Why Joseph Prince is a Cancerous Growth within God's People

[eternally-gratefull]

How is it I do not feel condemnation everyday from the law and yet you do.

Because you think you obey the law. and are seen as righteous?

You hold that you are free from condemnation. It sounds to me like you are saying everyday you knowingly sin. Now you have been a christian for many years and claim some authority yet continue in blatant rebellion.

lol.. There are many times a day I look to self. we all do. To say we are "others focused" 24/7 is to, well deceive ourselves (1 john 1)

Jesus said the first and greatest command is to love the lord our god with all we have.. Everyone fails on this command alone, Yet Jesus goes further, Love our neighbor (anyone we see) the same way. which we can't do this either.

So two commands you can't keep in one 24 hour period.. It does not mean you willingly sin.. Just another strawman..

I cannot take you seriously because it is like a sinner justifying their lostness and then saying Christ has set them free, yet everyday they find they are not free at all, but repeat the same behaviours they regard as sin. How can you claim to be a believer and yet give in to the kingdom of darkness without even a fight. It is true on your testimony you cannot claim to be walking in righteousness and purity.

Yep. You continue to prove you do not know me. You can't take me seriously, because you refuse to sit there, Open your heart, and actually listen to what we have to say.. We have been over this for well over a year now, and you still do not comprehend a thing I believe. That should tell you a lot!

But this is what Jesus talked about being in darkness, hiding sin from the light. Why should I believe any words you say as you testify rather than being obedient to Christ you set your heart against Him and do not keep His commands.

Paul exhorts people to examine themselves and their behaviour to see if they are in Christ or not. And if not to repent and do that which God convicts them to do in righteousness and holiness.

I have examined myself. That's why I KNOW I STILL SIN. and thus have to rely on God all day long..

when are you going to examine yourself. and realize you do too?

 

[PeterJens]

No they do not, and they have stated such over and over again. I have seen it, I have even asked tham that myself.
I have seen Grace777 say not only is confession important, but also that one of the jobs of the HS is to convict of sin..
some people either do not read well. Or selectively read only what they want to read.

I have to say EG I do not spend a vast amount of time reading these threads.
If people have changed their position as regards conviction of sin, that is a good step.

If sin is convicted by the word, the Holy Spirit and ones conscience, then repentance is the next step.
Repentance which is agreeing the action, thoughts etc were wrong, and a commitment is made to do something different, the desire is expressed to be forgiven, and the trust is in Christ that He forgives us.

Now if this is where people have got to, then little separates us. But I doubt this because yesterday you were telling me at length about repentance being just agreeing with God, and not being specific about certain behaviour etc.

But I also do not believe certain people because they say things which appear like agreement but are actually another version of the same ideas, but with a more acceptable face. Call me old fashioned, once bitten twice shy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The hyper grace crowd are camping out on the indicatives,,,what Christ has done, but refuse to go on with the imperatives. They think the indicatives are sufficient for a fruitful walk. They may be the basis for our walk, just as the Paschal lamb was the basis for the Israelites walk, but there comes a time we are to follow and look to Christ...continually, not ONLY our position.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:1-4)

I walk by the grace of a living risen Savior, looking to and actively depending on Him, not a cleverly crafted doctrine/formula of man.

Who does this Crossnote? I am asking honestly (I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see what you are seeing, because honestly, I do not see it). We must not be reading the same comments from people. Because I have yet to see anyone in here lately (well one who thought he was sinless) who believes or walks in this way..

I see so many people focused on the imperatives, but reject the indicative, But not the other way around,, If I missed it, Please show me an example where someone said this..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now if this is where people have got to, then little separates us. But I doubt this because yesterday you were telling me at length about repentance being just agreeing with God, and not being specific about certain behaviour etc.

see. Here we go again, I never said this either..

I said repentance is about changing our mind to agree with God, about all things, and is a continual every day thing.

