House of Cornelius and the law

[garee]

Hi again!

You wrote: "I would not say re-interpret but interpret according to His interpretation."

My response: God never said that any of His commands actually needs to be interpreted in some OTHER way such that the original command is, therefore, no longer in force.

Right?

Hi BibleGuy

Yes Right !

Sure, Torah portions can (and do) point to greater realities (for example, point to the work of Messiah, etc.), but that's no excuse to fail to obey those Torah portions.

Redemption,the better thing that accompanies salvation is not an excuse its payment made in full. The payment that causes us to go from death to eternal life.

Yes they must be obeyed according to His finished work which keeps us in grace. But no man can keep them without sinning, denying Christ in unbelief (no faith).The thing is he cannot deny us if he paid the wage of sin.

Where did God ever say we should interpret Torah portions in such a way that those portions should no longer be obeyed?

I submit that God never said such a thing.

Again he defines the word keep. Not like the person in Mathew 7 that offered His wonderful works that did do spite to God’s grace . Christ replied to him: I never knew you ,you worker of iniquity,depart from me


Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The wage for violating the least of the commandment is still eternal damnation, as in a person never arising to new-spirit life.

If a person in not in Christ because of Christ's work of faith. If they sin once the wage is forever separated from God. There is no work we can do that would aid in our salvation.It called grace in respect to unmerited favor.

So, neither should you, especially since we have an abundance of Scripture which confirms Torah SHOULD be obeyed.

The whole Bible must be obeyed .Choosing a few books from the whole law of God is not what I think he meant when he said obey.

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

That's good that you recognize that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the gospel. Now put that together with this verse... "With flames of fire God will take vengeance on those who know not God, and OBEY NOT the GOSPEL of His Son." How do we obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? We do the same. We die to ourself, bury our old sinful self in the watery grave of baptism, and are resurrected a new creature IN Christ. Baptism is how we get in Christ (Romans 6), and those in Christ will be saved.

 

[garee]

You completely ignored the Scriptural logic I set forth.

I'll say it again:

Sin is Torah-violation (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).

Thus, we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).

Thus, we should not violate Torah.

Thus, we should obey Torah!

Thus, we should not use "freedom" as a cover up for Torah-disobedience!

Now, you ask: "Do you sin?"

My response: I seek to obey Torah...if I slip...then I get up again...seeking to obey Torah, as Scripture commands.
I call scripture, law, every word, as Logos.

Logic would be our private interpretation of His interpretation. Its the law of faith, not the logic of a philosophical opinion .

You speak of sinning by violating the law you say we must keep perfectly ? Who pays the "eternal wage" every time you fall by sinning? Therefore according to James you do violate the whole law .;


When a person sins they need the grace, grace ,grace of Christ that comes from His finished work. If He from heaven does not first turn a person to hear Him as a work of His grace from heaven so that they then can repent .Then there is no "getting up seeking to obey what a person just denied".The wage must be paid in full.

His grace is sufficient. His power is perfected in our weakness in so much that we are sinners “redeemed” . Redemption better “thing “that accompanies salvation.

My response: Of course we need his mercy (Rom. 15:9, Gr. "eleos"). BUT, God's mercy (Gr. "eleos", Dt. 5:10, LXX) is not extended to everyone...but to those who OBEY the commands (Dt. 5:10).

His mercy is extended by His grace. The product of His work of faith. The reward he freely gives us with no cost on our behalf. He is the rewarder by which man can seek after him ....not what we do.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

That's good that you recognize that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the gospel. Now put that together with this verse... "With flames of fire God will take vengeance on those who know not God, and OBEY NOT the GOSPEL of His Son." How do we obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? We do the same. We die to ourself, bury our old sinful self in the watery grave of baptism, and are resurrected a new creature IN Christ. Baptism is how we get in Christ (Romans 6), and those in Christ will be saved.

Yes. And baptism is the baptism of repentance. I believe John the baptist, Jesus and Peter had it right when they said:

Matthew 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Repent from what one may ask ? From our sins, that they may be blotted out. And sin is the transgression of the Law:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Repenting is doing a 180 degree turn in your life back to the ways of God, which is keeping He's commandments.

