Whats the deal with Catholics?
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The Mary in the scriptures is identified as a dead asleep no longer having anygpart here forever more and not reigning as if she was alive on earth like us saints that are.. So their Mary is not the Mary found in the scriptures that they worship as a god, its a disembodied worker with a familiar spirit that they worship as one of the many gods called patron saints. The number of the legion is 3500 and growing every time the Pope appoints a new one.
A study in 1 Thessalonians 4 and others like it will give a person the truth, as it is written, Its just that as it is written (the scriptures of it self is of no authority without the approval of their fathers .The Catholic's final authority according to who they measure their kind of faith by.
A study in 1 Thessalonians 4 and others like it will give a person the truth, as it is written, Its just that as it is written (the scriptures of it self is of no authority without the approval of their fathers .The Catholic's final authority according to who they measure their kind of faith by.
Still looking for the answer to this...
How would you know Mary hears you?
Is she omnipresent and omniscient where she can hear ALL the prayers coming at her at the same time from millions of catholics?
This would take a God-like attribute to perform.
Also where in Scripture do you have a promise that we can ask petitions to those who have gone on before us?
How would you know Mary hears you?
Is she omnipresent and omniscient where she can hear ALL the prayers coming at her at the same time from millions of catholics?
This would take a God-like attribute to perform.
Also where in Scripture do you have a promise that we can ask petitions to those who have gone on before us?
M
Which denomination teaches exact truth? I would say they all fail, this is why when I am asked my denomination I always reply with "The Bible". The Bible is the only exact truth, all other teachings have corrupted with time because they are man-made and man is imperfect.
With Catholicism they have deviated away from the Bible more than most - it's all about religion and doctrine, despite this I do believe that some RC's are saved because God knows their hearts. Reading Bestil's comments here I'm inclined to believe he has a heart for God - the gentle and respectful way he answers criticism and his obvious love for God. Who knows the absolute truth? The Bible can be and constantly is interpreted in different ways - so many different translations do not help and man generally manipulates it into the way he wants it to read. How many of us non-Catholics argue among ourselves in the BDF?! I believe that if we are to help those we believe are unsaved we simply encourage them to not only read but to study their Bible's, preferably in a group scenario where you get many views you can pool together and discuss.
Having said all this I feel very uneasy with the rosary beads, "hail Mary" and all the other stuff that is not Biblical.
Blessings all.
With Catholicism they have deviated away from the Bible more than most - it's all about religion and doctrine, despite this I do believe that some RC's are saved because God knows their hearts. Reading Bestil's comments here I'm inclined to believe he has a heart for God - the gentle and respectful way he answers criticism and his obvious love for God. Who knows the absolute truth? The Bible can be and constantly is interpreted in different ways - so many different translations do not help and man generally manipulates it into the way he wants it to read. How many of us non-Catholics argue among ourselves in the BDF?! I believe that if we are to help those we believe are unsaved we simply encourage them to not only read but to study their Bible's, preferably in a group scenario where you get many views you can pool together and discuss.
Having said all this I feel very uneasy with the rosary beads, "hail Mary" and all the other stuff that is not Biblical.
Blessings all.
Hi crossnote.
I agree. You've hit a root if not the root.
Where do the Scriptures say that?
Where?
Do you know when the first Bible was codified?
And a warning to Catholics, as well. The CC believes that the Scriptures are "materially" sufficient. Everything we need to know is there in implicit or explicit form. We don't believe that it is "formally" sufficient meaning that everyone can just pick up a Bible and get the correct meaning out of it. The thousands of Christian denominations with varying beliefs all going by the Bible alone is a testament to that.
Things like infant Baptism come to mind. Using the Bible only, some denominations refuse to Baptize infants. Using the Bible only, some denominations will Baptize infants.
Jesus didn't condemn all traditions, though. Or Paul couldn't have written:"So, then, brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions..." (2 Thess. 2:15)
If we really look closely at this, we see that the Bereans were commended for accepting Paul's oral teaching about Jesus (tradition) and they checked it out against the O.T. to see if it was true. The Thessalonians rejected Paul's oral teaching. The Thessalonians were more of the "going by scriptures alone" group and refused Paul's teaching.
All Scripture is....yes. But this doesn't say that ONLY Scripture is. Nowhere does the Bible say that God's Word is limited to writing.
God Bless.
I agree. You've hit a root if not the root.
