Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[God4me]

Brother what you have written is no proof. It is your way to interprete the scripture. You useing the verses how you need it to suply your doctrine. Also you are ignoring the fact that you cant find an evidence in history. Of course its not the bible, but if you would be right, you would find it in the teachings of the past sholars (before 1900). And sorry the baptising with the Holy Spirit as second event is not taught in the bible. You have to create this.
Also you ignore the fact, that with your doctrine you stamp all christians before 1900 and which are non charismatic/pentecostal to imperfekt christians, because according your theory they are not equipped for the ministriy.
I only can say this is a false doctrine. Believers getting the gifts when they are born again, according the Holy Spirit gives it. And they get gifts when the Lord gives them a task for to do.
That my meaning and i suppose we come not togehter in this.

Let me show you again.
[1]The believers in Acts 8: 14, were born again of the Spirit, and baptized in water, V 16.Yet they weren't baptized in the Holy Ghost until the Apostles laid hands on them, V17.
[2]Paul was born again, Acts 9: 6, He had a vision, V12. Ananias called Paul, "Brother Saul", V 17, But he wasn't baptized in the Holy Ghost until Ananias Ministered it to him. v17.
[3] The believers in Acts 16: 1, were born again, Paul knew they were born again, and he asked them if they had been baptized in the Holy Ghost, but they weren't, Not until Paul laid hands on them.

The only way that you can have your view, is, By twisting the scriptures.

You CANNOT go by history if it over rules the scriptures, Plus if you did go by history, You'll see that Christians have had the second blessing, [The Baptism in the Holy Ghost, as I have, I was saved, [Born again by God's Spirit], 7th Dec 1975.
But I wasn't baptized in the Holy Ghost with the Biblical evidence of speaking in tongues, Until 11th May, 1976.


When Jesus built His Church, He built a Spirit filled people, and they have been here ever since, then.

 

[God4me]

it is here as elsewhere a grave mistake to assert or insist that God tells us when in fact it is Paul that tells the early Corinthians as far as I read and interpret it - btw would someone like to explain 14:18 - wincam

It was Jesus who gave Paul his revelations, 2 Cor 12: 2--4.Gal 1: 11--12. Eph 3: 3.
So it was
God who tells us to
Covet the gifts, 1 Cor 12: 31.
Desire them, 1 Cor 14: 1.
Be zealous for them, 1 Cor 14: 12.

 

[wincam]

It was Jesus who gave Paul his revelations, 2 Cor 12: 2--4.Gal 1: 11--12. Eph 3: 3.
So it was
God who tells us to
Covet the gifts, 1 Cor 12: 31.
Desire them, 1 Cor 14: 1.
Be zealous for them, 1 Cor 14: 12.

even if either or, still them and not us - wincam

 

[valiant]

Let me show you again.
[1]The believers in Acts 8: 14, were born again of the Spirit, and baptized in water, V 16.Yet they weren't baptized in the Holy Ghost until the Apostles laid hands on them, V17.

where does it say when the were born again of the Spirit?

[2]Paul was born again, Acts 9: 6, He had a vision, V12. Ananias called Paul, "Brother Saul", V 17, But he wasn't baptized in the Holy Ghost until Ananias Ministered it to him. v17.

It nowhere says that Paul was born again prior to the Spirit coming on Him. You are imagining it. He called him brother Saul because he knew what he was going to do to Him.

[3] The believers in Acts 16: 1, were born again, Paul knew they were born again, and he asked them if they had been baptized in the Holy Ghost, but they weren't, Not until Paul laid hands on them.

I presume you mean 19.1? They were disciples of John the Baptist and had never heard of the Holy Spirit. They were thus NOT born again. Paul asked them if they had RECEIVED the Spirit at all. They said NO,

The only way that you can have your view, is, By twisting the scriptures.

It is you who ignore obvious facts and make assumptions for which you have no scriptural evidence,

In each case the work of the Spirit is only mentioned ONCE,

Incidentally the Bible teaches that men can be FILLED again and again. What you had was a filling of the Spirit which you misinterpreted,

 

[garee]

Hi my two cents..

