You can love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind!

[QuestionTime]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]CHAPTER 5. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TRUE HOLINESS IS THE RESULT OF WORKING FAITH, NOT FROM WORKS OF THE LAW.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] I am quite blown away by this quote from Chapter 5:[/FONT]

"Our lack of strength consists not in a simple lack of executive power, but in the lack of a willing mind and heart to practice true holiness and righteousness."

As much as I - and I think most people - would like to blame God for being unable to obey Him properly due to a corrupt nature, this is all wrong. The problem isn't that we are "unable" to obey God. The problem is that we "don't want to obey God." That is the real issue. We can't sit here and shake our collective fist at God and blame Him for an inability to stop sinning. The reality is that God has given us every physical thing necessary in order that we might obey Him. We all have a brain and a body that we can utilize for obedience. The problem is that we don't want to obey. This is a very humbling thing to learn... (I believe I have known this in the past, but it feels like a new revelation)

As Christians, when we learn that we need to obey God, we go about trying to reform our behavior. We never realize that it's our desires we need to change, only our behavior. We are motivated to change our behavior for fear of eternal condemnation. But what will motivate us to change our desires? Is fear of Hell enough to change our desires? (Of course, many people believe they do desire to obey. It's only after years of defeat that the finally begin to realize that they sin because they want to).

Anyway, a scripture comes to my mind:

Colossians 3:2 (KJV)
2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

The solution that the Bible offers to our desire problem, is to set our affections on heavenly things. Our affections and desires - I assume - must be one and the same.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"These convictions may stir them up, not only to make a high profession, and to utter rare sayings concerning God and godliness, but also to labor with great earnestness to avoid all known sin. They will attempt to conquer their lusts, to perform universal obedience to God in all known duties, and to serve Him with their lives to the utmost. They may even try to extract out of their hearts some kind of love to God and godliness, that, if possible, they may escape the terrible torments of hell and acquire everlasting happiness by their efforts. Yet all their love to God is but forced and artificial. They have no hearty liking to God or His service and they consider Him a hard Master. To them God's commandments are grievous, and they complain and worry inwardly at the burden of them. Were it not for fear of everlasting fire, they would have little regard for the enjoyment of God in heaven, and they would be glad if they might have the liberty to enjoy their lust without danger of d-a-m-nation."[/FONT]

Boy oh boy! That paragraph above sure sounds like me! Anyone else feel the same?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Many of these labor and work more in God's service than many of His dear children, yet God does not accept their service, because their best performances are slavish and without any childlike affections towards God. These men are not at all under obligation to the goodness of their natures for these counterfeit shows of holiness, or for the least abstaining from the grossest sins."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Reminds me of the scripture where they say: "Oh Lord, we did all these wonderful things like cast out demons and feed the hungry and all of that." Jesus says to them: "Depart from me, I never knew you."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Quest
[/FONT]​

 

[livingbygrace]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]CHAPTER 3. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]WE CAN BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE THROUGH UNION IN CHRIST.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"In our old and corrupt nature, we not only sinned, but had natures or dispositions which prompted us to sin. In Christ, we not only obey the divine will, but receive from Him, as the Mediator of the new covenant, a new or "divine nature," which prompts us to purity and obedience, just as our old dispositions prompted us to sin."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"When, by faith, we have "obtained the promises," it becomes just as natural in us to obey as it once was to rebel. It is just as natural and easy to be lovingly quiet and forgiving as it was to be angry and vengeful when injured or provoked. It is just as easy to bless, as it was to curse, to return good for evil, as it was to return evil for evil received. It is just as easy to be content with such things as we have, as it was to be careful and troubled about many things. In short, it is just as easy and natural to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, as it once was to do the works of the flesh."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"When the promises are embraced by faith, "God sends the Spirit of His Son into our hearts," the spirit which induces and entices in us the same "love of righteousness and hatred of iniquity" as dwelt in Him. This renders or makes it just as natural for us to be "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners," as it was for Him. Just as natural to do the will and the work of our Father, and to "drink the cup which He giveth us," as it was for Christ. Were this not the case, "the Spirit," or disposition, of His Son would not be sent into our hearts."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Romans 7 referred to again:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"To "escape the corruption which is in the world through lust," implies that we are not only saved from the actual sins that are in the world, but that the evil propensities and tempers, "the law in our members," which induces sin, are taken from us, and are replaced by new and divine tendencies which naturally induce the opposite virtues."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Quest[/FONT]

It is interesting to note that the Apostle Paul said that sin used the law to condemn him. Before the commandment came he was alive, but then he died. Sin used the commandment of coveting to arouse all kinds of lustful desires in him. He said that without the commandment he would never have known what coveting really was. Indeed he said that sins power is the law. 1Cor15:56. It was only by dying to the law that he could live for Christ

 

[QuestionTime]

It is interesting to note that the Apostle Paul said that sin used the law to condemn him. Before the commandment came he was alive, but then he died. Sin used the commandment of coveting to arouse all kinds of lustful desires in him. He said that without the commandment he would never have known what coveting really was. Indeed he said that sins power is the law. 1Cor15:56. It was only by dying to the law that he could live for Christ

Greetings livingbygrace and thanks for reading my thread!