Where do the Scriptures say that?
Where?
Do you know when the first Bible was codified?
And a warning to Catholics, as well. The CC believes that the Scriptures are "materially" sufficient. Everything we need to know is there in implicit or explicit form. We don't believe that it is "formally" sufficient meaning that everyone can just pick up a Bible and get the correct meaning out of it. The thousands of Christian denominations with varying beliefs all going by the Bible alone is a testament to that.
Things like infant Baptism come to mind. Using the Bible only, some denominations refuse to Baptize infants. Using the Bible only, some denominations will Baptize infants.
Jesus didn't condemn all traditions, though. Or Paul couldn't have written:"So, then, brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions..." (2 Thess. 2:15)
If we really look closely at this, we see that the Bereans were commended for accepting Paul's oral teaching about Jesus (tradition) and they checked it out against the O.T. to see if it was true. The Thessalonians rejected Paul's oral teaching. The Thessalonians were more of the "going by scriptures alone" group and refused Paul's teaching.
All Scripture is....yes. But this doesn't say that ONLY Scripture is. Nowhere does the Bible say that God's Word is limited to writing.
God Bless.
Mary cannot hear our prayers. Why you ask? Because Mary is not Omnipresent. Only God is Omnipresent. Also Mary cannot answer your Prayer because Mary is not Omniscience. Only God is Omniscience.To claim Mary can hear your prayers and answer your prayer is claiming Mary is equal to God.
There are billions of Catholics in the World and if Mary can hear our prayers then she can only hear those next to her. Which means in your lifetime there is a 99.99999999999999% chance Mary will never hear your Prayer.
So tell me why do you see nothing wrong with making Mary equal to God?
Like i said before you Catholics have been deceived by Satan into Worshiping Mary as a god.
You can spin it all you want, but God cannot allow those in Heaven who Worship Mary as their god. Your Immortal Soul is in danger of Hell Fire.
Billions of Catholics have died and are facing Eternity in the Lake of Fire. Do you really want to spend Eternity away from God, trapped in a place with Satan who will be pissed off?
Tell me why when you confess your sins to a Catholic Priest they insist you have to pray the Hail Mary over and over again? Where in the Scriptures in it entirety is the Hail Mary Prayer? I do know for a fact the Hail Mary Prayer is composed of words pulled out of the Scriptures and strung together to make up the Hail Mary Prayer.
Whereas the Lord's prayer is a continuous line of verses found in the Scriptures as a whole!
Reject Mary! Follow God and spend Eternity in Heaven with me.
There are billions of Catholics in the World and if Mary can hear our prayers then she can only hear those next to her. Which means in your lifetime there is a 99.99999999999999% chance Mary will never hear your Prayer.
So tell me why do you see nothing wrong with making Mary equal to God?
Like i said before you Catholics have been deceived by Satan into Worshiping Mary as a god.
You can spin it all you want, but God cannot allow those in Heaven who Worship Mary as their god. Your Immortal Soul is in danger of Hell Fire.
Billions of Catholics have died and are facing Eternity in the Lake of Fire. Do you really want to spend Eternity away from God, trapped in a place with Satan who will be pissed off?
Tell me why when you confess your sins to a Catholic Priest they insist you have to pray the Hail Mary over and over again? Where in the Scriptures in it entirety is the Hail Mary Prayer? I do know for a fact the Hail Mary Prayer is composed of words pulled out of the Scriptures and strung together to make up the Hail Mary Prayer.
Whereas the Lord's prayer is a continuous line of verses found in the Scriptures as a whole!
Reject Mary! Follow God and spend Eternity in Heaven with me.
I apologize, crossnote. I will answer very briefly but I've gotta go...
We have evidence in Scripture that those in Heaven can hear us.
In Revelation 5:8, for example, we see 24 elders offering up the prayers of the saints...
Nope. She is not onmipresent or omniscient just like the 24 elders are not either. And they don't have to be.
No matter how many people on earth are praying at the same time, it is always a finite number. It is never an infinite number. But still, it could be quite a lot...even millions.
The bottom line is that we don't know how that "spiritual technology" works. But the Bible does tell us that we can't even imagine what it will be like. It will be so vastly different from our limitations here. We are also told by Jesus that we will be "like the angels". He said that in the context of not being married...but the angels also are unimaginably different than us on earth in other ways.
