Who are the friends or enemies of the Living God?

[JGIG]

Why don't you just state what you DO believe and leave it at that?

The term "hyper grace" was coined to describe movements like the word of Faith and other heresy...why you would want to claim it is beyond me....plain old grace is good enough for me. .,,, no need for the,hype.

Plain old grace is what they do have a problem with, Ariel82. The term 'Hyper-grace' was coined as a pejorative term to make it seem like another heresy out there.

Please do understand: HRFTD and PJ are preaching a grace+works equation for salvation; a Jesus+ equation for salvation. They may claim that salvation is attained by grace, but they will fight tooth and nail that it is MAINTAINED by works.

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel - what you have to do with each point is deal with them as a summary point.
The suggestion of doctrines of hyper grace effect these points.
It takes longer to go into each point.
The reason for creating the list was to show the expanse of belief. If it interests people you have to research wider.

It looks like we agree in brief. What I have discovered with many deceptive groups until you lay out their beliefs you do not see the problems properly.

Have a good time with you niece and nephew.

Yeah I figured we did, but you were kind of mean yesterday...but it's a new day, glad you are calmer today.


If nothing else this forum,helps you realise how many different ways your words can be misunderstood.

Don't have time to study false teachers, rather just look to Jesus. Pray when I meet folks caught in the deception.

 

[Ariel82]

Plain old grace is what they do have a problem with, Ariel82. The term 'Hyper-grace' was coined as a pejorative term to make it seem like another heresy out there.

Please do understand: HRFTD and PJ are preaching a grace+works equation for salvation; a Jesus+ equation for salvation. They may claim that salvation is attained by grace, but they will fight tooth and nail that it is MAINTAINED by works.

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

Nah I saw some of their posts that would make me think, plain old grace is fine for them too.

 

[JGIG]

Nah I saw some of their posts that would make me think, plain old grace is fine for them too.

Give it time . . .

 

[PeterJens]

Being a friend to Jesus has fascinated me

Imagine the president of the USA or the queen visiting your home and calling you a friend,
and taking everything you say seriously.

We so easily miss this reality. The throne of grace to which we are raised.
It is this that makes me think and lifts my heart in praise.

In this place we are called to share our hearts desire.
Now when people say I am condescending, is it because I claim something they
have not got? Are we not brother and sisters in Christ with our hearts desire to
love God and love our fellow man?

If I become your enemy, evil, condemning, making you feel small, it is not
me but your lack of reaching to the Lord through the cross because in faith
you are just like me. Brother and sister, I just sincerely want to share your
experience and I share mine. We have eternity to rejoice so let us do it today
here and now. It is in this place the Kingdom Starts.

Let us meet the Lord in fellowship. Or am I an enemy, and you cannot break
bread with me?

 

[PeterJens]

Nah I saw some of their posts that would make me think, plain old grace is fine for them too.

That is where I sit 100%. What I did not know was about doctrines of original sin and belief in total inability.
This total inability doctrine for many closes the door to a righteous walk in this life. It is what in part drives hyper-grace because if we can never walk in true righteousness then how do we make sense of being a holy people here on earth. So comes Jesus's righteousness imputed to us. What HRFTD showed this is not the early churches belief, rather most christians accept we can walk in open fellowship with Christ in this life. Which means total inability does not exist. The suggestion is it is a gnostic import that has dominated theology since 350 ad.

This position sits well in my heart and life experience. Scripture seems equally to support it. So this is me at the moment.
It does not get much simpler. I do not lie or deceive or desire to miss-lead or all the false accusation put on me.

It is people who have a stake to defend who tend to go nuts on just seeking clearer definition.
Jesus said a few simple things. If you oppose His words you oppose Him. So if you argue against love, you are not in fellowship with the King. So when I bring this and people scream and shout, fling insults, upset, sin, lying, I am not going to say, the Lord the Holy Spirit dwells here. I am just going to say "What?"

 

[PeterJens]

Let's break down this post, shall we?

