Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

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garee said:
I would say fleshly experience is not the validator of spirit life, the unseen .The word of God is that validator, as a perfect law not subject to change... alone..

Many today use what they call out of the body experience to prove God is with them or there is no God as our faithful Creator. .

Even Jesus at the beginning of his earthly ministry experienced what some call an "out of body experience," which was really another spirit revealing bringing in information, as that not seen in a false hope to a person.

Without moving one inch in the sand Satan the father of lies showed Christ all the kingdoms of the world and all the glory of it..

Again and again till the devil fled Christ would say, as it is written .with it representing the faith of God. It is the key that unlocks the gates of hell and make the devil flee. I would be careful in what you to attribute, as faith.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, "It is written" again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
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Nope,nope,nope

Experience is a hands on dynamic of a walk with a REAL LIVE SAVIOR,GOD,AND FRIEND.

AND that experience is validated by the word.

Experience comes before the word.

Anyone can get saved (experience) with NO BIBLE WITHIN A THOUSAND MILES.

I got saved with no bible,and don't know if any of my friends did either
 
notuptome said:
We are to desire the sincere milk of the word of God to grow and mature in the body of Christ.
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Except for the parts of the word that encourage believers to covet to prophesy and to earnestly desire spiritual gifts right? And those parts of the word that command us to let one speak in tongues and to let one interpret and to let the prophets speak, right? Oh yeah, and the part of the word that says not to despise prophesyings, right?

The Pentecostal and charismatic carries a religious spirit that is contrary to Christ.
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'Religious spirit'. Do you even know what that means? Do you even know what you are saying? Btw, why are you borrowing Charismatic terminology?

It attempts to add to Christ to prove Christ when His testimony is more than all that God requires.
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The idea of signs confirming the word of God as it is preached is a Biblical concept. The Bible doesn't teach that miracles that confirm the word are somehow contrary to the word. That is a made-up cessationist perspective that is contrary to scripture.
 
miknik5 said:
But he said if you can't decipher the tongue it was of NO edification to THE BODY (or even to unbelievers) but was edification unto one's own self.

What would be the point in speaking tongues if no one even understands what is being said?
The point being it is to build up HIS BODY of Believers...not our own.
If you speak tongues and it can't be understood, it is for you to speak in the tongue of angels to GOD...and to sing and praise and glorify HIM...between you and HIM...

Unless one can decipher what is being said, do not speak in tongues.
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Tongues with interpretation are for a public assembly. This is different from tongues used privately in prayer.

What is the point in a private tongue?

There is power in the spoken word. In prayer you speak to the people and situations and conditions you know about. But there are almost always people, situations, and conditions you DON'T know about. How do you speak to those? The Holy Spirit knows - too bad there isn't a way that the Holy Spirit, who does know, could speak thru me who doesn't know...


?
 
I am not coming down on one side or the other at the moment, but I do have a legitimate question. When I was a kid, one of my friends showed me how to speak "in tongues". He said he learned it in church. I have never had any reason to believe he was saved. I don't know if I was saved at the time or not.

Some years later, as an adult, another friend and I were goofing around "speaking in tongues" to one another. And even now, I can do it any time I like. I make no spiritual claim about it.

Also, there have been a number of comedians who have pretended they were speaking a foreign language when they were not. They made it sound German, Italian, French, etc. So obviously, the ability to "appear" to speak in tongues is a common human ability.

My first question is, respectfully, what is the difference between these experiences of appearing to speak in tongues and those that people believe come from God? How does one discern the difference?

(This is not a criticism. Merely an honest question.)

Another question I have also wondered about is that if one can "speak" in tongues, can one "write" in tongues? If so, would it be intelligible to someone somewhere, or would it just be gibberish?

How would one discern the difference between random writing and true tongues writing?
 
