Whats the deal with Catholics?

[royalscot]

Roman Catholics are to be afforded the same courtesy as any sinner. They need Christ according to the bible just as much as any heathen. Roman Catholics are very religious and they hide behind their religion.

A clear presentation of the gospel will cut through the smoke of self deception will bring them face to face with Gods truth. Roman Catholics are already guilt laden they simply need to see the promised freedom from sin in Christ. Gods word is able to bring them to a saving knowledge of Christ. The arm of Jehovah is not shortened that He cannot save.

Religion will not save anyone. No church will save anyone. Only the grace of God will save and when so saved one will know they are saved and no longer carry the fear and guilt that self religion gives. Exchange doubt for hope and rejoice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

so is,ever human on the planet , brother, the weeds and the harvest will grow together. the sorry point is, who appointed us to define, what a weed is or a wheat steam. etc love your enemy etc lol

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Which denomination teaches exact truth? I would say they all fail, this is why when I am asked my denomination I always reply with "The Bible". The Bible is the only exact truth, all other teachings have corrupted with time because they are man-made and man is imperfect.

Hi MPW,

I'm glad you are not angry...and I'm gonna risk a quick reply to you even though you say it is "mad" as in "crazy"!

Monnkai started this thread with it's title. I'm not sure I've heard back from that person. So I've just been trying to offer a Catholic veiwpoint on a few things.

As far as your statement above, we would say Jesus' Church cannot fail in teaching Truth. Precisely because it is HIS Church and Jesus can't fail to protect it. He said "I will build MY Church" in Matt. 16. He also said He would always be with it, and that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it into all Truth, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it, and that He would be with it always until the end of the age. So we would look at it as trusting Jesus to protect His Church from teaching error and leading people astray.

I agree that the Bible is authoritative and contains the Truth. The problem isn't who believes that and who doesn't. All Christians believe that.

The problem is that the Bible has to be interpreted. Whose interpretation is the right one is the issue. Many interpretations flat-out contradict each other. (infant baptism, once-saved-always- saved, etc.)

With Catholicism they have deviated away from the Bible more than most - it's all about religion and doctrine

,

Obviously, as a Catholic I've got to disagree with you here (surprise, surprise)

I will say that everyone has doctrine. The definition I use is that doctrine is a belief based on an interpretation of what the Scriptures say.

The Bible can be and constantly is interpreted in different ways - so many different translations do not help and man generally manipulates it into the way he wants it to read. How many of us non-Catholics argue among ourselves in the BDF?! I believe that if we are to help those we believe are unsaved we simply encourage them to not only read but to study their Bible's, preferably in a group scenario where you get many views you can pool together and discuss.

I agree! And I find that I can learn more when discussing the Bible with people who have different viewpoints about it than I do. When talking with people who agree, there's just so much agreement. Still learning, but lots of agreement.

Just a side note: A bible teacher I once knew, and a convert to Catholicism, said that even though we don't usually realize it, Catholics and most non-Catholics actually agree on about 95% of our beliefs once we really sit down and look at it. There are differences and they matter, but the vast majority of stuff we agree on.

Having said all this I feel very uneasy with the rosary beads, "hail Mary" and all the other stuff that is not Biblical.

I understand.

God bless.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Mary cannot hear our prayers.

I think if you are honest, you'd have to admit that you really do not know that.

Why you ask? Because Mary is not Omnipresent. Only God is Omnipresent. Also Mary cannot answer your Prayer because Mary is not Omniscience. Only God is Omniscience.To claim Mary can hear your prayers and answer your prayer is claiming Mary is equal to God.

The "omni's" are not required for those in Heaven to hear us. All we need is for God to allow that to happen. There is evidence in Scripture that those in Heaven do hear us and know what is happening on earth. Angels can do that, too...they don't need the "omni's" either. There is no divinity required except for God's for that to happen. Nobody claims Mary is a goddess.

There are billions of Catholics in the World and if Mary can hear our prayers then she can only hear those next to her. Which means in your lifetime there is a 99.99999999999999% chance Mary will never hear your Prayer.

You don't really know that.

So tell me why do you see nothing wrong with making Mary equal to God?

(Sigh)...nobody makes Mary equal to God.

Like i said before you Catholics have been deceived by Satan into Worshiping Mary as a god.