Walter Marshall (This version is edited so possibly not his exact words)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica](Regarding the Galatian Church) "Neither does the apostle condemn them merely for considering sincere obedience to the law, as given by Moses, to be the condition of their justification, but more generally for seeking salvation by their own works. He alleges against them that Abraham, who lived before the law of Moses, was not justified by any of his works, though he did perform sincere obedience; and that David, who lived under the law of Moses, was not justified by his works, though he performed sincere obedience, and was as much given to obey the law given by Moses, as we are to obey any commands of Christ in the gospel."

I do believe that we are required to obey the Moral Law of God, but that God will work that obedience into us by faith. The issue isn't that there is something wrong with God's Law. The issue rather, is that men tried to earn God's acceptance by the Law. Jesus and the Apostles still required us to obey the Law.

We are accepted by Jesus - apart from the Law - and once we are fully converted to that great faith in Christ, then we will obey the Law properly, because it will be our joy so to do!

It is the covenant of perfect obedience to the Law that was done away with. King David and Daniel were two men who you can read quite clearly were very careful in their observance of the Law. The only difference between themselves and the Pharisees is that they didn't try to earn God's acceptance by their obedience, but rather through faith alone.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Christ had occasion to answer the questions of those that were guilty of the same error that I am now dealing with, in seeking salvation by their own works, He showed them that they must obey the commands as they were already established by the Mosaic authority, in the Scriptures of the Old Testament: 'What is written in the law? How do you read it? This do, and you shall live' (Luke 10:26, 28). If you will enter into life, keep the commandments, which are, 'You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery,' etc."

"In like manner the apostles of Christ urged the performance of moral duties on believers by the authority of the law given by Moses. The apostle Paul exhorts to love one another, because he that loves another has fulfilled the law, and to honor our father and mother, which is the first command with promise. The apostle John exhorts to love others, as no new, but an old commandment. The apostle James exhorts to fulfill the royal law, according to the Scriptures. You shall love your neighbor as yourself; and to keep all the commandments of the law, one as well as another, because he that said, 'Do not commit adultery', said also, 'Do not kill'. Some people have considered the denial of the authority of the moral law of Moses to be an error. Others establish a worse error, justification by their sincere gospel works. The law of Moses had its authority at first from Christ, for Christ was the Lord God of Israel, that ordained the law by angels on mount Sinai in the hand of Moses, a mediator for the Israelites, who were then His only church, and with whom we believing Gentiles are now joined, as fellow members of one and the same body. Though Christ has since abrogated some of the commandments, then given by Moses, concerning figurative ceremonies and judicial proceedings, yet He has not annulled the obligative authority of the moral law, but has left it in its full force, to oblige in moral duties that still are to be practiced, as, when some acts of any parliament are repealed, the authority of the same parliament remains inviolable in other acts that are not repealed."
[/FONT]

 

[livingbygrace]

Greetings livingbygrace and thanks for reading my thread!

Walter Marshall (This version is edited so possibly not his exact words)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica](Regarding the Galatian Church) "Neither does the apostle condemn them merely for considering sincere obedience to the law, as given by Moses, to be the condition of their justification, but more generally for seeking salvation by their own works. He alleges against them that Abraham, who lived before the law of Moses, was not justified by any of his works, though he did perform sincere obedience; and that David, who lived under the law of Moses, was not justified by his works, though he performed sincere obedience, and was as much given to obey the law given by Moses, as we are to obey any commands of Christ in the gospel."

I do believe that we are required to obey the Moral Law of God, but that God will work that obedience into us by faith. The issue isn't that there is something wrong with God's Law. The issue rather, is that men tried to earn God's acceptance by the Law. Jesus and the Apostles still required us to obey the Law.

We are accepted by Jesus - apart from the Law - and once we are fully converted to that great faith in Christ, then we will obey the Law properly, because it will be our joy so to do!

It is the covenant of perfect obedience to the Law that was done away with. King David and Daniel were two men who you can read quite clearly were very careful in their observance of the Law. The only difference between themselves and the Pharisees is that they didn't try to earn God's acceptance by their obedience, but rather through faith alone.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Christ had occasion to answer the questions of those that were guilty of the same error that I am now dealing with, in seeking salvation by their own works, He showed them that they must obey the commands as they were already established by the Mosaic authority, in the Scriptures of the Old Testament: 'What is written in the law? How do you read it? This do, and you shall live' (Luke 10:26, 28). If you will enter into life, keep the commandments, which are, 'You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery,' etc." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"In like manner the apostles of Christ urged the performance of moral duties on believers by the authority of the law given by Moses. The apostle Paul exhorts to love one another, because he that loves another has fulfilled the law, and to honor our father and mother, which is the first command with promise. The apostle John exhorts to love others, as no new, but an old commandment. The apostle James exhorts to fulfill the royal law, according to the Scriptures. You shall love your neighbor as yourself; and to keep all the commandments of the law, one as well as another, because he that said, 'Do not commit adultery', said also, 'Do not kill'. Some people have considered the denial of the authority of the moral law of Moses to be an error. Others establish a worse error, justification by their sincere gospel works. The law of Moses had its authority at first from Christ, for Christ was the Lord God of Israel, that ordained the law by angels on mount Sinai in the hand of Moses, a mediator for the Israelites, who were then His only church, and with whom we believing Gentiles are now joined, as fellow members of one and the same body. Though Christ has since abrogated some of the commandments, then given by Moses, concerning figurative ceremonies and judicial proceedings, yet He has not annulled the obligative authority of the moral law, but has left it in its full force, to oblige in moral duties that still are to be practiced, as, when some acts of any parliament are repealed, the authority of the same parliament remains inviolable in other acts that are not repealed." [/FONT]