I also said, We can't repent of the same sin over and over, If you already agree it is a sin, Then to repent of that sin would be to change you mind, and say it is not a sin now..

 

[Cee]

Yes I agree. We behold Him. The difference is that Moses wasn't a new creation. We are.

We have an inward glory in us. He had an outward (or reflection) on Him. It also faded. The glory we carry does not fade.

12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16.But when one[SUP]c[/SUP] turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord[SUP]d[/SUP] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,[SUP]e[/SUP] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

So I am in agreement with you. We see Him. And as we see Him we discover who we are because we are made in His image. And as we look at Him we are transformed into the same image.

I do not believe we look at ourselves. We look at Him. What I am saying is that when you look at you, cuz your life is hid in Christ, you have to look at Him.

That's precisely what IN CHRIST means.

7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

We are new creations through the ministry of the Spirit. The ministry of death was the commands on stone tablets.

In regards to identity;

Since your posts appear to show you don't believe it is important.

Answer me this...

Why was Jacob renamed Israel?
Abram into Abraham?
Sarai into Sarah?
Simon into Peter?
Saul into Paul?

Especially considering the Bible is so clear that a person's name was considered a precursor to their destiny.

C.

Scripture says that Christ's glory is reflected off of us when we behold it, which transforms us into his image. This is a reference to when GOD's glory was mirrored off of Moses' face from beholding GOD on Mt Sinai.

Now we all with unvailed face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:18

And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him. Exodus 34:35​

The verse you quoted says nothing about being transformed into Christ's image by beholding ourselves in a mirror. It simply says that we don't have a clear view of him yet. Beholding yourself in a mirror will only bring you death.

 

[PeterJens]

Because you think you obey the law. and are seen as righteous?
lol.. There are many times a day I look to self. we all do. To say we are "others focused" 24/7 is to, well deceive ourselves (1 john 1)

Jesus said the first and greatest command is to love the lord our god with all we have.. Everyone fails on this command alone, Yet Jesus goes further, Love our neighbor (anyone we see) the same way. which we can't do this either.

So two commands you can't keep in one 24 hour period.. It does not mean you willingly sin.. Just another strawman..

Your attitude is very arrogant towards God. In your eyes Moses was a sinner and never righteous in Gods eyes.
If this is so, why was he the only person able to talk in private with God in the holy of holies?

You say when God says love Him with everything you have you cannot think about anything else or do simple work, because that is sin. This is how absurd you have become. A child does not love his parents because he gets involved in playing.

This is the level your morality works at. Not only do you condemn yourself you also condemn me, which is the work satan attempts to do. You are neither God nor my judge, nor do you know my actions. Yet with 100% authority you stand in judgement over me, say I am sinner, fallen from grace and worthy of hell. This is a very arrogant and sin itself.

Beware that you are not judging Gods work and His truth in a fellow believer. If this does not worry you at all, I would suggest you know less about God than you claim, and I counsel humbleness before judgement falls on you.

 

[crossnote]

Who does this Crossnote? I am asking honestly (I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to see what you are seeing, because honestly, I do not see it). We must not be reading the same comments from people. Because I have yet to see anyone in here lately (well one who thought he was sinless) who believes or walks in this way..

I see so many people focused on the imperatives, but reject the indicative, But not the other way around,, If I missed it, Please show me an example where someone said this..

Pleeze, that's what this thread is mainly about. You can start with post 611, he seems to be a spokeman here as well as many of Grace777s posts.
I was challenged right off the bat when I brought up the verse that said 'we are to mortify the flesh'. Their answer? 'Know who you are in Christ'. That may be the basis but there still remains the struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your attitude is very arrogant towards God. In your eyes Moses was a sinner and never righteous in Gods eyes.
If this is so, why was he the only person able to talk in private with God in the holy of holies?

You say when God says love Him with everything you have you cannot think about anything else or do simple work, because that is sin. This is how absurd you have become. A child does not love his parents because he gets involved in playing.

