Eternal Security and free choice for the Christian?

[PeterJens]

To any reader who wants to remain neutral. The problem with ideas is they create a way of thinking. If you go into the worlds they create, then ofcourse to a person who says the law is just to show failure, only a hypocrite would say they have succeeded. Equally if you hold the law is as it is written not the hyper legal version, then giving up and dwelling in sin is just defeat.

Now these two positions are self evident.

What I was talking about meeting Jesus is like a child meeting their favourite person in the whole world. He is the best, my Lord, my friend, my saviour, the one who transformed my heart and saved me and taught me the meaning of love and the love that dwelt within.

In logical communication there are points where we can agree. I understand how people turn this type of language around, but it is not words that speak meaning alone, but how these words are used.

What is the beauty of children. What they feel is what they feel, no filter or masking. Jesus calls us to live like this, our hearts reflecting His glory, as an outflow of our relationship with our Father. If believers live this life, they know my language, if not, God bless you, and may He bring your heart to life sometime in the future.

As an observation EG paints me as a legalist, which is odd, because it does not match my language but does match his beliefs, which is just projection.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well, that explains a lot.

Marked and noted that a false accusation charge was made, but no effort was made to clarify what the false accusation was.

 

[Budman]

As an observation EG paints me as a legalist, which is odd, because it does not match my language

He's not wrong. I've read enough of your posts to agree with him. You're a legalist because you add your works for the retention of salvation.

The center of your assurance isn't on the finished work of Christ, nor the biblical truth that salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.

Anyone who adds anything to the gospel of grace is indeed a legalist.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why don't you point out where the false accusation is?

I pointed out at least two false accusations. You want to keep hiding behind the ignore button? thats on you.

 

[Budman]

Marked and noted that a false accusation charge was made, but no effort was made to clarify what the false accusation was.

It's easily clarified. Read his posts. What are you afraid of?

 

[PeterJens]

Man centred salvation.

This label is true if you accept there is no relationship or transformation in the believer.
It is like saying we are robots with a programming error. We need rebooting and with a new operating system. We are not involved, it is purely the programmer who changes us.

If the view is we are a saved people so we can live a chosen life of love through the power of the relationship with God, then this is a gospel of growth and choice. This is a road of hope and victory, and as victory is gained over real issues, then encouragement and walking in communion and righteousness with God.

Now to a sinful heart in rebellion, it is much better to not repent or give in to the drivers but just accept ones fallen state is the place you should stay without hope, but respond to appreciate God because in defeat He says you are saved.

But the problem is simple, we are called to walk in righteousness without sin. If you say sin is ok, and you can do nothing about it, then the cross is not victory and means nothing. It strikes me a lot of christians believe this is where they are and where they will stay. That is truly sad.

 

[Budman]

But the problem is simple, we are called to walk in righteousness without sin. If you say sin is ok, and you can do nothing about it, then the cross is not victory and means nothing. It strikes me a lot of christians believe this is where they are and where they will stay. That is truly sad.

Have you managed to live a sin-free life yet, Pete?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As an observation EG paints me as a legalist, which is odd, because it does not match my language but does match his beliefs, which is just projection.

Let me get this straight.

I teach salvation by grace through faith
I teach that he who begins a good work in you WILL finish it
I teach I am saved solely by the finished work of Christ, That like the tax collector. I got on my knees to ashamed to even look up, And begged God to save a wretched soul such as me
I admit, Although I do not do the grave sins that most legalists want to push on people, that I still sin every day, And I ask God to expose my selfish ways, so I learn to serve others like he did because I am unable to on my own.

And I am the legalist?

Wow dude, You should stop you keep making things worse..

Lets look at you.

You believe salvation can be lost, Thus the cross is insufficient
You believe salvation is earned by doing (insert whatever you think has to be done to maintain salvation)
You believe you are righteous, even though the law states you are unrighteous, and are sinning and falling short of Gods glory, But that does not matter, Because you have your own set of rules and standards.

