Whats the deal with Catholics?

[posthuman]

do you compare this woman to Him?

and why don't you instead pray to some dead saint who at least has a track record & some experience on the matter?

like Moses?

The LORD also said to Moses:
“I have seen this people, and they are indeed a stiff-necked people. Now leave Me alone, so that My anger can burn against them and I can destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
But Moses interceded with the LORD his God:
“LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people You brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and a strong hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘He brought them out with an evil intent to kill them in the mountains and wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from Your great anger and relent concerning this disaster planned for Your people. Remember Your servants Abraham, Isaac, and Israel — You swore to them by Your very self and declared, ‘I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and will give your offspring all this land that I have promised, and they will inherit it forever.’ ”
So the LORD relented concerning the disaster He said He would bring on His people.
(Exodus 32:9-14)

​

are catholics all pro-Trump, too, since he also has no experience or track record, other than bankruptcy?

here's Mary's track-record on intercession:

When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him,
“They don’t have any wine.”
“What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman? ”
Jesus asked.
“My hour has not yet come.”
(John 2:3-4)
​

​

 

[posthuman]

and why don't you instead pray to some dead saint who at least has a track record & some experience on the matter?

like Moses?

____________________________________________
​

 

[redeemed2014]

Hi blue,

Yes Jesus is our one mediator. But where does it say "only"? I don't think I'm familiar with where that is at. Just curious.

Also, how do you know Mary cannot hear our prayers?

Also, Jesus is our one mediator as in "primary" not as in "sole" or "one and only".

We know this for a fact because we know for a fact that we have at least 2 mediators: "...but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words." (Romans 8:26)

Any Trinitarian Christian will have to admit that we have at least two people mediating for us since the Holy Spirit and Christ are two separate people.

Also, Jesus shares much of His roles with us. One of them is as mini-mediators. We do that every time we share the Gospel with someone. We do that every time we pray for someone. And we are told to do that and that that is "good and pleasing" to God when we do:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men....This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God...."(1 Tim. 2:1-4)

Christ's mediatorship is above all others. Without His...forget about it. He bridges the distance between God and man. However, He shares that role with us and allows us to be mini-mediators with Him. That's what Christians are called to do for each other. That's why Paul says he is praying for others and asks their prayer for him all over the place in the New Testament. And that is why all Christians, whether part of the Body on earth or part of the body in Heaven (like Mary) can pray for each other.

God bless.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The first verse I am sharing with you is stating that all three are one we have a triune God (the trinity)



The second two verses are showing that the Word is the Lord Jesus Christ who was the perfect sacrifice for our sins (death, burial, Resurrection).

Yes, I am telling you that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

I might have misread your post but I am assuming that you are catholic (I was once a catholic also). There is only one way into heaven and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ. No one else can save you, not Mary, a priest, a pastor, or a man walking down the street. One of the most shocking things that i learned when I was a catholic, because I was never taught it, was that the Lord Jesus Christ who hung on a cross for our sins, was the same God who created everything. If you would like, I encourage you to message me privately if you would like more scripture regarding what brought me to a knowledge of a true salvation experience. I can also share them here if you would like, I just do not want it to get lost in the thread if you are interested.

Any other catholic that would be interested is more than welcome to private message me also. I am not here to criticize, I just want to get the knowledge of salvation to you.

God Bless

 

[posthuman]

new improved version.



i'm off now on the 'campaign trail'
talk to you all again tomorrow . .

 

[Angela53510]

Just to confirm, this is my first time on here and I live in Boise, Idaho. I joined yesterday after finding this site. Sorry for breaking "caps" regulations

Just to confirm - I checked this profile before I posted, and it said, male 27, from Wisonsin. So you must have changed the location. But then, you would probably know better where you live, than I do! Now it says male 27 from Boise Idaho. I've been there a few times, have you?

So next time, a screen shot, ok?

And no regulations about caps, just common sense. Just be part of the forum you don't have to stick out like a sore thumb. We leave sticking out to the actual words in the posts.

And welcome to cc!

 

[Nikki84]

Again the woman in Revelation 12 is the Nation of Israel, not Mary.

This is why God smote the Catholic Church long ago because the Catholics have walked away from God.

What smote (smoting?) are you referring to?

 

[Bestil_Andno]

There, that's what I meant.

Hey Test.

How, would you say, Christians build an intimate or personal relationship with Jesus?

 

[Demi777]

Who is in the body of Christ? Knowing Christ is the head? Have you been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit?