This is the level your morality works at. Not only do you condemn yourself you also condemn me, which is the work satan attempts to do. You are neither God nor my judge, nor do you know my actions. Yet with 100% authority you stand in judgement over me, say I am sinner, fallen from grace and worthy of hell. This is a very arrogant and sin itself.

Beware that you are not judging Gods work and His truth in a fellow believer. If this does not worry you at all, I would suggest you know less about God than you claim, and I counsel humbleness before judgement falls on you.

This is your problem to a T, YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHTOEUS. (You as much as admitted that when you said you did not sin, you just messed up every now and then)

As Jesus said, A righteous person does not need saved, So he went to the sick, He came to heal.

ps, you just placed Moses in the same category as Christ, who is the only one able to enter the holy of holy's apart from Grace.. Moses could not just walk in. nor could any priest, a priest who did not do as was required by law would be killed instantly. That's why they had to tie a rope to them, so they could drag them out if they did not make it.

You can not understand me, because you think you are so far above me..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pleeze, that's what this thread is mainly about. You can start with post 611, he seems to be a spokeman here as well as many of Grace777s posts.
I was challenged right off the bat when I brought up the verse that said 'we are to mortify the flesh'. Their answer? 'Know who you are in Christ'. That may be the basis but there still remains the struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

what is this thread about?

A hated attack on someone who can not defend himself,

as for post 611. He claimed a truth of God, and that's a bad thing?


He spoke of the faith rest life, Did not jesus promise us rest if we trust in him? Having a changed life is based on rest, If we rest in him, our sin issues will lesson. The law is not going to help us over come sin as the legalist want us to believe.

I am sorry bro, but I think your reading things which are not there.

 

[popeye]

I see that. It seems she can call anybody whatever name she likes, make any false accusation she likes, then when she gets called to the carpet, she'll claim some form of persecution (in my case, I'm out to "derail" her thread") and then puts the "offender" on ignore.

She is quite a phenomenon in this fellowship.

I can not see what she posts.

Thank you Jesus.

 

[Cee]

This is incorrect.

And this is for EVERYONE on this thread who continually misrepresents my position. Not just you.

Cuz I have no problem with you (or any of you)

The hyper-grace crowd as you call them, believe that the indicatives empower them to follow the imperatives.

Where as others believe the imperatives REPLACE the indicatives.

Completely ignoring Scriptures that don't stand under their theology. Once one starts to allow the Scripture as a whole be true. How it all works together becomes clear. Not one or the other, but both together.

Not a single person in this thread has disagreed with the imperatives, but somehow in your past experiences this belief has been created because you all keep saying it and we keep disagreeing with it. And instead of believing that maybe you don't quite UNDERSTAND our position, instead I hear things like "we don't understand what we believe". Or "we are lying".

No just maybe, YOU don't understand what we believe. And people are probably tired of being told that you do. And continually telling you over and over and over that what you are saying is not true.

Do you realize how completely rude it is to tell someone what they believe, or that they don't understand what they believe, or to tell them that they are a liar?

I will tell you what I believe so we are clear.

My identity IN CHRIST empowers me to follow the COMMANDS of Christ joyfully.

And if you can't say that about yourself, then maybe there might be something for you to learn instead of thinking you understand our position.

We do NOT believe that we have to try to become new creations through sin consciousness and struggling and being in a place out of rest. We instead do believe that the work God started He is faithful to continue. And this might come as a shock, but the commands of God are NOT burdensome. And we actually WANT to do what He says! Why? Because we are living out of our new identity - that has the LAWS of GOD written on our heart and minds. Which means we both desire and know His ways. Because He put it there!

We celebrate and rejoice in who He created us to be. And we also receive feedback whenever our BEHAVIOR doesn't line up with our true identity in Him.

C.