 

[Trail-of-Truth]

Yes. And baptism is the baptism of repentance. I believe John the baptist, Jesus and Peter had it right when they said:

Matthew 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Repent from what one may ask ? From our sins, that they may be blotted out. And sin is the transgression of the Law:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Repenting is doing a 180 degree turn in your life back to the ways of God, which is keeping He's commandments.

View attachment 152067

Those are some great verses on repentance, but we must take all scripture into consideration. There are steps leading up to it, repentance surely being one of them, but the actual thing that saves us is the blood of Jesus Christ. And the bible says that water baptism is how we get into Christ, and that saves us (Romans 6:3, 1 Peter 3:21).

John baptized to prepare the people for the new way. For once Christ died and established His church, the way into it would be baptism.

 

[BibleGuy]

thanks for your concern! a great thing about interpreting scripture, is that we don't have to rely on our own understanding.

like Peter says,
"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Peter+1&version=NASB


now, when you say I'm "assuming the law was not REALLY about what is stated in the law", it's very true that a person, on their own power, will believe that lev 11 is about what goes into our mouths.

the same spirit that led Jesus to see things in scripture that an ordinary person wouldn't see also lives in believers.

Hi there!

You wrote: "the same spirit that led Jesus to see things in scripture that an ordinary person wouldn't see also lives in believers."

My response: Yikes! Sounds like you just gave yourself a license to re-interpret Scripture to discover it's REAL intent.

Jesus never said (or did) anything of the sort.

Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (not by the Spirit's new re-interpretation of what the Torah REALLY meant...). Mt. 4:4.

Jesus said our position in the coming kingdom is determined by our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (not by our newfangled allegedly "spirit-led" re-interpretations of what Torah REALLY meant...) Mt. 5:19

The Spirit testifies that TORAH (not some new interpretation of what Torah really meant) is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16).

So, I feel compelled to warn you to turn away from a dangerous license you've evidently given yourself to re-interpret Torah in light of alleged "real intent", despite the abundant Scriptural evidence that Torah should simply be obeyed precisely as given.

Please revise your position to come into alignment with Scripture.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

like Paul says in 1 cor 2
but a natural man does not "get" the things of the Spirit of God, they seem totally wacked to him; and he can't understand them, because they are spiritually grasped"

a "natural person" can certainly read torah and say what it obviously means to a natural human.

AND, Paul (a man of the Spirit!) told those same Corinthians that they should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), NOT merely some allegedly new re-interpretation of what the commands REALLY meant.

You can't pick-and-choose selective Pauline Scriptures, my friend.

You gotta account for ALL of them into a coherent synthesis...otherwise you're not doing your due diligence in verifying the true meaning and content of Pauline Scripture.

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

How can you use the new testament to teach absolute obedience to the law in the torah?

Love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. This fulfills the entire law and prophets. Jesus said that.

Is Jesus a false teacher or not?

Hello JustWhoIAm...thanks for asking!

You wrote: "How can you use the new testament to teach absolute obedience to the law in the torah?"

My response: Because that's what Jesus and His apostles/disciples DID and TAUGHT.

Sure...Love God with all your heart/soul/strength...

But note! That's JESUS applying Dt. 6 to you! (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to you).

And HOW does Dt. 6 say we should express this Torah-fulfilling love? Through OBEDIENCE (Dt. 6:25) to Torah commands.

John agrees (1 Jn. 5:3).

In fact, this Torah-obedient expression of love for God is a sufficient condition of ETERNAL LIFE (according to Jesus, Lk. 10:25-28).

AND, our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

AND, religious people who exemplify Torah-lessness (Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23) will be cast away....or even worse (see "anomia" in Mt. 13:41-42).

Paul likewise says we should KEEP God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), and where are these commands found?

The written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3) is where God's commands are found.

You wrote: "Love God, love your neighbor, love yourself. This fulfills the entire law and prophets. Jesus said that."

My response: Yes....FULFILLS (not REPLACES). WHY does love fulfill Torah? Because those who maximize love for God and others will maximize the extent to which they can faithfully and properly obey Torah.