Hi Question time. I am enjoying reading your posts. Thank you for your reply to mine. This is the subject above all others that interests me, due to my childhood experiances.
Let me say firstly that the law of God is good, and I passionately believe we should aspire to the moral law. The question is how.

When you say Paul did not condemn the Galatian church for believing obediance to the law to be the condition of their justification. I would have to disagree. I entirely agree that Paul said good works can not be the condition for getting into Heaven.

For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said. "Do not covet" But sin, seizing the oppurtunity afforded by the commandment produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law but when the commandment came sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that5 was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the oppurtunity afforded by the commandment deceived me and through the Commandment put me to death. Rom7:7-11
In the KJV it says all manner of concupiscence(lustful thoughts) were aroused in Paul.

You quoted yesterday that some people are Christians out of ferar of puinishment if they do not live as they should. If they believed there was no punishment they would happily sin, because that in their hearts is what they want to do. But, although we are all natural sinners(Rom3:10-19) speaks of the natural state of us all, a true Christian although he has the pull of sin, in his heart wants to be with God and live as God wants him to. The problem is as Paul speaks of in Rom7 the latter verses. He finds himself doing the things he doesn't want to do, because we are sinful men. This is hugely important to what I am writing.

Paul said that sin used the law to condemn him. Interestingly he used one of the Ten Commandments(the moral law) as an example of this. If ever anyone tried to obey God's good laws it must surely have been Paul, the strictest of Pharisees. He was alive before the Commanment came, but then he died.

For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Rom4:14&15

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written. "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Gal3:10
I believe from this and many other writings of Paul he believed that people were condemned if they felt obediance to the law was neccessarey for salvation. And he never differentiated between the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Jewish law.
What was Paul's thinking behind this?
Paul knew that sin had used the law to condemn him, incidentally I know it to be true, the same thing happened to me as a yuoung person. Trying to obey the law is the same as trying to be good enough, it doesn't work.
I believe that any sincere christian who desperately wants to be with God would admit that God's good laws simply make him concious of sin Rom3:20
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
We become a Christian by faith, but so many of us unwittingly turn back to the law to try and be closer to God and please him. For some it is pride. They have to believe that by their own effort they have obtained Heaven, this is impossible according to Paul. The Galatian church turned back to law. Paul had some of his strongest words to say to them.
If the law could have saved one person for Heaven, Jesus need not have died on the cross, but it couldn't. Everyone sinned and fell short.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. This was 430 years before the law was given. God said he would bless people in all nations through his covenant with Abraham. Did the law when it was given negate the promise? certainly not. So why was the law given?
Until Christ came we were guarded by the law, kept in protective custody so to speak until we could believe in the comming Saviour.Gal3:23 Living Bible

What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgression until the seed to whom the promise referred had comeGal3:19

What happens if you take somethings power away? It weakens it or it dies. Remember, sins power is the law.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing. Gal2:21

Bind up the testimony and seal up the law among my disciples. Isiaih 8:16

Your covenant with death will be annulled, your agreement with the grave will not stand. Isiaih28:18
To Paul the law brought death and condemnation.

Christ is the end of the law Rom10:4

By abolishinmg in his flesh, the law with its commandments and regulations Eph2:15

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their heartsHeb8:10
A true Christian has God's laws that he wants us to keep written on our hearts. This means we want to obey them, not disobey them, so instinctively we want to do what is right from our love for God. In such a situation we do not need law. This to me is true grace. We no longer need to be kept in protective custody, we are free of the written law that condemned us.

Paul said.

For when we were controlled by our sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we botre fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law sao that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:5&6

At the begining of Rom8 Paul explains how he had the victory over sin in his life.
Brcause through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death(the Mosaic law). For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God by sending his Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering, and so he condemned sin in sinful man. Rom8:3
Jesus died for every sin the sincere Christian could ever commit, he fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law. He took away our guilt and shame, the law.

Do we then nulloify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law.
It is because we are free of the written law that we far better uphold it. Sion has lost its power in our lives, it has nowhere to go, it can no longer condemn us for Christ has set us free.

