizing THE ONE whom THE FATHER sent...
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popeye
Guest
The foolish were depicted as "his"
Virgin equals pure,set apart,undefiled.
They Completely INDISTINGUISHABLE from the wise,except one thing. The EXTRA container of oil.
They had lamps and SOME oil,just not enough.
This is the picture Jesus points to when he tells us "pray that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come on the earth and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF GOD"
The 5 foolish were not worthy.saved,but not worthy.
I have actually but it is rare in the sense of having a complete urgency ( well so far for me it has been like that ).
Just last year I was speaking words of life and the scriptures that had been given a person while I was praying for them. All of a sudden I felt a great compassion inside of me and I started to speak in tongues in a language I had never heard before. It was almost like a pleading and groaning and I remember with my mind I was saying "This is different" - in the sense that it was my spirit speaking but the Holy Spirit was really taking over and expressing things that I didn't know about. It was really a joining of the 2 of us in my spirit.
Like you I knew when it was done as I started to rejoice.
E
ember
Guest
just so!
I can't say how many times that very same thing has happened and that is not uncommon for someone who speaks/prays in tongues
I could relate many stories...even from others...and how they knew when things were 'ok' and later on learned what they had been praying for and how God intervened
God is merciful and longsuffering and not willing that any should perish!
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popeye
Guest
What I am saying is the man who spoke in tongues more than anyone wrote some anointed letters that became the word of God.
Now,what that also says is that he was speaking in tongues under the anointing.
Add that up.
The one UNDER THE ANOINTING did more than Joe six pack nominal mental believers
I would say fleshly experience is not the validator of spirit life, the unseen .The word of God is that validator, as a perfect law not subject to change... alone..
Many today use what they call out of the body experience to prove God is with them or there is no God as our faithful Creator. .
Even Jesus at the beginning of his earthly ministry experienced what some call an "out of body experience," which was really another spirit revealing bringing in information, as that not seen in a false hope to a person.
Without moving one inch in the sand Satan the father of lies showed Christ all the kingdoms of the world and all the glory of it..
Again and again till the devil fled Christ would say, as it is written .with it representing the faith of God. It is the key that unlocks the gates of hell and make the devil flee. I would be careful in what you to attribute, as faith.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, "It is written" again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
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popeye
Guest
I would suggest you do a study on it.
You are taking a multiple dimension dynamic and forcing it into a one dimensional template.
Paul,as do modern believers spoke in tongues in private.
It says the spirit is praying but the mind is unfruitful.
God ain't in any of our boxes