I think maybe you've got the hidden (unstated) assumption that goes something like this: "love fulfills the law, so there's no need to obey the law...we just need to love".

However, such an assumption is completely unbiblical (even though it's widely erroneously embraced).

Please review the Scriptures I've quoted....and engage me on any other concern you might have.

I'll be happy to show you how my position is Scripturally-confirmed.

And, I'll be happy to show you how to defend my position against criticism others might bring against it.

My position is...after all....not really my position....it's the BIBLICAL position. I'm just trying to share it with you, so that you can benefit.

So, Jesus is not a false teacher...please believe and obey his Torah-obedient teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) whom He sends forth to properly represent His Torah-obedient Torah-teaching ministry. Remember: Jesus requires obedience to the greater AND lesser elements of Torah (Mt. 23:23).

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hello again,

I tell you truth, if a true believer in Christ was "carrying a dead animal on their shoulders, covered in semen or menstrual discharges clean" and at that moment the Lord appeared to gather the church, that believer with all of the fluids mention would immediately be changed into their immortal and glorified body and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Have you never read: "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"? It is our spirit that has been purified through faith. We are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Abraham did no work of his own, but was credited with righteousness because he believed God. James uses a wrong example citing that Abraham was credited with righteous when he was test with his son Isaac, but Abraham was credited with righteousness a year before Isaac was even born because he believed God when he said that he would give Abraham a son and that his offspring would be as numerous as the stars in the sky and because Abraham believed God regarding this is why he was credited with righteousness. Purely by faith. Believers are not saved by works at all, but by trusting in Christ who alone provided salvation by His work on the cross. As believers we should be zealous for good works, but not to be saved, but to glorify God and by doing so we also build up our treasures in heaven.

Yes...Abraham was righteous by faith....but Abraham ALSO obeyed the Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5).

We should imitate Abraham and likewise obey the Torah available to us!

You wrote: "As believers we should be zealous for good works, but not to be saved, but to glorify God and by doing so we also build up our treasures in heaven."

My response: Yes! And should these good works be Torah-obedient? or Torah-disobedient?

Jesus answer this for us (Mt. 5:19).

They should be Torah-obedient works which we also teach others to do, so that we will be called "great" (not "least") in the coming kingdom. Mt. 5:19.

Blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

So do you agree that the Lord dealt with man different ways through out the bible?

Also the profits did not see the mystery that was kept secret since the world began which was revealed to us through Paul.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

The gospel which Paul is speaking about can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 which states that by belief in the death, burial, and Resurrection of our dear Lord we are saved. We are also told of what happens when we add to the Word of God Revelations 22:18. Taking that into account anytime Paul tells us this gospel it is always by belief and faith, never are we told anything different by Paul when telling us this gospel.

That being said once we are saved by belief and faith in this gospel we become a new creature, dying to the flesh and living in the Spirit. Once we are being led by the Spirit we will not be led into breaking commandments, although unfortunately sometimes the flesh wins. But when we lose to the flesh and break a commandment the Lord has already taken care of that, He will pick us up and dust us off. That is the grace of God

Hello!

You wrote: "Once we are being led by the Spirit we will not be led into breaking commandments, although unfortunately sometimes the flesh wins."

My response: So we agree that Spirit-led people will NOT be led to disobey Torah?

Good!

Let's follow the Spirit and obey the Torah available to us (which includes the Torah of Moses).

And yes, God has dealt with people differently. (Dt. 5:3).

Thus, the Torah of Moses applies to us in ways which it did NOT apply to Abraham.

blessings...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

1 CORINTHIANS 10:27 But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no questions for the sake of conscience.



I am not concerned about eating unclean foods.

there are things set before me I won't eat,though. for example, under-cooked chicken.

Sounds a bit contradictory...

You say we should eat whatever is set before us...but then you say you won't eat under-cooked chicken.

Hmmm....

Need more explanation please!

BibleGuy

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Those are some great verses on repentance, but we must take all scripture into consideration. There are steps leading up to it, repentance surely being one of them, but the actual thing that saves us is the blood of Jesus Christ. And the bible says that water baptism is how we get into Christ, and that saves us (Romans 6:3, 1 Peter 3:21).