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EarnestQ said:
I am not coming down on one side or the other at the moment, but I do have a legitimate question. When I was a kid, one of my friends showed me how to speak "in tongues". He said he learned it in church. I have never had any reason to believe he was saved. I don't know if I was saved at the time or not.

Some years later, as an adult, another friend and I were goofing around "speaking in tongues" to one another. And even now, I can do it any time I like. I make no spiritual claim about it.

Also, there have been a number of comedians who have pretended they were speaking a foreign language when they were not. They made it sound German, Italian, French, etc. So obviously, the ability to "appear" to speak in tongues is a common human ability.

My first question is, respectfully, what is the difference between these experiences of appearing to speak in tongues and those that people believe come from God? How does one discern the difference?

(This is not a criticism. Merely an honest question.)

Another question I have also wondered about is that if one can "speak" in tongues, can one "write" in tongues? If so, would it be intelligible to someone somewhere, or would it just be gibberish?

How would one discern the difference between random writing and true tongues writing?
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One test of discernment is that the gifts will always ultimately glorify God. If the glory goes anywhere else, it is false.

I've heard of people writing things in an unknown foreign language that were later interpreted by someone who spoke that language, but I think that's probably a rarity. The Bible talks about speaking because there is power in the spoken word.

One thing I've noticed in charismatic/pentecostal services is the run-on interpretation... someone speaks a 30 second tongue, the interpreter goes on and on for half an hour. I tend to think these are of man, not God.
 
Another question I have had on the subject is whether or not those who believe they are speaking in tongues believe God to be controlling every muscle movement of their mouth?

Is every phoneme they utter exactly what God wants expressed? Or is there some percentage of human error in their phonemes?

Is God is specifically creating intelligible words and sentences in the person's mouth, or is something else happening?

I am not saying it is not happening. I just want to learn more about what is happening.
 
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that God wants a partnership with us. God created the universe and was in charge of it. But then God created man and told him, I'll walk with you, talk with you, lend you an ear and give you advice, but WHAT YOU SAY ADAM, that's what goes. God had authority but yielded it to man so that man can have partnership in bringing His will to bear on the universe.

When man gave that authority away, God could have reclaimed it, but then God would have been back in charge and that wasn't what He wanted. That's why He had to come as a man, so that when He took back authority it would be in a way that would give that authority back to man instead of solely to Himself.

I liken it to a sheriff and his deputies. The authority is held by the sheriff, but he doesn't go out and patrol the streets to enforce it. He has deputies who patrol and enforce his authority. A deputy doesn't do anything of his own authority, he enforces the authority of the sheriff. In the same way God has called upon us to be the enforcers of His authority.

That is why God gave us the gifts. They are the means by which we partner with God in bringing His will to bear in our fallen world. In essence, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are intended as a means to bring about the fruit of the Holy Spirit in this world.
 
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EarnestQ said:
Another question I have had on the subject is whether or not those who believe they are speaking in tongues believe God to be controlling every muscle movement of their mouth?

Is every phoneme they utter exactly what God wants expressed? Or is there some percentage of human error in their phonemes?

Is God is specifically creating intelligible words and sentences in the person's mouth, or is something else happening?

I am not saying it is not happening. I just want to learn more about what is happening.
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God gives us the words, we do the physical speaking of them. And as with all things human, we can screw that up.
 
RickyZ said:
God gives us the words, we do the physical speaking of them. And as with all things human, we can screw that up.
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How can you tell the difference between a word God wants you to say and something your own subconscious brings up? Does God control your muscles, or does He give you images and your subconscious translates that into mouth muscle movements (the way we do with normal speaking)?
 
You can tell if someone is a baby in speaking and it's the same way in tongues too. We can hear someone speak in tongues and it is obvious that they are mature in their speaking and have done a lot of it. The language being spoken out is mature and is easily recognizable as being different from someone saying the same grouping of syllables over and over.
 
RickyZ said:
One test of discernment is that the gifts will always ultimately glorify God. If the glory goes anywhere else, it is false.