To God be aLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the glory

 

[QuestionTime]

Greetings,

Yesterday, I began reading the next chapter in the Walter Marshall book, but I found the chapter was just about proving prior arguments, namely the necessity of obedience to the Law and more specifically, obedience to the Law from a proper perspective: Out of love for God, rather than as an attempt to justify self before God. Finding that this chapter failed to quench my spiritual thirst, I began looking elsewhere for 'immediately' valuable materials to read.

I then read chapter 25: (Click Here To Read) In Chapter 25 - which is not written by Walter Marshall - there is included a step by step process to enter into saving faith. I have now completed my journey through this process, and did so with much deep consideration of my personal estate. After completing the steps in Chapter 25, I have this to say:
'I have no feeling, but have perfect faith that the blood cleanses me NOW.'

Moving forward to today, I just completed my reading of a sermon from a certain Charles G. Trumbull. This sermon was preached by Charles in 1911 after he finally experienced a living relationship with Jesus Christ. In this sermon he speaks of his many years of disappointment living what he believed to be the Christian Life. His "Christian Walk" was a sad tale of repeated failures before temptation, and a life of meaningless and unproductive service to God.

What is most important in his sermon is the two "conditions" he provides at the end, that instruct us how we might receive the "Living Faith" (as Wesley referenced it). First I will provide the link to the sermon if anyone is interested: (Click Here To Read: The Life That Wins) Next I will paste the steps below:

"The conditions of thus receiving Christ as the fullness of the life are simply two – after, of course, our personal acceptance of Christ as our Saviour – through His shed blood and death as our Substitute and Sin-Bearer, from the guilt and consequences of our sin.

1. Surrender absolutely and unconditionally to Christ as Master of all that we are and all that we have, telling God that we are now ready to have His whole will done in our entire life, at every point, no matter what it costs.

2. Believe that God has set us wholly free from the law of sin (Romans 8:2) – not will do this, but has done it. ["For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2).]

Upon this second step, the quiet act of faith, all now depends. Faith must believe God in entire absence of any feeling or evidence. For God's word is safer, better, and surer than any evidence of His word. We are to say, in blind, cold faith if need be, "Know that my Lord Jesus is meeting all my needs now (even my need of faith), because His grace is sufficient for me."

This last paragraph is the most important. As we can well remember the story of Abraham; how that he was promised a son in his old age with a barren wife. Abraham did not receive the promised son for 25 years - and during that time of waiting - had absolutely nothing to base his faith upon, except that God promised. He had no visible evidence whatsoever - in fact - everything screamed that the opposite was true. Every circumstance pointing clearly to his age and the biological inability of an older woman to conceive a child. Despite all of this, we know that he persevered in faith.

Now, the same situation exists with all of us in the Christian life. We find ourselves regularly giving in to various sinful temptations. We find ourselves struggling with habitual sins. We find ourselves with short tempers, saying hurtful things to people we love. We then look at God's Word and scratch our heads and wonder why the Bible says we are dead to sin, but our experience tells us that we are very alive to sin. Well, the answer is simple. We need to believe God's Word just like Abraham did. We believe, not because we have experiential evidence of God's truth, but because God said so, and we judge God to be worthy of our trust.

In Conclusion, this is where I am at now, and this is where I will remain while I wait for the Holy Spirit to come and witness to my heart that I am a child of God.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Greetings,

I was feeling quite condemned and hopeless this afternoon, but after a good sleep - in which I dreamed of having faith in God - I feel quite a lot better. I now feel a great trust that the Holy Spirit is doing His work, and that He will complete it.

One thing I have been thinking of tonight is John Wesley's 4 resolutions. He made these resolutions while seeking for the "Living Faith" that the Moravian Church displayed to him. They displayed this faith by their actions:

" Wesley was on a ship bound for America that also carried a number of Moravian missionaries. H e was challenged by their great seriousness and their humility in performing for other passengers the most servile tasks, which none of the English passengers would do. When they were offered pay for this, they refused, replying that ‘it was good for their proud hearts,' and ‘ their loving savior had done more for them.' Some of the passengers abused them terribly, even striking them or knocking them down, but they would never strike back or even take offense. Many perceived these German missionaries as cowards until a great storm broke over the ship. As the main sail split and the sea began to pour into the ship, the English panicked, their terrified screams rising even above the tumult of the storm. Yet the Moravians sat quietly, singing their hymns. Afterwards, when one of the Moravians was asked if he was afraid during the storm, he answered ,'I thank God, no.' Then he was asked if their women and children were afraid, and he replied,' No; our women and children are not afraid to die.' Wesley recorded this in his diary and added:' From them ( the Moravians ) I went to their crying trembling neighbors, and pointed out to them the difference in the hour of trial, between him that feareth God, and him that feareth not. At twelve the wind fell. This was the most glorious day which I have hitherto seen.' "

One of the many things I love about the story above, is the fact that we now understand what Jesus means by "Turn the other Cheek."

Below are John Wesley's 4 Resolutions:

With regard to my own behaviour, I now renewed and wrote down my former resolutions:

1. To use absolute openness and unreserve with all I should converse with.
2. To labour after continual seriousness, not willingly indulging myself in any the least levity of behavior, or in laughter; no, not for a moment.
3. To speak no word which does not tend to the glory of God; in particular, not to talk of worldly things. Others may, nay, must. But what is that to thee? And,
4. To take no pleasure which does not tend to the glory of God; thanking God every moment for all I do take, and therefore rejecting every sort and degree of it which I feel I cannot so thank Him in and for.