There are no sign gifts that we can use to confirm we are a new creature(Christian).

His unseen Spirit that dwells in us witnesses to our spirit we are his children.It is all the spiritual work that is needed to believe Him. He does not offer the believer a literal sign. There is simply no need.

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit" itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

We walk by faith not by sight. Signs are for the rebellious that Christ called an evil generation (the generation of Adam “no faith”) They seek after a sign .Prophecy as the same spirit of faith according as it is written is for those who do believe. Christ clearly informs us . No new sign will be given .The sign and wonder in respect to the sign of Jonas was the last .

Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

I think the key is in how we hear God aright, as the things of God, and not man as things of men. It is there that the father of lies, Satan, the serpent gets his foot in the door. Distinguishing between the two is vital in hearing God.

One thing I noticed when looking at the posts was in the way of receiving of the Holy Spirit. It did not have its origin as a foundation in Acts during the Pentecost as some would espouse.. Abel knew God as the Spirit of Christ lived in him, having favor on Abel in the same way he has grace on all he desires so to have mercy with.(1 Peter 1:11) This reveals how that Holy Spirit did dwell in the Old testament saints just as with us. It is how we see the eternal spiritual things of God not seen as comparing the spiritual to the spiritual .Not comparing the temporal as that seen to the temporal.

2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the “things which are seen”, but at the “things which are not seen”: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Keeping in mind the above interpretation, as prescription given to us to hear the gospel ,like a hearing aid. I would think better understanding can be gleaned..

The baptism of the Spirit as that not seen, the eternal is that in which the Holy Spirit calls the "hearing of faith". It is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against. It causes our baptisms from heaven. It can I believe help us understand God not seen the eternal is not served by human hands in any way shape or form of that seen, the temporal.

There are "two" kinds of faith. The kind of faith we are to concern ourselves with is called by God the “hearing of faith” is in respect to the “faith of Christ”, the faith of God.And is also referred to as the same spirit of faith according as it is written.

His faith is as the author and finisher, or the Alpha and the Omega. You could say in respect to the author; “let there be” and the finisher; “lo and behold there was” His faith is different than that of the creation the created faith, our conscience or heart the source of imagination. Our faith needs substance His faith provides substance where none existed beforehand.

In that way we can agree with God in so much that it is Him who works according to His faith in us to both will and perform His good pleasure. It might not be understandable but is believable as in having the faith that surpasses all understanding.

While the things of men they can bring created substance (H20) as that seen, the temporal to show they have already received the unseen eternal faith to believe which comes by hearing God. This is our faith offered towards Him. He calls our faith as if it is dead in so much that it cannot call Him down from heaven unless he does the first work, us hearing Him
In that way , it, the hearing of God, is the conversion. It is how we can hear God so that we then can understand Him, and therefore seek after Him who has no form, according to that perfect law of faith.

Jesus made it clear to the apostles that God is not served by human hands if we believe God to the salvation of our souls .we understand it was because worked in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure. By giving us his faith, the gift. Giving us ears to hear . Some refuse that faith and call God a respecter of person.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent”. Joh 6:28

One of the clearest places that I can think of is in Galatians. Interestingly he calls the Galatian believer “foolish” a word meaning; a wisdom of this world without God’s perspective working in the person heart and thoughts. (The fool has said there is no God in their heart/conscience)

Therefore the Holy Spirit affirmed that those foolish Galatians did deny Christ in unbelief(no faith) , and therefore sinned. Christ, then turning them toward himself so that they could repent .He gave them clear instruction on who does the first works.

Note ....(Purple in parentheses) my personal addition to try and make a point.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? ( Christ finished his promised work of faith) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the “works of the law”, or by the “hearing of faith”? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, (not according to their own fleshly work of faith, the hearing a person’s own conscience ) are ye now made perfect by the flesh?( hearing a person’s own conscience )Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the “works of the law”, or by the “hearing of faith”? Gal 3:1-5

I think by looking at the phrase the “hearing of faith” the unseen eternal baptism of the Holy Spiritin regard to God’s labor of love that works in us we get a better or a different idea of what it means when the Holy Spirit declared after each attempt to get those who had become lukewarm , to repent, and do the first works God requires of us (believe God , the hearing of faith)

I would think it would be like what is said to the Galatians. It would be likened in the same way after each of the 7 loving reprimands he called the churches in Revelation to do.... turning them so they could in turn repent...