John baptized to prepare the people for the new way. For once Christ died and established His church, the way into it would be baptism.

Yes there are steps leading up to salvation like you said; Hearing, believing, Repenting, Confessing, Baptism. I would like to add baptism of the Spirit; being born again of the Spirit.

A lot of religious people are missing different aspects of those steps. Some heard and believed a different kind of gospel, some people have been baptized in water and never repented of their sins, some people are baptized in the Spirit but are not obedient to the commandments, and some are obedient to the commandments in the law only and have not the baptism of the Spirit in Christ. We need it all and not just a part of it as many people believe and commonly teach.

 

[Dan_473]

Do you eat swine or shellfish ? If so then that is not what you do (keeping God's laws).

will ham going into your mouth defile you?

if beef touches a dead animal, will it defile you if it goes into your mouth?

yes, I eat pork.

GALATIANS 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[Dan_473]

All things are lawful to those who already are obedient to the law, but that does not mean all things are beneficial to do just because you have a right to do it (like eating meat in front of a vegetarian, thereby causing and offense).

a strange understanding of All things are lawful.

like a barber who gives free haircuts to anyone who doesn't need one.




but I agree with you in this sense:

the law is intended for lawbreakers, so if you love your neighbor, no laws apply to you.

 

[BibleGuy]

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial.

It's not about what is lawful or not. It's about what's profitable, beneficial.

So Jesus was just joking when He said that obedience to LAW is a sufficient condition of eternal life?

Lk. 10:25-28.

Of course Jesus was not joking!

You've taken a verse out of context, and then ignored other verses, all to support an unscriptural position.

Why do you reject Lk. 10:25-28?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Hi BibleGuy

Yes Right !



Redemption,the better thing that accompanies salvation is not an excuse its payment made in full. The payment that causes us to go from death to eternal life.

Yes they must be obeyed according to His finished work which keeps us in grace. But no man can keep them without sinning, denying Christ in unbelief (no faith).The thing is he cannot deny us if he paid the wage of sin.



Again he defines the word keep. Not like the person in Mathew 7 that offered His wonderful works that did do spite to God’s grace . Christ replied to him: I never knew you ,you worker of iniquity,depart from me


Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

The wage for violating the least of the commandment is still eternal damnation, as in a person never arising to new-spirit life.

If a person in not in Christ because of Christ's work of faith. If they sin once the wage is forever separated from God. There is no work we can do that would aid in our salvation.It called grace in respect to unmerited favor.



The whole Bible must be obeyed .Choosing a few books from the whole law of God is not what I think he meant when he said obey.

Hello!


Again, you've misinterpreted the context of Mt. 7

Read again: Matthew 7 has Jesus casting WHICH PEOPLE away from Himself?

Answer: The people who exemplify TORAH-LESSNES (LAWLESSNESS, Gr. "anomia", Mt. 7:21-23).

And, if you likewise exemplify anti-Torah theology and practice (i.e., theology/practice which leads you to NOT obey a Torah portion which you could/should obey), then how are you not placing yourself at risk of this same awful consequence found in Mt. 7:21-23?

Just trying to make sense of your position, buddy....

best...
BibleGuy

 

[BibleGuy]

Logic would be our private interpretation of His interpretation. Its the law of faith, not the logic of a philosophical opinion .

You speak of sinning by violating the law you say we must keep perfectly ? Who pays the "eternal wage" every time you fall by sinning? Therefore according to James you do violate the whole law .;


When a person sins they need the grace, grace ,grace of Christ that comes from His finished work. If He from heaven does not first turn a person to hear Him as a work of His grace from heaven so that they then can repent .Then there is no "getting up seeking to obey what a person just denied".The wage must be paid in full.

His grace is sufficient. His power is perfected in our weakness in so much that we are sinners “redeemed” . Redemption better “thing “that accompanies salvation.



His mercy is extended by His grace. The product of His work of faith. The reward he freely gives us with no cost on our behalf. He is the rewarder by which man can seek after him ....not what we do.

Yikes....lots of problems here!

First, "Logic" is not defined as: "private interpretation of His interpretation".

Rather, "logical truths" are self-evident and necessary principles of rational thought.