I have not been happy with some of the responses I have given to people in the forum of late. I have also felt that perhaps some of my posts are completely unnecessary, maybe an attempt to get attention or an attempt at pointless humor. Because of this I am considering that perhaps it's time I make these resolutions as well.

Is this Entire Consecration?

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

From: Charles Finney "Entire Consecration: A Condition Of Discipleship."

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1841OE/410414_entir_consecrat.htm

II. What is implied in forsaking all for Christ:

1. A radical change of heart, from selfishness to benevolence. In other words, a forsaking, abandoning self-interest as the end of pursuit--an absolute and everlasting giving up of self-interest and self-gratification, as the end of life; and the entering into the views, sympathies, and designs of Christ, in promoting the glory of God, and the interests of his kingdom.

2. It implies the abandonment in heart and life, of the principle of self-ownership. Sinners are continually acting upon the principle of self-ownership; and practically insist upon their right to dispose of themselves as they please, without being accountable to God or man. Christ abhors this course of conduct, denies their right thus to dispose of themselves, claims them as his own, as having been at first created by Him, and afterwards redeemed by his blood. He therefore insists, that they shall cease to contend, in theory and practice, that they are their own, and have a right to dispose of themselves as they please.

3. It implies the renunciation of the claim of absolute proprietorship in any thing--that you recognize the truth, that you have nothing that you can properly call your own--that every thing is God's, and that you are his steward.

4. It implies the hearty and practical recognition of universal stewardship--that every thing you have and are--your being--life, health, body, soul, time, possessions, friends, all, are to be regarded and treated by you as in the highest possible sense belonging to God; and that for every thing, you are to give Him, as his steward, a strict and impartial account.

5. It implies that you as really feel, that all your possessions are God's, and that you have no right to dispose of them, only by his order, as you would feel in regard to a farm, a house, or any piece of property which you had sold, and of which you had given title deeds, and only remained in possession as a tenant at will. Suppose you had sold your farm or your house; title deeds had been executed, delivered, and recorded, and you were only allowed to retain them, till the owner comes or sends some one to take possession. In such a case, you understand very well in what light you would regard his property. If you are an honest man, you would not think of selling it, or making any disposition of it whatever, except to husband it to the best advantage for the owner--that whenever he should appear or send to take possession, you would have no thought of demurring to his right to take possession. You would feel all the time, "This is not mine." This would have a practical bearing upon all your conduct. You would expect of course, at any time, to deliver possession at the call of the owner, without gainsaying or resistance.

6. It implies a course of conduct in all respects corresponding to the state of mind of which I have just spoken. It is a state of mind in which you would no more think of disposing of the things in your possession without consulting God, and being satisfied in respect to his will upon the subject, than you would think of going and disposing of your neighbor's goods without consulting him. The man who forsakes all, in the sense of the text, feels, that with respect to his fellow men, his possessions are his own in reference to them; but in reference to God, his conscious and practical feeling is, that these things are no more his--that he has no more right to dispose of them, but at the bidding of God, than he has to dispose of his neighbor's things.

7. It implies the doing of all this from love to God, and not, as I have said, upon the principle of barter and exchange. It is to be done upon the same principle upon which an affectionate wife would forsake all that she has, and go into banishment with her husband, from affection to him, and not because she expected a reward.

8. It implies the joyful, and not constrained doing of this. It is to be considered, not as the least of two evils, but as that which is right in itself, just, useful, and to be chosen and loved for its own sake. It really is strictly just, for as a matter of fact you are not your own, and are mere tenants at will, with respect to all your possessions. It is therefore, really a matter of strict justice--that you should forsake all that you have, in the sense explained. It should be done by you, because it is just and right, and from a love to right--not from fear of punishment if you do not do it.

9. It implies entire consecration to God of yourself and all that you have and are; and nothing short of this is implied in forsaking all for Christ.

Quest

 

[Pete_Martinez]

I find myself constantly battling with these issues, and there are some verses I wanted to add that I hope will help as well.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (not the rich, not the great, not the mighty, not the self sufficient)
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

If I truly want to be spiritually rich, I must be poor. If I want to be spiritually mighty, I must be weak. If I want to be sufficient, I must be worthless. Forsaking my own righteousness and embracing the righteousness that God provides. Didn't Christ rebuke the Laodiceans for being too strong and rich and satisfied in themselves that they had kicked him out of the Church?

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OF ME, saith the LORD.

It's funny because just as I was writing this the Holy Spirit gave me a small illumination. The beatitudes are in degrees. First you are poor in spirit, then you mourn, then you become meek and hunger and thirst after righteousness, then you become merciful, then you become pure in heart, then you become a peacemaker, and finally your walk becomes one that causes you to become persecuted for his sake. It appears that Christ fully saves when we become poor in spirit and beg him to save us, he gives the same benediction for those who are poor in spirit as for those who have "conquered" and are now persecuted for their faith. I can see why some would say, once saved always saved, because it is that faith of a mustard seed that one day fully grows into a tree.