The hyper grace crowd are camping out on the indicatives,,,what Christ has done, but refuse to go on with the imperatives. They think the indicatives are sufficient for a fruitful walk. They may be the basis for our walk, just as the Paschal lamb was the basis for the Israelites walk, but there comes a time we are to follow and look to Christ...continually, not ONLY our position.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:1-4)

I walk by the grace of a living risen Savior, looking to and actively depending on Him, not a cleverly crafted doctrine/formula of man.

 

[Depleted]

Does it really need to be said that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world ,
but the whole world has not accepted His propitiatory sacrifice on their behalf,
because many are still blinded by the god of this world?

Well, since Jesus described who he meant by the "whole world" in the very next dependent clause and even took it out further in the following sentences, you're free to keep saying whatever you want, but does it have to be on a post about Joseph Prince?

 

[Cee]

Amen.

This is referencing the body. We shall receive glorified bodies.

That's why this context says "mortal bodies" and "perishable".

Our souls and spirits are not perishable. But are bodies are because of sin/sickness in the world.

Its the old tent that is perishing.

C.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Cor 15:51-58

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So I am in agreement with you. We see Him. And as we see Him we discover who we are because we are made in His image. And as we look at Him we are transformed into the same image.

I do not believe we look at ourselves. We look at Him. What I am saying is that when you look at you, cuz your life is hid in Christ, you have to look at Him.

That's precisely what IN CHRIST means.

And this is precisely the kind of equivocation that characterizes hyper grace doctrine. Focus on your identity of who you really are in Christ. But really we're not looking at ourselves, we're looking at Christ. It's just nonsensical garbage.

 

[PeterJens]

This is your problem to a T, YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHTOEUS. (You as much as admitted that when you said you did not sin, you just messed up every now and then)

I do not think I am righteous, Jesus has made me righteous.
If you are not righteous through redemption and walking with Christ, why are you a christian.

We are a holy people, called unto God. All the passages in scripture the way you read them, is only because of the blood of Christ and imputed righteousness, are they acceptable, not because they have been clean and are walking in righteousness.

You literally do not believe anyone anywhere in Christ can walk righteously. It is why everyone in your theology is doomed to Hell, and christian are not in the Kingdom, only inherited from Christ, as if Christ was actually each one of us.

In your world the people of God are just as slaves to sin as the world, just they have a ticket of being looked at as if they are not. That is miss-understanding sin and righteousness, which is my point all along. In your world Christ can never embrace you as a friend, sinless, righteous, but as a stinking sinner, but with a cloak of Jesus's righteousness over Him.

This is so disfunctional, and is only used because your life is just full of failure. People have said christians who do not claim health and wealth are like being on a ship in the worst cabins when they could claim the best.

But rather you have no rights to be in the Kingdom, because you say His cross counts for nothing in your life. There is nothing it sounds like you can say, that the Lord has built, I am here because the Lord led me and showed me what to do.

I can say he changed me, my family, my friends, my work, my ambitions, my time, my energy, my focus, my enthusiasm. There is nothing in my life that He has not effected, I am His handywork. And I will say Amen, and Praise the Lord, for He is victorious, His love does overcome and nothing in this world can stand against it, once you begin to see who He really is and how he can remake you.

 

[Cee]

I'd just like to add to your post because it might bless you tremendously.

Repenting of a sin, means to turn away from it, but also to turn toward truth.

Jesus said repent for the Kingdom of God is in front of you.

The Kingdom is His reign and rule. And we are freed by truth. We know this because He said and the truth shall set you free. Because whom the Son sets free is free indeed. One thing I've learned is that it's not enough to just repent from sin, we also need to know the truth that sets us completely free.

For instance, I dealt with fear a lot, I was so attacked, I had depression, worry, panic attacks, etc. It wasn't until I learned that PEACE was to reign in my mind and that God didn't give me a spirit of fear, that I was able to distinguish what a spirit of fear was and I wasn't the problem.