Its written in the bible to be baptised in the name of Jesus.. not the trinity the catholic church created.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”.

The body of Christ are all TRUE believers.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Forgive me but I work best working one point at a time. This point is always brought up by catholic apologist using the verse...

KJV 1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.(1 Tim. 3:15 KJV)

I guess a person is to succumb and say 'the Church'.
But I will say that it is the SCRIPTURE that establishes that fact, thus the Scriptures are even more foundational.

One point at a time. I like it that way too. But it sure doesn't always feel that way or go that way, huh?

You can say "succomb" if you want...I would call that just being honest. According to Scripture, the pillar and ground of the Truth is the Church.

Let me see if your other statement makes sense. You are basically saying that since Scripture establishes the fact that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, that means that Scripture is really the pillar and ground of Truth even more so than the Church.

Interesting. But the Scriptures didn't say that. You are reading your own idea into there. Wouldn't it be more honest to just say, "Since Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth.....then the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth." ?

In actuality, the Church pre-existed the New Testament so it was the pillar and ground of the Truth before Paul's letter to Timothy was even written. It was the pillar and ground of the Truth before the canon of the New Testament was decided. And nowhere does Scripture say anything along the lines of "well, now that we have the invention of a printing press and high literacy rates....The Bible is now the pillar and ground of the Truth more so than the Church.

God Bless.

 

[Demi777]

I see you got a few likes on your image there.

I consider it almost blasphemous.
At the very least, it's in very poor taste.

Fran

Praying to a necklace with beads and a cross is more blasphemous. If you dont like it dont look at it. I got it from a cathikic friend.
Theres many things I find tasteless in here, but I am not stuck-up enough to pick everything out one by one.
Matthew 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[redeemed2014]

One point at a time. I like it that way too. But it sure doesn't always feel that way or go that way, huh?

You can say "succomb" if you want...I would call that just being honest. According to Scripture, the pillar and ground of the Truth is the Church.

Let me see if your other statement makes sense. You are basically saying that since Scripture establishes the fact that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, that means that Scripture is really the pillar and ground of Truth even more so than the Church.

Interesting. But the Scriptures didn't say that. You are reading your own idea into there. Wouldn't it be more honest to just say, "Since Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth.....then the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth." ?

In actuality, the Church pre-existed the New Testament so it was the pillar and ground of the Truth before Paul's letter to Timothy was even written. It was the pillar and ground of the Truth before the canon of the New Testament was decided. And nowhere does Scripture say anything along the lines of "well, now that we have the invention of a printing press and high literacy rates....The Bible is now the pillar and ground of the Truth more so than the Church.

God Bless.

I guess it would depend on what church you are going to. Are they teaching the truth or are they teaching doctrines of devils. The truth comes from the Word of God, do not forget before it was written it was spoken. The writers in the bible penned Gods Word as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. If any church is not teaching things that are in the bible, I advise you run and run fast.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We were given the bible to study so we can show ourselves approved.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

But I will say that it is the SCRIPTURE that establishes that fact, thus the Scriptures are even more foundational.

You seem to place more authority on what you say....then what is actually recorded in the Scriptures. (Your statement above cannot be found in Scripture.)

Forgive me if I am wrong. But that is sort of a key part of being Protestant, isn't it? Having the freedom or ability or whatever to interpret the Bible for ones self? If that is true, then Catholics should be afforded the very same freedom and whenever anyone disagrees with someone elses interpretation of Scripture....nobody but nobody should have a right to tell anybody else that their interpretation is wrong? Right? Lutherans, Baptists, Catholics, non-denom denom's, Presbyterians, and all the rest. We can all say that we disagree with each others interpretations....but nobody has the authority to say anybody else's interpretation is wrong. They should all be equally valid, it seems. Even if they are contradictory.

For we all have the same freedom to read and interpret and be led by the Holy Spirit.

Unless we are illiterate, which much of the world still is and large numbers of humanity have been illiterate throughout history. How in the world is an illiterate person supposed to know the Truth if they cannot read the Bible for themselves? And most people couldn't do that until the printing press came along. Some people today still can't.

So they need to hear it preached. And depending on who they are listening to....they are gonna get different messages for sure.

If find the lack of unity among Christians to be a sad situation.

 

[garee]

One point at a time. I like it that way too. But it sure doesn't always feel that way or go that way, huh?

You can say "succomb" if you want...I would call that just being honest. According to Scripture, the pillar and ground of the Truth is the Church.