I had more to add but I believe God has erased it from my mind, I think what has been said is sufficient.

 

[VW]

I find myself constantly battling with these issues, and there are some verses I wanted to add that I hope will help as well.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (not the rich, not the great, not the mighty, not the self sufficient)
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

If I truly want to be spiritually rich, I must be poor. If I want to be spiritually mighty, I must be weak. If I want to be sufficient, I must be worthless. Forsaking my own righteousness and embracing the righteousness that God provides. Didn't Christ rebuke the Laodiceans for being too strong and rich and satisfied in themselves that they had kicked him out of the Church?

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OF ME, saith the LORD.

It's funny because just as I was writing this the Holy Spirit gave me a small illumination. The beatitudes are in degrees. First you are poor in spirit, then you mourn, then you become meek and hunger and thirst after righteousness, then you become merciful, then you become pure in heart, then you become a peacemaker, and finally your walk becomes one that causes you to become persecuted for his sake. It appears that Christ fully saves when we become poor in spirit and beg him to save us, he gives the same benediction for those who are poor in spirit as for those who have "conquered" and are now persecuted for their faith. I can see why some would say, once saved always saved, because it is that faith of a mustard seed that one day fully grows into a tree.

I had more to add but I believe God has erased it from my mind, I think what has been said is sufficient.

you just keep listening to his voice. he guides us into all truth.

 

[livingbygrace]

I find myself constantly battling with these issues, and there are some verses I wanted to add that I hope will help as well.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (not the rich, not the great, not the mighty, not the self sufficient)
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

If I truly want to be spiritually rich, I must be poor. If I want to be spiritually mighty, I must be weak. If I want to be sufficient, I must be worthless. Forsaking my own righteousness and embracing the righteousness that God provides. Didn't Christ rebuke the Laodiceans for being too strong and rich and satisfied in themselves that they had kicked him out of the Church?

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OF ME, saith the LORD.

It's funny because just as I was writing this the Holy Spirit gave me a small illumination. The beatitudes are in degrees. First you are poor in spirit, then you mourn, then you become meek and hunger and thirst after righteousness, then you become merciful, then you become pure in heart, then you become a peacemaker, and finally your walk becomes one that causes you to become persecuted for his sake. It appears that Christ fully saves when we become poor in spirit and beg him to save us, he gives the same benediction for those who are poor in spirit as for those who have "conquered" and are now persecuted for their faith. I can see why some would say, once saved always saved, because it is that faith of a mustard seed that one day fully grows into a tree.

I had more to add but I believe God has erased it from my mind, I think what has been said is sufficient.

I believe we all battle with these issues. To me we need to realise it is only God who can change us through his son and the Holy Spirit. We cannot change ourselves. When we submit to Him and ask Him to change us, realising the futility in our own strength I believe we see the greatest results

 

[shad]

I find myself constantly battling with these issues, and there are some verses I wanted to add that I hope will help as well.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (not the rich, not the great, not the mighty, not the self sufficient)
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

If I truly want to be spiritually rich, I must be poor. If I want to be spiritually mighty, I must be weak. If I want to be sufficient, I must be worthless. Forsaking my own righteousness and embracing the righteousness that God provides. Didn't Christ rebuke the Laodiceans for being too strong and rich and satisfied in themselves that they had kicked him out of the Church?

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their RIGHTEOUSNESS IS OF ME, saith the LORD.

It's funny because just as I was writing this the Holy Spirit gave me a small illumination. The beatitudes are in degrees. First you are poor in spirit, then you mourn, then you become meek and hunger and thirst after righteousness, then you become merciful, then you become pure in heart, then you become a peacemaker, and finally your walk becomes one that causes you to become persecuted for his sake. It appears that Christ fully saves when we become poor in spirit and beg him to save us, he gives the same benediction for those who are poor in spirit as for those who have "conquered" and are now persecuted for their faith. I can see why some would say, once saved always saved, because it is that faith of a mustard seed that one day fully grows into a tree.

I had more to add but I believe God has erased it from my mind, I think what has been said is sufficient.

The scriptures teach us to keep hiding the word of God in our heart and let it dwell richly in all wisdom. Meditating on it day and night. Learning it line upon line and precepy upon precept. Studying it to show ourself approved and rightly dividing it so that we won't have to be ashamed. We are to walk in the light of God's word by mixing faith with it and when we do that and we go from faith to faith and we will have an ear to hear that still small voice that comes from the Son who speaks to us in these last days we live in. Then the Holy Spirit will direct our hearts in the love of God and we will be the true worshipers that God is seeking who worship in spirit and truth. This is what believing is all about and that is carried right over into the work of the ministry.

 

[VW]

the purpose of the cross is to remove the old man corrupted by the flesh, so that the new man, in the image of christ can live. i have been vrucified with christ, yet i live, but not me, but christ in me. and the life i now live in the flesh is by the faith of the son of god.

the word of the cross ............is to us who are being saved, the power of god.

for if by the spirit, you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you are the children of god.