Revelation 2:7 He “that hath” an ear, (the hearing of Christ’s faith) let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 He “that hath” an ear (the hearing of Christ’s faith), let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 He “that hath” an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:29 He “that hath” an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:6 He “that hath” an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

H20 baptism is simply an old testament ceremonial law that was required when a new priest was preparing to begin the priestly ministry, but it provided no spiritual substance that could wash away even the least of sin. The disciples of John (John 3:25) argued with the Pharisees regarding that old testament ceremonial law . It is why Christ was baptized by a Levite John before he started his earthly ministry Seeing he was of the tribe of Judas and got under the law involving a new priest. It is the reason believers are baptized today as they show the congregation they believe God has prepared their new hearts for the ministry, of the kingdom of priests (all believers) How it developed into what it is today as a sign and wonder that confirms a person has eternal life .

It was not inspired from heaven as a doctrine of God. Christians I believe are to walk by faith the unseen eternal. Not by sight after the temporal seen.(H20)

 

[notuptome]

It was Jesus who gave Paul his revelations, 2 Cor 12: 2--4.Gal 1: 11--12. Eph 3: 3.
So it was
God who tells us to
Covet the gifts, 1 Cor 12: 31.
Desire them, 1 Cor 14: 1.
Be zealous for them, 1 Cor 14: 12.

You frustrate the strength of your argument by including the three sign gifts of the Holy Spirit which we are told will end and which were purposed for Israel and not Gentiles.

To be zealous of the gifts is to be zealous of Christ. Our witness is not in gifts but in our Savior Christ. We testify of what Christ has done not what we are doing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[God4me]

even if either or, still them and not us - wincam

You preach the gospel according to wincam, and not the Biblical truth.

 

[God4me]

where does it say when the were born again of the Spirit?


It nowhere says that Paul was born again prior to the Spirit coming on Him. You are imagining it. He called him brother Saul because he knew what he was going to do to Him.



I presume you mean 19.1? They were disciples of John the Baptist and had never heard of the Holy Spirit. They were thus NOT born again. Paul asked them if they had RECEIVED the Spirit at all. They said NO,



It is you who ignore obvious facts and make assumptions for which you have no scriptural evidence,

In each case the work of the Spirit is only mentioned ONCE,

Incidentally the Bible teaches that men can be FILLED again and again. What you had was a filling of the Spirit which you misinterpreted,

Those in Acts 8, were born again and baptised in water.

Paul was saved, Ananias knew he was.

I did mean Acts 19: 1. Paul knew the were saved, That's why he asked them if they have been baptised in the Holy Ghost since they BELIEVED.
please note the two word, Disciples, and Believed. Paul knew they were believing disciples of Jesus.

I have given you scriptures that prove they were saved but not baptised in the Holy Ghost. Whereas, all you have given, Is your own opinions.
Then you have cheek to say that I haven't given any Biblical evidence.

You are right about one thing, we can be filled many times, In fact Paul said ewe should keep being filled.
There is one baptism in the Holy Ghost, but many fillings.
Plus, the Biblical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost, is speaking in tongues, And I find that people who come against the baptism in the Holy Ghost as a different experience to the new birth, And' baptised in the Holy Ghost at all, and they don't speak in tongues.

 

[God4me]

You frustrate the strength of your argument by including the three sign gifts of the Holy Spirit which we are told will end and which were purposed for Israel and not Gentiles.

To be zealous of the gifts is to be zealous of Christ. Our witness is not in gifts but in our Savior Christ. We testify of what Christ has done not what we are doing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Nowhere does the Bible say the gifts will end this side of eternity.
It's only those who don't speak in tongues or prophecy, that say they have ceased.

The gifts were given to the Church, for the benefit of the Church, 1 Cor 12: 7 says they are given to the Church towards our profiting. And the Church is still here today, so are the God given gifts of the Spirit.