They rejoice over even one sinner who repents. So they are aware of what is happening on earth. And probably there could be thousands (or maybe even millions) of sinners repenting at the same time. But the angels do not have to be omniscient or omnipresent to be aware of that. Hebrews tells us that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses".
So we don't know exactly how that all works, but it seems that the spiritual realm is very close to us.
It actually wouldn't. But I would say if the angels and saints can hear our prayers, it is because God allows them to.
See an earlier post of mine. Basically, Christians are told to pray for each other, death doesn't separate anyone from the Body of Christ, and that's it. The Bible never says Christians are released from that form of love....to pray for one another.
Sorry. Got to go.
God Bless.
We have evidence in Scripture that those in Heaven can hear us.
In Revelation 5:8, for example, we see 24 elders offering up the prayers of the saints...
Nope. She is not onmipresent or omniscient just like the 24 elders are not either. And they don't have to be.
No matter how many people on earth are praying at the same time, it is always a finite number. It is never an infinite number. But still, it could be quite a lot...even millions.
The bottom line is that we don't know how that "spiritual technology" works. But the Bible does tell us that we can't even imagine what it will be like. It will be so vastly different from our limitations here. We are also told by Jesus that we will be "like the angels". He said that in the context of not being married...but the angels also are unimaginably different than us on earth in other ways.
They rejoice over even one sinner who repents. So they are aware of what is happening on earth. And probably there could be thousands (or maybe even millions) of sinners repenting at the same time. But the angels do not have to be omniscient or omnipresent to be aware of that. Hebrews tells us that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses".
So we don't know exactly how that all works, but it seems that the spiritual realm is very close to us.
It actually wouldn't. But I would say if the angels and saints can hear our prayers, it is because God allows them to.
See an earlier post of mine. Basically, Christians are told to pray for each other, death doesn't separate anyone from the Body of Christ, and that's it. The Bible never says Christians are released from that form of love....to pray for one another.
Sorry. Got to go.
God Bless.
Scriptures teach Scriptures are our Divine Authority in the passages which you edited out while quoting me. Here, I'll give them to you again...
The Scriptures were codified in the OT long before Rome came along. They were first given to the Jewish prophets and then the Apostles by the Holy Spirit.
If we did not have the written record as a standard then we would be prey to myriads of false prophets and teachings.
It would be the Dark Ages all over again.
And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
(Mar 7:9)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(Act 17:11)
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17)
(Mar 7:9)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(Act 17:11)
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17)
The Scriptures were codified in the OT long before Rome came along. They were first given to the Jewish prophets and then the Apostles by the Holy Spirit.
No Jesus didn't condemn all traditions..only those which conflicted with God's Word, the Scriptures then existent, and that in itself proves God's Word trumps tradition. Paul was speaking of those teachings derived from Scripture.
The Thessalonians were commended because they searched the Scriptures to see if what the apostles (and popes if they had existed) were saying was true.
Jesus continually used the phrase, "It is written" to combat error and correct.
The Thessalonians were commended because they searched the Scriptures to see if what the apostles (and popes if they had existed) were saying was true.
Jesus continually used the phrase, "It is written" to combat error and correct.
If we did not have the written record as a standard then we would be prey to myriads of false prophets and teachings.
It would be the Dark Ages all over again.
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Why are we concerned with the Catholics? I say ignore then, Heaven will be a better place without them.
Let them worship Mary. Let them deceive each other.
They will never listen to any True Child of God or God.
For the last 1000 years the Catholics have only listened to their Popes, never to what God says. Why do you think God used Martin Luther and others to bring His True Children out of the Catholic Church? God smote the Catholic Church long ago, we need to move on and bring the Gospel of Truth to those who will listen.
Let them worship Mary. Let them deceive each other.
They will never listen to any True Child of God or God.
For the last 1000 years the Catholics have only listened to their Popes, never to what God says. Why do you think God used Martin Luther and others to bring His True Children out of the Catholic Church? God smote the Catholic Church long ago, we need to move on and bring the Gospel of Truth to those who will listen.
We are to "shake off" the dust of the Catholic Church!
Make 6:7-13
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And He *summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; [SUP]8 [/SUP]and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belt— [SUP]9 [/SUP]but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]They went out and preached that men should repent. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.
We need to "shake off" the dust of the Catholics and move on.