I've heard of people writing things in an unknown foreign language that were later interpreted by someone who spoke that language, but I think that's probably a rarity. The Bible talks about speaking because there is power in the spoken word.

One thing I've noticed in charismatic/pentecostal services is the run-on interpretation... someone speaks a 30 second tongue, the interpreter goes on and on for half an hour. I tend to think these are of man, not God.
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I accept your statement about using discernment about whether or not something brings glory to God.

But my question was more along the lines of how to discern the difference between appearing to speak in tongues (which anyone can do) and that which people believe to come from God?

Thank you for your response.
 
God4me said:
You obviously have a different Bible to me, Because my Bible says the Gifts are for the Church, towards OUR profit.
And the eight operations certainly are for the Church as they show us mysteries, 1 Cor 14:2. Build us up, v4.
Our spirit prays, v 14--15. helps us praise God, V15--17. Are for interpreting to edify the Church, V26.

My Bible tell me that the unbelievers won understand tongues, 1 Cor 14: 21. The meaning of "Hear", is the same as, "Understand", in v2.

My Bible tells me that prophecy is to edify the Church. 1 Cor 14: 3.

So what Bible do you use??.
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You do realize that Paul writing in the book of Corinthians was correcting them not praising them?

You certainly use different meanings for the words you speak. Scripture must be consistent and not be taken differently in one place to the contradiction in another. To use the word prophecy in your context opens us to new previously unrecorded revelation from God. That of course would contradict what is written in Revelation.

Your bible tells you that tongues are for unsaved Jews and not for Gentiles. Every evidence of tongues in the book of Acts had unsaved Jews in attendance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
garee;2644410]I would say fleshly experience is not the validator of spirit life, the unseen .The word of God is that validator, as a perfect law not subject to change... alone..

sorry...but where is the Holy Spirit in all of that?

the NT tells us: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. I Cor. 2:14

I will articulate that a bit...if someone is depending on their own smarts or talent to understand what God is saying to our spirits? they will NOT get it...the Bible says they will not get it...and some folks are living proof of that...and I don't mean just outside the doors of a church...many who claim to be Christian REFUSE actually and simply REFUSE to accept that their walk with God does not consist of what they read in scripture...you BEGIN with the revealed will of God and walk in the spirit according to that will

Many today use what they call out of the body experience to prove God is with them or there is no God as our faithful Creator. .

that's not a biblical practice so that should be avoided of course

Even Jesus at the beginning of his earthly ministry experienced what some call an "out of body experience," which was really another spirit revealing bringing in information, as that not seen in a false hope to a person.

who are these 'some'...some have out of body experiences...some think Jesus had one...I certainly don't see that in scripture...so where do you get your 'somes' from? and truly I have no understanding of what you mean by the bolded type...maybe you could explain that

Without moving one inch in the sand Satan the father of lies showed Christ all the kingdoms of the world and all the glory of it..

what has that got to do with the topic? that's interesting for sure, but headed down the wrong highway

Again and again till the devil fled Christ would say, as it is written .with it representing the faith of God. It is the key that unlocks the gates of hell and make the devil flee. I would be careful in what you to attribute, as faith.

hey...I've told the father of all lies what is written to and it works....well of course it does since Jesus set that example
since you have no clue about my faith, you might take a page out of your own book...my faith is in Jesus Christ...where it belongs...

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, "It is written" again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

well I hope you don't do that...I probably did when I was quite a bit younger, but I was a bit of a handful apparently


Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

I won't argue with scripture IN CONTEXT...but again, how does that apply to this op...
 
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RickyZ said:
Tongues with interpretation are for a public assembly. This is different from tongues used privately in prayer.

What is the point in a private tongue?

There is power in the spoken word. In prayer you speak to the people and situations and conditions you know about. But there are almost always people, situations, and conditions you DON'T know about. How do you speak to those? The Holy Spirit knows - too bad there isn't a way that the Holy Spirit, who does know, could speak thru me who doesn't know...