 

[popeye]

The Sprit comes into you upon conversion. The Spirit empowers you when you let Him.

Ie, all Christians have the Holy Spirit within them. But not all Christians allow the Holy Spirit to empower them.

The bible says the HS is received as a second work through the laying on of hands,not a abstract by product of hanging with God

 

[miknik5]

The gifts were given to edify and build up the body, yes.
But the gifts were NOT given to glorify the gift, but to glorify and make known THE GIVER of the gift(s)..
And all these gift(s) will cease...even prophecy...

Make sure that the one who has been endowed/empowered with these gifts understands it was for the building up of HIS BODY first and foremost..

And not our own.

 

[popeye]

Those in Acts 8, were born again and baptised in water.

Paul was saved, Ananias knew he was.

I did mean Acts 19: 1. Paul knew the were saved, That's why he asked them if they have been baptised in the Holy Ghost since they BELIEVED.
please note the two word, Disciples, and Believed. Paul knew they were believing disciples of Jesus.

I have given you scriptures that prove they were saved but not baptised in the Holy Ghost. Whereas, all you have given, Is your own opinions.
Then you have cheek to say that I haven't given any Biblical evidence.

You are right about one thing, we can be filled many times, In fact Paul said ewe should keep being filled.
There is one baptism in the Holy Ghost, but many fillings.
Plus, the Biblical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost, is speaking in tongues, And I find that people who come against the baptism in the Holy Ghost as a different experience to the new birth, And' baptised in the Holy Ghost at all, and they don't speak in tongues.

Yes you are correct.

It is a amazing experience and those that reject it are missing a huge blessing. Huge.

I am glad I was saved at a full gospel church.

I SAW they had the baptism. I saw it and wanted it. It was about 6 months after conversion that I finally got it.

The cessationist carries a religious spirit. I believe there is a famine inside of them,but that spirit turn the famine into something other than hunger.

However,I did see a few hardened Baptists get zapped by God in revival.

Amazing how none of them confused what they received.

I believe the bottom line is hunger.

No hunger equals stagnation.

Stagnation begats luke warm believers. Mental salvation.

 

[notuptome]

Nowhere does the Bible say the gifts will end this side of eternity.
It's only those who don't speak in tongues or prophecy, that say they have ceased.

The gifts were given to the Church, for the benefit of the Church, 1 Cor 12: 7 says they are given to the Church towards our profiting. And the Church is still here today, so are the God given gifts of the Spirit.

Despite the flowery euphemisms you are half correct. Scripture says they, the three sign gifts, will cease. Scripture says they, the three sign gifts, are for unsaved Jews.

Joel 2 to which Peter referenced in Acts 2 tells Israel there is a former and a latter rain. The former rain is Pentecost again a distinctly Jewish event while the latter rain will be during the great tribulation period which by no coincidence is a distinctly Jewish event.

The word of God is given for our edification that we might grow, mature and prosper in Christ. Of course it is of necessity that we read out of the scriptures what is written and not read into the scriptures what we want then to say. How does a constant reminder of judgment impending for Israel edify the church? From Babel forward tongues have always been associated with judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grace777x70]

The bible says the HS is received as a second work through the laying on of hands,not a abstract by product of hanging with God

Sometimes the Holy Spirit falls upon people without anything to do with the laying on of Hands as in Cornelius' household. Then again Paul laid his hands on the Ephesians for the Holy Spirit to come on them. Acts 19:1-7

Scripture also says that we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe too.

I think there is definitely a difference between having the Holy Spirit within ( as in receiving Christ and the new birth ) and having the Holy Spirit fill us for various purposes.

 

[popeye]

The gifts were given to edify and build up the body, yes.
But the gifts were NOT given to glorify the gift, but to glorify and make known THE GIVER of the gift(s)..
And all these gift(s) will cease...even prophecy...

Make sure that the one who has been endowed/empowered with these gifts understands it was for the building up of HIS BODY first and foremost..

And not our own.

Well sortof.

We have a personal intimate walk with Jesus.
The baptism of the HS makes the walk vastly more intimate.