So I didn't want fear, I knew fear wasn't from God, but knowing peace allowed me to fully repent (change my mind) and agree with truth (Kingdom) to see it manifest (parable of 4 condition of hearts explain this).

C.

see. Here we go again, I never said this either..

I said repentance is about changing our mind to agree with God, about all things, and is a continual every day thing.

I also said, We can't repent of the same sin over and over, If you already agree it is a sin, Then to repent of that sin would be to change you mind, and say it is not a sin now..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We do NOT believe that we have to try to become new creations through sin consciousness and struggling and being in a place out of rest. We instead do believe that the work God started He is faithful to continue. And this might come as a shock, but the commands of God are NOT burdensome. And we actually WANT to do what He says! Why? Because we are living out of our new identity - that has the LAWS of GOD written on our heart and minds. Which means we both desire and know His ways. Because He put it there!

You're a good salesman, but you're being either dishonest or naive. Hyper grace teaches that Christ's imperative to forgive so that we can be forgiven can be ignored. It also also teaches that acknowledgment of sin is not necessary to be cleansed of sin (1 John 1:9).

It's just a sales pitch, that's all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not think I am righteous, Jesus has made me righteous.

Jesus gave you righteousness.. Jesus did not make you sinless

If you are not righteous through redemption and walking with Christ, why are you a christian.

I am righteous by the blood of Christ, and redeemed, that's why I am a Christian.

We are a holy people, called unto God. All the passages in scripture the way you read them, is only because of the blood of Christ and imputed righteousness, are they acceptable, not because they have been clean and are walking in righteousness.

So your sinless? Oh wait, you think you are...like I said, that explains everything.

here is the difference between you and me Peter.

I, Like pau, Realise I am a wretched person.. But I praise God everyday because he not only changes me, exposes my sin, and shows me where I still need to grow. He does not disown me because I can not live up to his standard (which is perfection by the way, Mess up and screw ups would mean you are not meeting Gods standard)

You literally do not believe anyone anywhere in Christ can walk righteously. It is why everyone in your theology is doomed to Hell, and christian are not in the Kingdom, only inherited from Christ, as if Christ was actually each one of us.

I never said this, once again, You PROVE you do not listen to a word I say.

A Christian can walk righteous, He can not BE RIGHTEOUS..

Notice the difference? I can walk in righteousness, by seeking after the things of the spirit. But I am not righteous, because they requires perfection. and only one man ever lived up to that standard, and that's Christ.


do us both a favor peter. If your not going to try to understand me, Then at least show some respect and admit you can't understand what I believe, instead of trying to say I believe this and that, when I don't.

 

[Magenta]

Well, since Jesus described who he meant by the "whole world" in the very next dependent clause and even took it out further in the following sentences, you're free to keep saying whatever you want, but does it have to be on a post about Joseph Prince?

John the apostle said it, in 1 John 2:2.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

So did John the Baptist, in John 1:29

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look,
the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

I am nor sure to which Scripture you refer. Also, what each person types is a post. We are putting our posts in a thread, or on a message board. Since the topic was under discussion from others in this very thread, yes, I posted what I did in response to what I was reading, for the sake of clarity. People get maligned in all manner of ways here. I loathe to see it. Sometimes the malignment is some simple error that appears glaringly obvious to me. Other times it seems deliberate. Either way, if I feel moved to try to clear something up, I do. I know sometimes I will be maligned for it.

 

[Magenta]

Amen.
This is referencing the body. We shall receive glorified bodies.
That's why this context says "mortal bodies" and "perishable".
Our souls and spirits are not perishable. But are bodies are because of sin/sickness in the world.
Its the old tent that is perishing.
C.

There is no Scripture to affirm what you say about the soul not being perishable, but many that affirm that the soul that is found at the time of judgement does indeed perish, for the wages of sin is death, and Who is to be feared but He Who has the power to destroy both body and soul? Still, many peddle the idea of an immortal soul despite absolutely no Scriptural support.