Let me see if your other statement makes sense. You are basically saying that since Scripture establishes the fact that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, that means that Scripture is really the pillar and ground of Truth even more so than the Church.

Interesting. But the Scriptures didn't say that. You are reading your own idea into there. Wouldn't it be more honest to just say, "Since Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth.....then the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth." ?

In actuality, the Church pre-existed the New Testament so it was the pillar and ground of the Truth before Paul's letter to Timothy was even written. It was the pillar and ground of the Truth before the canon of the New Testament was decided. And nowhere does Scripture say anything along the lines of "well, now that we have the invention of a printing press and high literacy rates....The Bible is now the pillar and ground of the Truth more so than the Church.

God Bless.

When you build a faith on necromancy you make the bible say anything you want. The scripture does not say the church as that seen is the pillar and foundation of absolute truth .

Every-time the Catholics offer their opinion in respect to the pillar and ground they leave out "the living God" out the that equalization.

As the house of God is modified by the word church . The words living God is modified by the pillar and ground to truth .

Both are of God. The church did not build itself. so it cannot be of itself. Its the revealed will of God in respect to his faith that the gates of hell could never prevail against not the things of men (necromancy)

1Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, "the" pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Yes, but using Mary to get to Jesus is a little strange you got to admit.

No. I won't admit that. (But I will admit that I understand how you could think that it is a little strange.)

In my mindset, that's kindof like saying "Yes, but using crossnote to get to Jesus is a little strange you got to admit." if someone has asked crossnote to pray for them because they are struggling with something in life.

That's not strange at all. Christians ask other Christians to pray for them and we do it because it is the right thing to do and we are told to do it in the Bible. Mary is a Christian who we can ask to pray for us just like we can ask crossnote to pray for us. And if they are both good Christians and love as they should, they will both pray for us.

That's how we look at it. Mary and the Saints are just Christians who are no longer on earth, but still connected to the Body of Christ.

And they are not divine or gods or goddesses or anything like that, either.

So it isn't strange to me at all to ask them to pray for me.

BTW, just like a person can pray directly to Jesus AND still ask crossnote to pray for them as well.....We still pray directly to Jesus AND can still ask Mary to pray for us as well.

It's a big family. And that's just how families work.


It is interesting to me the different mindsets that we have. It is difficult to explain via text only...but I guess that is the best we can do.

Peace.

 

[Magenta]

You seem to place more authority on what you say....then what is actually recorded in the Scriptures. (Your statement above cannot be found in Scripture.)

Forgive me if I am wrong. But that is sort of a key part of being Protestant, isn't it? Having the freedom or ability or whatever to interpret the Bible for ones self? If that is true, then Catholics should be afforded the very same freedom and whenever anyone disagrees with someone elses interpretation of Scripture....nobody but nobody should have a right to tell anybody else that their interpretation is wrong? Right? Lutherans, Baptists, Catholics, non-denom denom's, Presbyterians, and all the rest. We can all say that we disagree with each others interpretations....but nobody has the authority to say anybody else's interpretation is wrong. They should all be equally valid, it seems. Even if they are contradictory.

For we all have the same freedom to read and interpret and be led by the Holy Spirit.

Unless we are illiterate, which much of the world still is and large numbers of humanity have been illiterate throughout history. How in the world is an illiterate person supposed to know the Truth if they cannot read the Bible for themselves? And most people couldn't do that until the printing press came along. Some people today still can't.

So they need to hear it preached. And depending on who they are listening to....they are gonna get different messages for sure.

If find the lack of unity among Christians to be a sad situation.

Yes, you are wrong. Also, the RCC burned people at the stake for translating Scripture (such as John Wycliffe and William Tyndale). They did the same for those who preached the Bible.​ They wanted to keep people ignorant so they could be controlled easily. Even the mass was being said in Latin, not called a dead language for nothing, right up to during my lifetime, with the priest performing much of the mass with his back to the congregation. The RCC insisted for centuries that she was the only true representative of the faith, despite her many heresies, abuses, and corruptions. Catholics do not have the freedoms to believe you seem to think they should have either. Some things are mandated (compulsory) for them to believe, such as the heretical ex cathedra dogmas concerning Mary that have absolutely no basis in Scripture.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

The scriptures do not teach us to seek after the departed in worship. That is a Catholic tradition to walk after that seen, the flesh by which they stand out from the rest of Christianity.

Hi garee.