That is number one.

Then,those fireballs get cast into the body of CHRIST and the unsaved world to make a difference.

What you are describing is ministry,and Ministry is supposed to come from heaven. That is WHY we need power

 

[notuptome]

Yes you are correct.

It is a amazing experience and those that reject it are missing a huge blessing. Huge.

I am glad I was saved at a full gospel church.

I SAW they had the baptism. I saw it and wanted it. It was about 6 months after conversion that I finally got it.

The cessationist carries a religious spirit. I believe there is a famine inside of them,but that spirit turn the famine into something other than hunger.

However,I did see a few hardened Baptists get zapped by God in revival.

Amazing how none of them confused what they received.

I believe the bottom line is hunger.

No hunger equals stagnation.

Stagnation begats luke warm believers. Mental salvation.

This is what causes one to question what it is that you got. We are saved by grace and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption the moment we trust Jesus Christ to save us from our sins. If we claim to be saved by any other means we lie to ourselves and are not saved but have received a false gospel.

We are to desire the sincere milk of the word of God to grow and mature in the body of Christ.

The Pentecostal and charismatic carries a religious spirit that is contrary to Christ. It attempts to add to Christ to prove Christ when His testimony is more than all that God requires.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[miknik5]

Sometimes the Holy Spirit falls upon people without anything to do with the laying on of Hands as in Cornelius' household. Then again Paul laid his hands on the Ephesians for the Holy Spirit to come on them. Acts 19:1-7

Scripture also says that we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe too.

I think there is definitely a difference between having the Holy Spirit within ( as in receiving Christ and the new birth ) and having the Holy Spirit fill us for various purposes.

I think you are right.

 

[wincam]

Nowhere does the Bible say the gifts will end this side of eternity.
It's only those who don't speak in tongues or prophecy, that say they have ceased.

The gifts were given to the Church, for the benefit of the Church, 1 Cor 12: 7 says they are given to the Church towards our profiting. And the Church is still here today, so are the God given gifts of the Spirit.

the bible does indeed say so and they did indeed end on the establishment of the Church and publication of the NT - see 1Cor.13:8 - anyway the gifts were only given before the establishment of the early Church and not later to all and sundry[Jn.14:17] or some and not all in the last days as at Acts.2:17 - wincam

 

[God4me]

Yes you are correct.

It is a amazing experience and those that reject it are missing a huge blessing. Huge.

I am glad I was saved at a full gospel church.

I SAW they had the baptism. I saw it and wanted it. It was about 6 months after conversion that I finally got it.

The cessationist carries a religious spirit. I believe there is a famine inside of them,but that spirit turn the famine into something other than hunger.

However,I did see a few hardened Baptists get zapped by God in revival.

Amazing how none of them confused what they received.

I believe the bottom line is hunger.

No hunger equals stagnation.

Stagnation begats luke warm believers. Mental salvation.

When I first got saved, The Pastor and other people kept asking me if I had received the baptism in the Holy Ghost yet, I was hungry for Him, but had wrong teaching and waiting meetings, So we would wait and wait and wait, but nothing happened, As I was told to wait for the promise,Acts 1: 4--5.
Then I found out that the gift has already been given, Acts 2: 4. Then Acts 2: 38 says the Holy Ghost is a gift, And gifts have to be received by faith, It didn't take long to be baptised in the Holy Ghost after I knew the truth.

You are so right, It's a wonderful experience, and those who haven't been baptised in the Holy Ghost, don't know what they are missing.

 

[miknik5]

Well sortof.

We have a personal intimate walk with Jesus.
The baptism of the HS makes the walk vastly more intimate.

That is number one.

Then,those fireballs get cast into the body of CHRIST and the unsaved world to make a difference.

What you are describing is ministry,and Ministry is supposed to come from heaven. That is WHY we need power

Okay?
Did I think this ministry is done in one's own power?
Or Holiness?

No, it is by the power and holiness of HIS NAME and HIS NAME alone.
And the ministry is only successful if GOD opens the eyes and ears of the heart of a man and reveals the TRUTH of HIS SON.