Willie is quite capable of defending himself. But thanks for trying. He and I do not actually agree on much.
It sounds like you agree I am prejudiced hater. I should listen to Jesus. When these kind of statements are said
they serve no value. My pride likes to have people understand me, but I am wrong, it does not matter.

Jesus is love through the cross. I boast in this alone, that Christ died to set us free from sin and judgement.

I can never deal or heal with the deep wounds of legalism that these people have been through.

By the way calling me a "prejudiced hater" is something I should just accept as true and accurate.
And after being characterised as an enemy, it should not say I am being victimised, because that is just an invention.

It is like saying a lynching is the victims fault. Odd morality that.

 

[Ariel82]

You can be condescending, but you are not evil or the enemy.

To be called a friend of God is truly awe inspiring.

But I am fine if he just lets me,wash His feet with my tears.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Plain old grace is what they do have a problem with, Ariel82. The term 'Hyper-grace' was coined as a pejorative term to make it seem like another heresy out there.

Please do understand: HRFTD and PJ are preaching a grace+works equation for salvation; a Jesus+ equation for salvation. They may claim that salvation is attained by grace, but they will fight tooth and nail that it is MAINTAINED by works.

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

Not true. Grace + works is a false dichotomy. I promote faith + works = obedience. It's a good formula because only the obedient are saved.

 

[John146]

Not true. Grace + works is a false dichotomy. I promote faith + works = obedience. It's a good formula because only the obedient are saved.

Romans 10:16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

The obedience that is required is believing the gospel.

 

[PeterJens]

You will find it more peaceful if you address each person uniquely to what they say and start fresh each day because God works on our hearts.

There is a lot of truth in what you say.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 10:16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

The obedience that is required is believing the gospel.

Amen..that is true obedience to the faith - which is to believe in what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone.

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

Romans 1:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 16:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 10:16, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

The obedience that is required is believing the gospel.

The obedience that is required is believing into Christ and remaining there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not true. Grace + works is a false dichotomy. I promote faith + works = obedience. It's a good formula because only the obedient are saved.

ie, Faith plus works equals obedience

Obedience = salvation

thus faith plus works equals salvation


Thanks..

 

[PeterJens]

You can be condescending, but you are not evil or the enemy.

To be called a friend of God is truly awe inspiring.

But I am fine if he just lets me,wash His feet with my tears.

Condescending is sometimes thought of stating the obvious as if someone does not understand.
If I just think allowed, my kids sometimes say I am being condescending. Forums like this unfortunately lead easily
to wrong reading of things. That is where love and forgiveness come in.

To be honest sometimes I need people to be condescending to me, no role is actually off limits in family or in the body.
None of us sees everything, that is why we are a body, but if you are taken as something else people look for excuses.

A friend of God, how can we get our heads around that.
It is why the turin shroud makes me boggle. Such an odd thing, yet another thing the Lord does
so unexpected, in a place our reactions say no, wrong context.

There are no bounds or limits who the Lord uses, it always humbles me.
What I am struck by is He listens to us, and acts. What a Lord and King.

So bless you sister, and thankyou for coming here.
Too often the argument becomes higher than the Lord, which is never good.

I need to learn to be more trusting and listening to His word in my heart.

 

[John146]

ie, Faith plus works equals obedience

Obedience = salvation

thus faith plus works equals salvation


Thanks..

It was so refreshing when I finally understood the difference between the faith of Christ and faith in Christ. It was one of the big reasons that got me studying the Bible version issue. The KJV is the only one that has "faith of Christ." If not, you get people running around trying their best to be obedient for salvation's sake and the doubting their salvation because of a slip up. I actually had a friend, on his deathbed mind you, hoping he had been obedient enough to be present with the Lord. That's not peace at all.

The believer is justified by the faith of Christ. Christ's faith is enough. Our faith comes in after salvation. Our faith is our obedience to the Savior as He has outlined in Scripture. Our faith waivers too much to trust in for justification. Christ's faith never waivers, Amen.

 

[Grace777x70]

ie, Faith plus works equals obedience

Obedience = salvation

thus faith plus works equals salvation


Thanks..