I have to laugh, then shake my head, Then admit, all I can do is pray for you. Because that is what it will take.. Thus I can only feel sorry for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I don't. IMO he's a noise generator.

lol.. The purest example of a strawman.

I could say the same thing about HRFTD, this all this is is a personal attack. and not even relative to the question that was asked.

How this continues is beyond my scope of reasoning..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Marked and noted that a false accusation charge was made, but no effort was made to clarify what the false accusation was.

Actually, in the first post I made the accusation, the whole post was a false accusation. In the second post I made, I highlighted and bolded the part which was false.

Do you EVER admit when you sin? or make a mistake? or you might be wrong (here you are wrong saying no effort was made to clarify)

 

[PeterJens]

It's easily clarified. Read his posts. What are you afraid of?

EG does not try and understand anothers position and just repeats his accusation he is missunderstood and everything he says and the position he holds is the only interpretation. That is simple brain-washing and indoctrination, and actually irrelevant.

I remember when I talked about giving up everything for Christ he called me a liar.
Again if I say I love Jesus and faith in the cross, I am a liar. If I say I walk in purity and righteousness, I am a liar.

Now it is impossible to talk to someone whose approach is just not taking what people say and turning it around, and then moan when simple observations about a lack of emotional openness to love and simple love expressions, that speaks to me of a hard and broken heart.

The only way he can blunt my words is to imagine me as an evil monster desiring to bring him down. But I am a humble, contrite heart who desires to know Jesus's spirit in my life and be a blessing to all I meet. But I am sure in some readers minds I am lying again. This kind of mindset is forever lost in its own imaginings.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And this person calls himself a christian, Who is following the law. Then why is he lying? How can a person sit there, tell a bold faced lie (not even a little white lie) and say he is a follower of God? [/B]

No one, and I mean No one I have ever heard has said it is impossible to do Gods will.. This is outright false accusations and bearing false witness.

Just yesterday someone commented that it was impossible to obey what Jesus said on the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) using Matthew 5:48 as a proof text. So your accusation of false accusation is entirely unwarranted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He's not wrong. I've read enough of your posts to agree with him. You're a legalist because you add your works for the retention of salvation.

The center of your assurance isn't on the finished work of Christ, nor the biblical truth that salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.

Anyone who adds anything to the gospel of grace is indeed a legalist.

the difference is, we point out his false accusations, and prove them wrong,

They just claim we make accusations with no proof, Even though we not only back our words wit evidence, But we explain why we see it the way we do..

All he can do is say I am a noise generator.. But he can't see he is steeped in a works based, Reward centered gospel.

he will sit there and in not so many words say we must earn salvation, then deny he teaches it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Man centred salvation.

This label is true if you accept there is no relationship or transformation in the believer.
It is like saying we are robots with a programming error. We need rebooting and with a new operating system. We are not involved, it is purely the programmer who changes us.

If the view is we are a saved people so we can live a chosen life of love through the power of the relationship with God, then this is a gospel of growth and choice. This is a road of hope and victory, and as victory is gained over real issues, then encouragement and walking in communion and righteousness with God.

Now to a sinful heart in rebellion, it is much better to not repent or give in to the drivers but just accept ones fallen state is the place you should stay without hope, but respond to appreciate God because in defeat He says you are saved.

But the problem is simple, we are called to walk in righteousness without sin. If you say sin is ok, and you can do nothing about it, then the cross is not victory and means nothing. It strikes me a lot of christians believe this is where they are and where they will stay. That is truly sad.

I will be honest peter. How can you have a relationship with God if you have to live your daily life not knowing if you will make it to heaven or not. Knowing that at any minute you could mess up, Or do something that will Cause God to turn his back on you and kick you out of his family

That is not a relationship. That's a dictatorship and a leader who will give you a sicker everytie you do good. But bring down the wrath of God when you mess up..

Paul and John both teach the bases, the foundation of our christian life is knowing What God gave is, the things he called eternal. Setting our minds on the things above (eternal things) and not on the things of this earth..

if we do not have this, We have no basis for having any kind of spiritual life. let alone any hope of reaching maturity if we are saved.