Like I said before as well, nobody worships Mary as a goddess.

You can spin it all you want, but God cannot allow those in Heaven who Worship Mary as their god.

I'm just trying to be honest. I'm not "spinning" anything. And Mary is not worshipped as a goddess. She is honored as the Mother of the King and we ask her, due to her special relationship with her Son, to pray for us. Just one Christian asking another to pray for them.

Do you really want to spend Eternity away from God, trapped in a place with Satan who will be pissed off?

Of course not. Hell is one doctrine that I think I'd really be ok with if it wasn't true. But it is.

Where in the Scriptures in it entirety is the Hail Mary Prayer? I do know for a fact the Hail Mary Prayer is composed of words pulled out of the Scriptures and strung together to make up the Hail Mary Prayer.

You are correct. The entire first half of the prayer quotes Scripture. The second half is just good theology:

"Holy Mary" (because of who her Son is)
"Mother of God" (because her Son is God)
"pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death" (one Christian asking another to pray for them.)

I don't have evidence (I'd have to look it up) but I have heard that there are some Protestants that actually pray the Rosary once they understand what it is.

Whereas the Lord's prayer is a continuous line of verses found in the Scriptures as a whole!

Yes. And we pray the Lord's prayer all of the time.

Are you against prayers that are not found in the Scriptures as a whole or something?

If that's true, you probably do not recommend anyone praying the "Sinner's Prayer", right? I mean, I don't think that can be found in its entirety in Scripture anywhere, can it?

Reject Mary!

I will not reject her. I will not worship her. I will honor her and call her "blessed". Just as the Holy Spirit had her prophesy in Luke 1:48 : "Henceforth, all generations will call me blessed..."

I will accept her as my spiritual mother as recorded in Revelation 12:17 : "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus."

Now, the "woman" can have multiple meanings...but the most straightforward one in Rev. 12 is that the "woman" is Mary. For she gives birth to a "male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.." That's Jesus. And a dragon fought against them. That's Satan.

Follow God and spend Eternity in Heaven with me.

I am trying to follow God.

God bless.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Mary did say,

Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden:
for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

And from henceforth we see it begins,

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things,
a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice,
and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee,and the paps which thou hast sucked.

But Jesus has final word

Luke 11:28 But he said,
Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

It does show a somewhat obsessed woman making Mary more then she should be there, it seems sort of prophetic of a type of church (IMHO)

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Scriptures teach Scriptures are our Divine Authority in the passages which you edited out while quoting me. Here, I'll give them to you again...

And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
(Mar 7:9)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
(Act 17:11)

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for trainingin righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17)
​

Hey crossnote,

Sorry. I only edit stuff out when I am trying to keep things a little briefer. I haven't edited anything out of the verses you placed above. None of them say what you claim. That the Scriptures are the Divine Authority.

What would you say is the pillar and foundation of the Truth?

​

The Scriptures were codified in the OT long before Rome came along. They were first given to the Jewish prophets and then the Apostles by the Holy Spirit.
​

I'm not totally sure but I don't believe the Jews had a closed canon until after the 1st century. They were open to more revelation from God, I believe.

And the New Testament was codified when?

No Jesus didn't condemn all traditions..only those which conflicted with God's Word, the Scriptures then existent, and that in itself proves God's Word trumps tradition.​

Hmmm. What does the Bible say is the pillar and foundation of the Truth?

Paul was speaking of those teachings derived from Scripture.

You are reading that into the text. He never says that. He just says "hold fast to the traditions....whether by word of mouth or by letter..."

The Thessalonians were commended because they searched the Scriptures to see if what the apostles (and popes if they had existed) were saying was true.

This almost sounds like we do not need the New Testament, then. The Thessalonians didn't have a New Testament.

Jesus continually used the phrase, "It is written" to combat error and correct.

Agreed. Jesus used the Scriptures when combating error. But that isn't the only thing He did. He also gave His own authoritative oral teaching when He said, "You have heard it said....But I say to you."

He also told the disciples to follow oral teaching when He said, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice." (Matt. 23:2-3)

If we did not have the written record as a standard then we would be prey to myriads of false prophets and teachings.
It would be the Dark Ages all over again.

If what you say is true, then can you tell me how in the world the Christian Church survived without a written New Testament?