For example, a proposition can not be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense.
There's no Scripture stating this fact, but it is a NECESSARY logical truth (without which, rational thought is impossible).

You can NOT deny this fact (unless you are truly irrational...in which case you are beyond help!)

But you are surely NOT irrational...you have simply not yet thought through your position.

So let's think better!

And, let's NOT use a bogus definition of "logic" in an effort to refuse to answer my simple question!

I'll try again:

1. Sin is Torah-violation (Rom. 3:20; 7:7; 1 Jn. 3:4).
2. Thus, we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15).
3. Thus, we should not violate Torah (from 1 and 2).
4. Thus, we should obey Torah (from 3).

AGAIN, which do you reject? 1? 2? 3? or 4?

If you reject 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you've rejected Scripture (and its logical consequences....no mere "private interpretation" here...)

AND, if you accept 1, 2, 3, and 4, then you MUST agree that we should obey Torah!

So which horn of this dilemma will you take?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

What so ever is set before you that eat, as long as it does not make you commit a sin. If the person has not told you what kind of food he is serving you and it might be swines flesh, then you are obviously to ask if he is serving you swine or other unclean food. If you know what you are to put into your mouth then you don't have to ask any questions. You don't ask if what he is serving has been offered to idols/god's for he's conscious sake.

sounds like, then, at an unbelievers house you would ask questions, and not just eat what was on the menu.

 

[BibleGuy]

sounds like, then, at an unbelievers house you would ask questions, and not just eat what was on the menu.

Yes Dan_473, Of course we should ask questions!

Suppose we are at an unbelievers house with our children...

And suppose they LOVE to watch evil movies...
Suppose they love to eat UNCOOKED pork...
Suppose they will be highly offended if you refuse to accept their complimentary (but illicit) forms of "massage service"...
Suppose they........(fill in the blank with whatever sin or distasteful thing you like!)

Shall we, then, participate in these sins (and distasteful and dangerous things) so as to not offend the unbeliever?

Of COURSE not!

Paul's instructions must be FULLY synthesized (not pick-and-choose synthesized).

Therefore, Paul's instructions must be interpreted within the broader context of Pauline Scripture, which REQUIRES that we KEEP (not ignore or disobey) Torah instructions (1 Cor. 7:19).

Remember: Paul's conception of sin FORCES us to embrace his Torah-obedient teaching...

1. Paul taught us to not sin (Rom. 6:15).
2. Paul taught that sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
3. Paul taught that Torah should NOT be disobeyed (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that Torah should be obeyed (from 3).

So which do you reject? 1? 2? 3? or 4?

If you reject any of these four, then you've rejected Scripture (and its logical consequences).

If you accept these four, then you MUST agree that Paul taught us to OBEY (not ignore, not re-interpret, not set aside while at an unbeliever's house, etc.) Torah!

Which do you reject?

1? 2? 3? 4?

best...
BibleGuy

 

[Dan_473]

Hi there!

You wrote: "the same spirit that led Jesus to see things in scripture that an ordinary person wouldn't see also lives in believers."

My response: Yikes! Sounds like you just gave yourself a license to re-interpret Scripture to discover it's REAL intent.

Jesus never said (or did) anything of the sort.

Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (not by the Spirit's new re-interpretation of what the Torah REALLY meant...). Mt. 4:4.

Jesus said our position in the coming kingdom is determined by our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience (not by our newfangled allegedly "spirit-led" re-interpretations of what Torah REALLY meant...) Mt. 5:19

The Spirit testifies that TORAH (not some new interpretation of what Torah really meant) is written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16).

So, I feel compelled to warn you to turn away from a dangerous license you've evidently given yourself to re-interpret Torah in light of alleged "real intent", despite the abundant Scriptural evidence that Torah should simply be obeyed precisely as given.

Please revise your position to come into alignment with Scripture.

best...
BibleGuy

sounds like you're not familiar with being led by the Spirit.

the level of confidence I have that I am a Christian, I have that same confidence that the Spirit leads me in understanding the Bible.


ROMANS 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.
ROMANS 8:15 For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”



here's the part I was especially thinking of

ROMANS 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;