 

[PeterJens]

EG says I do not understand him at all, or anything he says. That is disingenous, and a lie. The tactic is to make the opposition appear an idiot, and simply not deal with the issues in question.

The gospel of transformation into perfection through discipleship is denied. This is the core doctrinal belief behind the holiness movement, now and historically.

If people cannot be honest enough to admit this is what they oppose, there is really nothing more to be said, because they are being dishonest, which is not walking in the light or in fellowship with Christ.

If you do not believe in truth and reducing arguments down to their core values, then ofcourse confusion brings legitimacy, but it only survives because it is founded on a lie, which does not want to be exposed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG does not try and understand anothers position and just repeats his accusation he is missunderstood and everything he says and the position he holds is the only interpretation. That is simple brain-washing and indoctrination, and actually irrelevant.

Another false accusation.

You are guilty of doing the very thing you judge others for doing.

You and HRFTD are masters of this line of reasoning..

 

[Budman]

The gospel of transformation into perfection through discipleship is denied. This is the core doctrinal belief behind the holiness movement, now and historically.

The Bible says we have been "made" perfect because we have been given the righteousness of Christ. (Hebrews 10:4)

People are instantly made holy when they put their faith in Jesus alone for their salvation.

You would be correct if salvation was not a gift.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG says I do not understand him at all, or anything he says. That is disingenous, and a lie.

Dude I opened a thread proving you were a liar and did not know what I believed. You did nothing to refute what I said.
You still can't

You still over and over claim I believe stuff I have never stated, I do not believe, and would never teach to anyone.. Yet you can;t see it.

The tactic is to make the opposition appear an idiot, and simply not deal with the issues in question.

Then why do you continue to use this tactic?

The gospel of transformation into perfection through discipleship is denied. This is the core doctrinal belief behind the holiness movement, now and historically.

Here, You are either sinless, or you have failed to live up to your own ideology..

If people cannot be honest enough to admit this is what they oppose, there is really nothing more to be said, because they are being dishonest, which is not walking in the light or in fellowship with Christ.

You should put this last statement in a mirror and read it to yourself.

If you do not believe in truth and reducing arguments down to their core values, then ofcourse confusion brings legitimacy, but it only survives because it is founded on a lie, which does not want to be exposed.

Like your foundation? Works?

Its not the cross..

My foundation is Christ, and the cross is its power.. i pray so hard one day you will see this power..

 

[PeterJens]

I will be honest peter. How can you have a relationship with God if you have to live your daily life not knowing if you will make it to heaven or not. Knowing that at any minute you could mess up, Or do something that will Cause God to turn his back on you and kick you out of his family

Your construct is a straw man, which is not true. Any created being who sins falls out of grace with God. Satans rebellion was complete, with no reconciliation.

We walk with Christ not because we hope to be in heaven, but because this is heaven on earth, the Kingdom here.
While walking with Christ there is no uncertainty as you describe. Your image is like saying you are never really married unless you know your partner will never be unfaithful to you. No, you take the risk that this may happen, but you want to spend the rest of your life with them. Walking with Christ is taking this risk as well, or maybe that is actually too difficult for you to take on board.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your construct is a straw man, which is not true. Any created being who sins falls out of grace with God. Satans rebellion was complete, with no reconciliation.

Thank you, You just proved me right.

Now stop saying I say you teach things which you do not.

We walk with Christ not because we hope to be in heaven, but because this is heaven on earth, the Kingdom here.
While walking with Christ there is no uncertainty as you describe. Your image is like saying you are never really married unless you know your partner will never be unfaithful to you. No, you take the risk that this may happen, but you want to spend the rest of your life with them. Walking with Christ is taking this risk as well, or maybe that is actually too difficult for you to take on board.

How can you walk with God with no hope? Our faith is based on hope. if you have no hope you have no faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for..

so again, thanks, You just proved me right (I am not proud of that, I am saddened by the fact you can't see it)

and again I will ask, How can you claim to walk with God in a relationship apart from hope?

can you answer that? not for my sake, but for you own?