Make 6:7-13
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And He *summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits; [SUP]8 [/SUP]and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belt— [SUP]9 [/SUP]but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]They went out and preached that men should repent. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them.
We need to "shake off" the dust of the Catholics and move on.
They seem to use 2 Thes 2:15 as a hook to their stuff in every forum I have found they have certain scriptures they use to reel into themselves.
This one
2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and *hold the traditions which ye *have been* taught,
whether ((by)) word, ((or our)) epistle.
Then by the end of the same epistle (and in the place where traditions are mentioned in 2 The 3 Paul says, this
2Thes 3:14 And if any man obey not our word ((by this)) epistle,
note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed
But in 2The 2-15-3:14 Paul tells them in between what he had said (by word/in person) when he was actually with them prior
Telling them what it was they had received (already, when they were there in person)
writes in that epistle by retelling them what it was they had received of them in person (in this epistle)
Saying ((( this ))) we commanded you, here...
2 Thes 3:10 For even when **we were** with you, ((( this ))) we commanded you,
that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
That is a tradition
This is part of that walking disorderly
and not after the tradition received of them was about.
Even as Paul shows it a few verses earlier...
when he says this
2Thes 3:6 we command *you* (now in this epistle), brethren,
in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother
that walketh disorderly,
and not after the tradition
which he *received of* us (or received already when we were with you)
They had received it from them already
Which was to follow their manner of "behavior"
As Paul conttinues,
2Thes 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us:
for we behaved not ourselves disorderly (even when they were among you )
Whereas he also says,
2Thes 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought;
but wrought with labour and travail night and day,
that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
And to "make ourselves examples" (unto them) to follow
As he also states saying,
2Thes 3:9 Not because we have not power,
but to make ourselves an ensample unto you
to follow us. (in that way)
So again...
2Thes 3:10 For even when we **were with** you ((( this ))) we commanded you,
that if any would not work,
neither should he eat.
So he just told them what was commanded them by word (previously in person) when they (the apostles) were with them and now he is writing it (in this same in that epistle)
And because the apostles (now being away) are "hearing" this...
As he writes,
2Thes 3:11 For **we hear** (being no more with them but now away)
that there are some (not all) which walk among you disorderly,
(So, howso disorderly?
and not after what tradition?)
Paul continues,
working not *at all*,
but *are* busybodies.
(So Paul names those)
Which is exactly this earlier
2Thes 3:6...that which walketh disorderly,
and not after the tradition which he received (already) of us
And he continues "to these" in particular saying
2Thes 3:12 Now *them* that **are such**
we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ,
that with quietness they **work**,
and eat their *own bread*
Its the "dont be a leech" tradition there
And so now what they had (previously) commanded them in word (and what they did receive already ) when the apostles were with them is now in writing (in that same epistle) where we see in 2 Thes 3:14
Paul ends it saying...
2Thes 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by *this* epistle, note that man
(ie the man who does not do what he just commanded which was *that* which they received of them in person and now likewise in writing as well )
and to do what then?
To have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
And he also adds...
2Thes 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him
Even in the earlier context of 2 Thes 2:15 he says it the same way there also (concerning what he said about the things he was writing in the same epistle, saying,
2 Thes 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you (in person),I told you (then) these things (I am writing to you about in this same epistle)?
Both places touch down on what was said in person and in that epistle (wheres in 2 Thes 2 was of an insight and the other was on not being a leech for the most part).
And where this here (earlier in chapter 2)
2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have (already) been taught, **whether** by word, (as you might be of those who yet remember) or our epistle. (if you are of those who let what we commanded when we with you go in one ear and out the next)
But that becomes (after all that expounding) later in chapter 2 this
2Thes 3:13 And if any man obey not *our* word **by this** epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
As the ealier verse shows whether by as he himself shows them speaking the same things In both 2 Thes 2:5 & later in 2 Thes 3:10 are speaking of the same things that were said to them in person.
This one
2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and *hold the traditions which ye *have been* taught,
whether ((by)) word, ((or our)) epistle.
Then by the end of the same epistle (and in the place where traditions are mentioned in 2 The 3 Paul says, this
2Thes 3:14 And if any man obey not our word ((by this)) epistle,
note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed
But in 2The 2-15-3:14 Paul tells them in between what he had said (by word/in person) when he was actually with them prior
Telling them what it was they had received (already, when they were there in person)
writes in that epistle by retelling them what it was they had received of them in person (in this epistle)
Saying ((( this ))) we commanded you, here...