Forgive me. I want to respond to a couple of points that you said but some of what you wrote, well, I didn't really understand it. And I have trouble being concise so I edited out the parts except the parts I may comment on. I hope that that is ok with you.

I don't understand exactly what you mean above. But I will say that Catholics worship God and God alone in the Trinity. We worship no one and nothing else. Well, I suppose some individual Catholics might worship other things and be guilty of
idolatry, but if they do that they are going against Church teaching....not with it. And that can probably happen in other churches, as well.

The faith we hear God by and through in whom we cannot see, is His faith and not that of any disembodied worker with a familiar spirit in a hope it is an entity that has departed from this world...We hear God through His word not through a legion of disembodied worker with a familiar spirit . Our Father in heaven is the only disembodied Spirit that can commune with the believer through the Spirit of Christ .

You have an interesting style of writing. I agree we hear God through His Word and not through the saints. We aren't trying to "commune" with the saints in the sense of calling them over here so we can see them and talk to them...like a seance. That's not what we do or even try to do.

All we do is ask Christians in Heaven to pray for us who are still struggling our way along here on earth. That's it.

Clearly there are no other spirits by which we commune with that not seen . The spirits in respect to what the Catholics call patron saints must be lying or unclean spirits also called the legion because there are many. The many come up as one as and is why a face in respect to Catholic medallion must be available when seeking after one.(3500 to choose from and rising)

You seem to think that we sortof do seances and try to see and hear the Saints. We don't do either of those. You are simply wrong about the medallion. We don't seek after saints like some people do in a seance. I've never even heard of a single Catholic in my life ever doing that! That is a misconception. If you know for a fact that people are doing that....they are living contrary to Catholic teaching. The Church teaches forcefully against such things.

The Mary (not the sleeping Mary the Bible speaks of) some worship

Mary is no more "sleeping" than Moses is. The Bible often uses the term "sleeping" when talking about death. Nobody that i know of worships Mary and if anyone does, they are acting AGAINST Catholic teaching. They are wrong.

they are required to serve as an "patron saints"

.

This isn't true. You have been given some bad information somewhere along the way. Just saying.

They are appointed by the Pope who serves as an alternate Holy Spirit (one seen) at the saint factory in Rome.

Alternate Holy Spirit? Saint Factory? Holy smokes! You've been given a lot of bad information. Very untrue stuff above.

God calls patron saints, (the workers with a familiar spirit ) an abomination .

I don't think so. I don't think the ancient Israelites living at the time 2 Kings was written had patron saints.

the unclean spirits that the Catholics must seek after..Again as that in which the Catholics must call patron saints or they lose their queen of heaven and Catholicism falters and dies..

????????

Peace to you.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Is Jesus for sure a more SURE mediator than the Pope and the fathers? Or according to Catholic traditon of the fathers as a law not subject to change we do need men to teach us????

Hi garee.

To your first question: Yes!!

To your second question: Well, I don't know why you put an OR there. I don't see how Jesus being our mediator relates to men teaching us. But anyways here's some stuff Jesus said:

"Go therefore, and make disciples....teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you..." (Matthew 28:19-20)

"He who hears you, hears Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me..." (Luke 10:16)

"...whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in Heaven..." (Matthew 18:18)

"....and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.." (Matthew 18:17)

It seems Jesus built His church...and gave it His own authority.

Peace.

 

[posthuman]

One point at a time. I like it that way too. But it sure doesn't always feel that way or go that way, huh?

You can say "succomb" if you want...I would call that just being honest. According to Scripture, the pillar and ground of the Truth is the Church.

Let me see if your other statement makes sense. You are basically saying that since Scripture establishes the fact that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, that means that Scripture is really the pillar and ground of Truth even more so than the Church.

Interesting. But the Scriptures didn't say that. You are reading your own idea into there. Wouldn't it be more honest to just say, "Since Scripture tells us that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth.....then the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth." ?

In actuality, the Church pre-existed the New Testament so it was the pillar and ground of the Truth before Paul's letter to Timothy was even written. It was the pillar and ground of the Truth before the canon of the New Testament was decided. And nowhere does Scripture say anything along the lines of "well, now that we have the invention of a printing press and high literacy rates....The Bible is now the pillar and ground of the Truth more so than the Church.

God Bless.

and all this may be cogently arguable, but all this is still secondary, because one can have all the 'church' and all the liturgy they can possibly imagine, and one can have 'scripture' and the Bible' in every form and even have the original autographs, or even have sat and listened at His feet as He taught in synagogues and in the hill country and in houses --

-- but if you do not have Christ in you, working in and through you, all that advantage amounts to nothing.

the foundation - and no other foundation can any man lay - is Jesus Christ.

Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it:
except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.
(Psalm 127:1 - of Solomon)​

 

[Bestil_Andno]

We should not need any mediator as a go-between God and ourselves for when Jesus died on the cross the temple curtain was torn in two therefore giving us direct access to God Himself - no need to go through anyone else including Mary.

Hi MPW,

So, just curious. If a friend of yours ask you to pray for them, do you tell them "No."? Do you tell them what you stated above..."you don't need any mediator....no need to go through anyone else....so no, I won't pray for you"?

Or do you pray for them?

I'm curious.

I do not understand why Catholics revere Mary the way they do, Mary should be respected as Mother of The King of course but even Jesus Himself appeared not to revere her in the way Catholics do. Read Matt 12:48.

I understand and it can be alot to try to explain but basically it goes like this.

There is really only two things special about Mary.

First, she said "Yes" to God. (She could've said "No". God wouldn't force Himself upon her.) She said "Yes" totally and completely and in a way that most Christians probably only wish they would.

Second, who her Son is. You see, when it comes to what is so great about Mary...It isn't really about her at all! What makes her so great is who her Son is! He is God! He is the King of all Kings! He is the Creator of all things....including her! That makes her a very, very one -of -a -kind -in -all -of-human- history -ever -to -be Mother. She held God! She kissed God! She raised God!

At the risk of ruffling a parrot's feathers.....she is the Queen of Heaven!!

Jesus is a King in the line of David. He is the last King in the line of David. His Kingdom will not end.
In the Davidic Kingdom, the Queen is the Kings' Mother! Not his wife because he often had many wives. Solomon had like 700 wives and 300 concubines or something. So the Queen was his mother.

I don't have time to go into depth right now. Here's a link you can look at if you wish:

Is Mary's Queenship Biblical? | Catholic Answers

Finally, Jesus honored his Mother and Father (one of God's Top Ten) perfectly!!! Jesus was perfect and obeyed the 10 commandments perfectly. So he perfectly honored Mary, more so than we ever could!

In Matthew 12 that you mentioned I think He is merely pointing out that spiritual relationship with Him is stronger than natural family bonds. Of course, Mary is doubly blessed then, because she has a natural mother-Son relationship with Jesus AND she gave herself completely over to God's will. Far from not revering her, Jesus shows that she is doubly blessed!

Peace.

 

[posthuman]

(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by
replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of
Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was
given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order
to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis
were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology
occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal
point of Isis worship.

Miri, thank you for this post -- it is very enlightening, and i totally missed it earlier; i jumped into this thread several pages in and didn't go back to look at the posts previous to where i hopped on-board the bus.

this in particular that i quoted, explains something that i have understood for decades, but never looked into historically - how that idolization of Mary, whether institutionalized or emergent, mirrors and amounts to the whoring idolatry of Israel in her joining worship of the pagan goddess Ashereh to the only true God.

she goes by many names in many cultures in and around the mid-east: Ishtar, Ashereh, Isis, etc. she is the 'wife of Ba'al' and the queen of heaven' and 'mother of god' -- and all these pagan titles are ascribed extra-scripturally by the RCC to Mary. this is who their 'Easter' is named after - and the date chosen not in conjunction with what is historical fact, the passover feast of the Jews, but with an annual pagan harvest/fertility celebration that already existed, and was simply assimilated into the RCC's peculiar amalgam of rituals and replacement-gods that go by the name 'saints' by assigning her to Mary and treating her exactly like the goddess. all that is missing is temple prostitutes dedicated to her, but somehow i suspect that may not be entirely 'missing' either; just lost & buried in the histories.


it has been obvious to me from understanding what was going on in the record of Israel's unfaithfulness, and seeing how she is uncommonly revered in this erstwhile church. it is why we comprehend that she may be called the 'whore of babylon' - whoring after polytheistic practice covered thinly by deceitful 'theologies' and centered in that city that is figuratively called babylon, which mixes godliness with the lust of money and power and all kinds of worldly riches.

seeing that historical evidence backs up this intuition is gratifying. thanks again


of course our RCC friends, being blinded to the truth for the purpose of revealing the mystery of godliness, justice and grace, cannot see this at the present time -- but in time, everything will be laid bare and all things in darkness will be brought into light.