And..everyone is free to believe what they want too but there are many that say that this belief is NOT the gospel of the grace of Christ.

Obedience will come when people are taught about the true gospel or they will be disciplined ( Greek = child trained ) by our loving Father as this proves that they are in fact children of God.

This is a stumbling block for works-based salvationists. Those who think they must "do things" in order to maintain righteousness are trying to establish their own by their works are in fact denying Christ's righteousness and it is unbelief.

Romans 10:2-4 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The law is anything "we do" in order to maintain or obtain righteousness apart from believing by grace through faith in Christ's righteousness.

 

[Ariel82]

Turin shroud? Don't get the reference.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It seems people miss-understand the phrase overcome sin - what I mean is through communion with Christ and the transformation of our hearts we can walk in righteousness. Now I know to many readers they read this as me saying you are a sinner and I am righteous, but what I mean is we are all sinners, but through walking with Christ and being cleansed we can walk righteously.

It is going to take me some time to understand how others see my words in a condemnatory way. But then I expect nothing more from people who call me their enemy and evil.

I need to say I am an enemy because I have no fear in saying this. I would desire to be friends and open and loving, but my enemies call me evil and deceived full of malice and everything bad, like witchcraft. And why? Because I say living in love is possible, and what Christ died for us to achieve, by knowing God loves us completely, saved to eternity.

How excited do you get as a kid at christmas. This is the gift of life He gives us, nothing is of greater value. But it is so we walk in His love and righteousness, not stay in sin and defeat. But this is where my enemies disagree and call me an evil legalist and pharisee. Odd that because I am far from that position. But when Jesus changes you completely, turns you around, it is like people are talking a different language. I just love my Lord, whatever people want to say I fail at.

It's okay to admit our failures. Actually, until I saw my failures, despite my love and gratitude, He couldn't say all the things to me that He was ready to say to me. I couldn't bear them yet.I didn't understand that, despite my love and gratitude, I was still full of too much pride to be of any use to Him.

When He can get us to a place where we can bear offenses as HE did, instead of defending our "honor", I think we can maybe be helpful to Him then. But that humility and brokeness comes hard. It only comes through the actual experience of failing at it, being tested in it. Testing is pressure applied to see how we will react.

We can't learn humility while defending ourselves. If we're bridges to Him, people will necessarily step on us. A touchy and complaining bridge can't bear the offense of people stomping on it and weight and pressure. That just makes people turn around and seek a different way. Because we are only showing them our own pride and selfishness - not HIM.

The very circumstances we find ourselves in right this very moment, the people who are most trying to us right this very moment, are the instruments He uses to bring us to humbling but we are most often complaining rather than loving His will. Or defending ourselves against their selfishness and despiteful use rather than laying down our life for them by our Lords' example.

Wash their feet? We can't even bear for them to get snippy with us. We can't even bear their selfishness with cheer. But we can talk theology all day long. We just seem to have a problem with actually living OUT what we love to talk about. It's because of our pride of life. We nailed our Lord to a cross and we can't even bear the simplest despitefulness or we
are quickly defending our "rights," while out of the other side of our mouth we are claiming we follow Him.

Is it me, Lord? Yes, I see that it is...

 

[Ariel82]

Not true. Grace + works is a false dichotomy. I promote faith + works = obedience. It's a good formula because only the obedient are saved.

Actually that's not true....some disobedient folks are saved too, just really immature.


Salvation is by grace..., we don't earn it or deserve it.

God gives us a measure of faith so we can confess that Jesus died for our sins, rose again and ascended into heaven.

We are to die to ourselves and sin, become born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...and will be ressurected in New bodies upon Jesus return.

However that is not the end...faith is given to us so that we might grow mature in Christ and walk with His holy Spirit displaying the fruit of love, joy, peace, gentleness, patience and self control.

We add to our faith, virtue, wisdom, self control, perservance, brotherly kindness and love...

Works can not save us, but it can help us do what God wants for us to do in this life.


There are some who only have faith and even that not very strong faith that God really does love them...they lack knowledge and self control but God still loves them and calls them His.