2 Thes 3:10 For even when **we were** with you, ((( this ))) we commanded you,
that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
That is a tradition
This is part of that walking disorderly
and not after the tradition received of them was about.
Even as Paul shows it a few verses earlier...
when he says this
2Thes 3:6 we command *you* (now in this epistle), brethren,
in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother
that walketh disorderly,
and not after the tradition
which he *received of* us (or received already when we were with you)
They had received it from them already
Which was to follow their manner of "behavior"
As Paul conttinues,
2Thes 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us:
for we behaved not ourselves disorderly (even when they were among you )
Whereas he also says,
2Thes 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought;
but wrought with labour and travail night and day,
that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
And to "make ourselves examples" (unto them) to follow
As he also states saying,
2Thes 3:9 Not because we have not power,
but to make ourselves an ensample unto you
to follow us. (in that way)
So again...
2Thes 3:10 For even when we **were with** you ((( this ))) we commanded you,
that if any would not work,
neither should he eat.
So he just told them what was commanded them by word (previously in person) when they (the apostles) were with them and now he is writing it (in this same in that epistle)
And because the apostles (now being away) are "hearing" this...
As he writes,
2Thes 3:11 For **we hear** (being no more with them but now away)
that there are some (not all) which walk among you disorderly,
(So, howso disorderly?
and not after what tradition?)
Paul continues,
working not *at all*,
but *are* busybodies.
(So Paul names those)
Which is exactly this earlier
2Thes 3:6...that which walketh disorderly,
and not after the tradition which he received (already) of us
And he continues "to these" in particular saying
2Thes 3:12 Now *them* that **are such**
we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ,
that with quietness they **work**,
and eat their *own bread*
Its the "dont be a leech" tradition there
And so now what they had (previously) commanded them in word (and what they did receive already ) when the apostles were with them is now in writing (in that same epistle) where we see in 2 Thes 3:14
Paul ends it saying...
2Thes 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by *this* epistle, note that man
(ie the man who does not do what he just commanded which was *that* which they received of them in person and now likewise in writing as well )
and to do what then?
To have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
And he also adds...
2Thes 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him
Even in the earlier context of 2 Thes 2:15 he says it the same way there also (concerning what he said about the things he was writing in the same epistle, saying,
2 Thes 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you (in person),I told you (then) these things (I am writing to you about in this same epistle)?
Both places touch down on what was said in person and in that epistle (wheres in 2 Thes 2 was of an insight and the other was on not being a leech for the most part).
And where this here (earlier in chapter 2)
2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have (already) been taught, **whether** by word, (as you might be of those who yet remember) or our epistle. (if you are of those who let what we commanded when we with you go in one ear and out the next)
But that becomes (after all that expounding) later in chapter 2 this
2Thes 3:13 And if any man obey not *our* word **by this** epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
As the ealier verse shows whether by as he himself shows them speaking the same things In both 2 Thes 2:5 & later in 2 Thes 3:10 are speaking of the same things that were said to them in person.
take believe out of religion, and what have you got,
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
we do like eejits that cannot tell the difference. lol
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?Galatians 3: By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
we do like eejits that cannot tell the difference. lol
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Roman Catholics are to be afforded the same courtesy as any sinner. They need Christ according to the bible just as much as any heathen. Roman Catholics are very religious and they hide behind their religion.
A clear presentation of the gospel will cut through the smoke of self deception will bring them face to face with Gods truth. Roman Catholics are already guilt laden they simply need to see the promised freedom from sin in Christ. Gods word is able to bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ. The arm of Jehovah is not shortened that He cannot save.
Religion will not save anyone. No church will save anyone. Only the grace of God will save and when so saved one will know they are saved and no longer carry the fear and guilt that self religion gives. Exchange doubt for hope and rejoice.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A clear presentation of the gospel will cut through the smoke of self deception will bring them face to face with Gods truth. Roman Catholics are already guilt laden they simply need to see the promised freedom from sin in Christ. Gods word is able to bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ. The arm of Jehovah is not shortened that He cannot save.
Religion will not save anyone. No church will save anyone. Only the grace of God will save and when so saved one will know they are saved and no longer carry the fear and guilt that self religion gives. Exchange doubt for hope and rejoice.
For the cause of Christ
Roger