?
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The power is in the word of God.

Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Jesus taught His disciples to pray but He never taught them to pray in tongues. Our relationship with our Father in heaven is open through Christ and does not require us to pray through any mediator like tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
presidente said:
Except for the parts of the word that encourage believers to covet to prophesy and to earnestly desire spiritual gifts right? And those parts of the word that command us to let one speak in tongues and to let one interpret and to let the prophets speak, right? Oh yeah, and the part of the word that says not to despise prophesyings, right?
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Your implication of the content of your words renders them invalid. There is no more prophecy that is future telling but prophecy that is forth telling of what the prophets have already spoken. There is no new revelation forthcoming from God.
'Religious spirit'. Do you even know what that means? Do you even know what you are saying? Btw, why are you borrowing Charismatic terminology?
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Man is religious by nature but he is not Spiritual by nature until he is born again in Christ.
The idea of signs confirming the word of God as it is preached is a Biblical concept. The Bible doesn't teach that miracles that confirm the word are somehow contrary to the word. That is a made-up cessationist perspective that is contrary to scripture.
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Here again you depart from the truth. Signs have always been like all of creation an evidence of Gods existence. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to draw men to Christ through the word of God. Convicting them of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome said:
The power is in the word of God.

Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Jesus taught His disciples to pray but He never taught them to pray in tongues. Our relationship with our Father in heaven is open through Christ and does not require us to pray through any mediator like tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8
Jesus taught His disciples to pray but He never taught them to pray in tongues. Our relationship with our Father in heaven is open through Christ and does not require us to pray through any mediator like tongues.
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now now...I'm pretty sure you are trying to slip one in there...WE ALL, that is I said ALL, KNOW, capish, comprehend, are aware of and savvy to boot...that Jesus, the same one you are trying to say had no use for tongues, said He had to go back to heaven so the FATHER could SEND the HOLY SPIRIT and when that happened, on the day of Pentecost...ALL...that is ALL ...everyone in the upper room...SPOKE IN TONGUES and the HOLY SPIRIT appeared as tongues of fire over their heads

Jesus was no longer on earth and there is NO...I said NO...evidence that ANYONE...I said ANYONE...prayed in tongues before the day of Pentecost

Listen....you can try all day to twist what is plain, but God is faithful and wants people to know that He has not changed

 
Roger? why don't you just come right out and tell the good folks what you really think about those who pray in tongues?

I mean I know what you think and some other members know what you think...because we have had this conversation before

you know...the part where you state that it is your belief that those who pray in tongues do so by the power of a demon?

so, now that's finally out in the open
 
ember said:
but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8



now now...I'm pretty sure you are trying to slip one in there...WE ALL, that is I said ALL, KNOW, capish, comprehend, are aware of and savvy to boot...that Jesus, the same one you are trying to say had no use for tongues, said He had to go back to heaven so the FATHER could SEND the HOLY SPIRIT and when that happened, on the day of Pentecost...ALL...that is ALL ...everyone in the upper room...SPOKE IN TONGUES and the HOLY SPIRIT appeared as tongues of fire over their heads

Listen....you can try all day to twist what is plain, but God is faithful and wants people to know that He has not changed
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This is a root error in Pentecostalism and charismatic folks. The Holy Spirit was given by Jesus prior to Pentecost. John 20:22.

Pentecost was a uniquely Jewish event and nothing like what goes on in todays Pentecostal charismatic churches. Speakers speak and the hearers cannot understand them where at Pentecost when they spoke all understood in their native tongue. Show me that in your church and I'll sign up.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
ember said:
Roger? why don't you just come right out and tell the good folks what you really think about those who pray in tongues?

I mean I know what you think and some other members know what you think...because we have had this conversation before

you know...the part where you state that it is your belief that those who pray in tongues do so by the power of a demon?

so, now that's finally out in the open
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That is thought provoking.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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