 

[QuestionTime]

Sorry to everyone posting in the thread for not responding to them. I just can't find the energy right now.

I take this most excellent quote from Charles Finney and his lecture: SINNERS NOT WILLING TO BE CHRISTIANS

"I was once laboring in a revival where the most prominent man in the congregation, in several respects, became greatly disturbed about his soul. But he would maintain that he was willing to be a Christian.
His wife was a Christian woman, and prayed much for him; and he professed a willingness to be a Christian, and insisted upon it that he was unable to become one.

He became very restive, and even angry under the preaching; as my object was from time to time to show him, with all other sinners in the congregation, that they were not willing to be Christians, and that this was their only difficulty.

One night the truth pressed him so hard that he was very angry, and he used some very improper language, even before he left the house of God. But he spent a very uneasy night; and early in the morning he arose and wandered off from his house, away to a grove of wood in the distance. There he knelt down and attempted to pray.

He told me afterwards, that he felt as if he must get alone, where he could pray and use his voice without restraint.

When he had knelt to pray he found his mouth closed and that his heart would not pray. He felt a rebellious spirit within him; and he found himself even unwilling to ask for the grace and mercy of God with any heart in his prayer. Finding no prayer in his heart, it occurred to him that he would repeat the Lord's Prayer.

He began--"Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name." He said he felt condemned, and as if this were hypocritical in him to call God his Father when he had never treated him as a Father--he had never obeyed him as a Father--he had never honored him as a Father.

And then the petition, "Hallowed be thy name,"--he said he did not care for the sacredness of the name of God. He was a man that was sometimes profane, and had often used the name of God profanely;--and now that he should say, "Hallowed be thy name!"

And then the next petition, "Thy kingdom come:"--he said he could hardly say it. He knew that he had no sympathy with the kingdom of God; and that he was not honest and earnest when he asked God that his kingdom might come. He felt an inward reluctance to express such a sentiment as "thy kingdom come."
But at the next petition he found himself brought to a stand:--"Thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven." He said that he could not say it. He found that his will rose up against God's will. What! shall I pray that God's will may be done? Am I willing that it may be done in respect to me? Am I willing to do it myself.

Am I truly willing to do the will of God as they do the will of God in heaven? He said his mouth was shut, He saw at once that the difficulty was his unwillingness.

There he stood on his knees, confounded. Now the appalling fact was out before him, so that he could no longer resist it, that he was unwilling to do or suffer the will of God; hence that he was unwilling to be a Christian; that he always had been unwilling; and there on his knees a suppliant before God, he saw that he was in rebellion against the will of God.

But what should he do? I think he said he sweat with agony. It seemed as if his sins would crush him. He saw where the difficulty lay; the whole difficulty lay in his unwillingness; and a load of guilt was pressing him down to death.

But just here it occurred to him, "why should I not be willing? Why should not God's will be done? Ought not his will to be done? Is not his will perfect? Should not all his creatures submit to his will? Whose will should govern? Is it not right, is it not safe, is it not altogether best that I, and that all beings, should do the will of God?"

Such considerations flashed over his mind; and he said that he gathered up all his soul, and at the top of his voice he cried--"Thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven."

He said that with his words he put forth the whole strength of his will, and yielded all up to the will of God. In a moment a great calm came over him,--he breathed easily and sweetly. He rose from his knees and walked back to his house in peace; and from that moment he was a man of God. So he lived and so he died.

See now! he did not wait to be made willing; but when he saw what the difficulty was, he instantly, as he said, gathered up all his energies and became willing. He gave his consent--he yielded the point. He was not passive in waiting, but active in willing. This is the way to do, sinner--to gather up your energies, and be willing. Consent as you would consent to do anything else; and throw yourself upon his sovereign mercy." - Charles Finney

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Greetings,

I said that I wasn't going to post again tonight in CC, but I am so bothered with this. I am so bothered in fact that I found a really good website online earlier and sent an email to the author. He is a Christian who has experienced Entire Sanctification. His website is full of resources and I can tell he is genuine.

Anyway, he said he was very ill and therefore he forwarded my email to a holiness preacher in the USA. I have yet to receive a response from the preacher, as this was just about 8 hours ago, maybe less.

Here is my question for those who read this thread: (not exactly what I asked the holiness preacher)

I am really confused by what I am reading regarding Entire Sanctification. I hear that famous hymn "Just as I am" and I read online that we are to come to God just as we are. But I also read - often from the same author - that we have to be living a holy life in order to be Sanctified Entirely, and that "we" must first set "ourselves" apart.
These two concepts seem contradictory to one another. Either I come just as I am, or I have to do A,B and C before I can be Sanctified. What is the correct answer?

Has anyone at CC had this experience, and is qualified to answer?

Quest

 

[VW]

Greetings,

I said that I wasn't going to post again tonight in CC, but I am so bothered with this. I am so bothered in fact that I found a really good website online earlier and sent an email to the author. He is a Christian who has experienced Entire Sanctification. His website is full of resources and I can tell he is genuine.

Anyway, he said he was very ill and therefore he forwarded my email to a holiness preacher in the USA. I have yet to receive a response from the preacher, as this was just about 8 hours ago, maybe less.

Here is my question for those who read this thread: (not exactly what I asked the holiness preacher)

I am really confused by what I am reading regarding Entire Sanctification. I hear that famous hymn "Just as I am" and I read online that we are to come to God just as we are. But I also read - often from the same author - that we have to be living a holy life in order to be Sanctified Entirely, and that "we" must first set "ourselves" apart.
These two concepts seem contradictory to one another. Either I come just as I am, or I have to do A,B and C before I can be Sanctified. What is the correct answer?

Has anyone at CC had this experience, and is qualified to answer?

Quest

the answer is simple, and has been hidden by our enemy for a very long time.

we come to god just as we are when we are convicted of our need, and this conviction is of the holy spirit. when we come we receive grace, which is closeness to god. when we receive his spirit, we are born of the spirit of god, and that which is born of god is perfect and pure and holy. what these are calling sanctification has already been done, if we receive his spirit.

i was crucified with christ, and the old sinful man that i was died there. when i was raised in christ, to live again, it was to utter perfection. i still have this fleshly body, but i am not indebted to live for it, but rather for him who died and was raised for me, that i should walk in newness of life.

it is already done.

 

[livingbygrace]

the answer is simple, and has been hidden by our enemy for a very long time.

we come to god just as we are when we are convicted of our need, and this conviction is of the holy spirit. when we come we receive grace, which is closeness to god. when we receive his spirit, we are born of the spirit of god, and that which is born of god is perfect and pure and holy. what these are calling sanctification has already been done, if we receive his spirit.

i was crucified with christ, and the old sinful man that i was died there. when i was raised in christ, to live again, it was to utter perfection. i still have this fleshly body, but i am not indebted to live for it, but rather for him who died and was raised for me, that i should walk in newness of life.

it is already done.

May I ask then why Paul said.

If while we seek to become justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:17

Paul was talking about people who undoubtedly would have the Holy Spirit, and have been baptised in the spirit

 

[VW]

May I ask then why Paul said.

If while we seek to become justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:17

Paul was talking about people who undoubtedly would have the Holy Spirit, and have been baptised in the spirit

if you are walking by the spirit, are you a sinner? if you do sin while in the spirit, you will know from him, right then, and it will go under the blood, gone and you are clean again.

whether we walk in the spirit is up to us. he will not force us to walk in him.

when paul was writing this to this people, they were seeking to be justified by the law, and the only result of that is sin. paul asked them if they had received the spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith.

see the difference? walk by the law and be a sinner, or walk by faith, in the spirit, and be holy.

 

[livingbygrace]

if you are walking by the spirit, are you a sinner? if you do sin while in the spirit, you will know from him, right then, and it will go under the blood, gone and you are clean again.

whether we walk in the spirit is up to us. he will not force us to walk in him.

when paul was writing this to this people, they were seeking to be justified by the law, and the only result of that is sin. paul asked them if they had received the spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith.

see the difference? walk by the law and be a sinner, or walk by faith, in the spirit, and be holy.

TRhat is completely false. Paul was not giving as an example people who were living under law. If he was he would never have asked the question 'Does Christ promote sin, there would have been no need. And he quaslified that in the next verse. If I rebuild what I destroyed? I prove that I am a lawbreaker. In other words if I return to living under law and try to rid myself of my sin I will fail and prove I am a lawbreaker.

 

[NoahsDad]

The name of this thread is desceptive.
You should change it to 'You Too can be Calvinist"
Because this is a calvinistic view of the Law of God and Not the true interpretation of the 10 commandments.
Are the 10 commandments evil?
To be Christian is to be Christ Like........Jesus told how to be like Him,and to walk the walk He did,He Never once said that Youd Not have to do anything but believe in him ,In fact He said to believe ON Him and His sacrifice for one and All time,and you Will be saved,or your sins will be forgiven ,thereby taking away all need for the BLOOD ORDINANCES such as the need for circomcision and sacrificing bulls goats and sheep.Not Taking away the 10 commandments nor disanulling the blessings of Loving the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind ,and body......And loving your neighbor as you love yourself,which has been toted in another post on this very thread,but mysteriously over looked in favor of the calvonist point of view,not of works but of faith salvation,or better discribed as the Not of "faith but the Holy Spirit" movement,
If this theology were truely based in scripture only I dont think James would have addressed the theology in his book by phraising the term,Show me your faith and I'll show you my faith through my works"

 

[VW]

TRhat is completely false. Paul was not giving as an example people who were living under law. If he was he would never have asked the question 'Does Christ promote sin, there would have been no need. And he quaslified that in the next verse. If I rebuild what I destroyed? I prove that I am a lawbreaker. In other words if I return to living under law and try to rid myself of my sin I will fail and prove I am a lawbreaker.

what was the whole point of paul's letter to the galatians?