Also, we HAVE a myriad of false prophets and teachings today BECAUSE of the written word. Everybody thinks they can just pick up a Bible and interpret it for themselves and we basically can have as many Christian denominations as there are individual Christians. That's the fruit of the Reformation. Thousands upon thousands of denominations appear on the scene AFTER 1500 A.D. Not exactly a recipe for unity.
​

[/QUOTE]

God bless.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Why are we concerned with the Catholics? I say ignore then, Heaven will be a better place without them.

Let them worship Mary. Let them deceive each other.

They will never listen to any True Child of God or God.

For the last 1000 years the Catholics have only listened to their Popes, never to what God says. Why do you think God used Martin Luther and others to bring His True Children out of the Catholic Church? God smote the Catholic Church long ago, we need to move on and bring the Gospel of Truth to those who will listen.

Hey Vdp,

Perhaps I am wearing out my welcome here.

Somebody asked about Catholics and I just figured...if we want to know about Catholicism...we should talk to a Catholic.

Just like if we want to know about the Baptist tradition....we should talk to a Baptist.

Or if we want to know about the Mormon religion...we should talk to a Latter-Day Saint., etc.

I think it is a little harsh to say Heaven will be a better place without anybody, though. Scripture says that God desires all men to be saved.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

That's true, Rome has a long history of antisemitism and persecution against believers. Again proving they weren't Christlike.

Yes. Some Catholics have done bad things for sure and not been Christlike. The early Protestants did as well. Lots of groups have throughout time.

Weeds and Wheat. Weeds aren't limited to existing in the Catholic Church.

But you can't judge a group by the Weeds. If that's the case, I would opt for no form of Christianity at all. There is no group that is all Wheat.

But we shouldn't worry about that, Jesus said there would be Weeds and Wheat.

God bless.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

I was just on a forum and Catholosisim came up. I got nothing against people who are catholic but I don't consider them to be Christian either. I here there are quite a few differences between them and a Christian church. My friends Catholic and I'm trying to convince him to convert. But he's in the mindset once a Catholic always a Catholic. Or are the differences minor and nothing to worry about? Most people seem to think so.

My friends Catholic and I'm trying to convince him to convert. Everyone who has surrendered his/her life to God and has the Holy Spirit indwelling is catholic. Catholic simply means "universal". Not everyone who is Christian, however, is Roman Catholic.

It's not uncommon for people to stick with family tradition when it comes to religion. If they're born into a family that is a particular denomination, they stick with it as an adult.

I got nothing against people who are catholic but I don't consider them to be Christian either. People who have surrendered their lives to God and who have the Holy Spirit dwelling within are Christian and part of the catholic(universal) church. While I'm confident every denomination has Christians, I do believe believe the theology of some denominations makes it harder for one's faith to be nurtured...and growth is thus hampered.

Roman Catholicism doesn't teach and and emphasize the "relationship" and "indwelling" of God within the believer very well, so Roman Catholics aren't encouraged nearly as much to have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

Nonetheless, there are Roman Catholics who have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ who are on fire for God.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

Well I won't be-labor this, only to say we have a more SURE Mediator than Mary...So I go to Him...

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1Ti 2:5)

Hey crossnote,

First, my sincere thanks for being willing to discuss things with me. I do appreciate your honesty and thoughts.

Second, ha! I agree with you 1000%! Jesus is for sure a more SURE mediator.

We just see that that doesn't mean we can't also ask other Christians to pray for us. Like if someone asked me to pray for them....I wouldn't say, "No! You just pray directly to Jesus on your own! He is a more sure mediator." Of course we pray for each other... because we are a family.

Peace.

 

[Bestil_Andno]

My friends Catholic and I'm trying to convince him to convert. Everyone who has surrendered his/her life to God and has the Holy Spirit indwelling is catholic. Catholic simply means "universal". Not everyone who is Christian, however, is Roman Catholic.

It's not uncommon for people to stick with family tradition when it comes to religion. If they're born into a family that is a particular denomination, they stick with it as an adult.

I got nothing against people who are catholic but I don't consider them to be Christian either. People who have surrendered their lives to God and who have the Holy Spirit dwelling within are Christian and part of the catholic(universal) church. While I'm confident every denomination has Christians, I do believe believe the theology of some denominations makes it harder for one's faith to be nurtured...and growth is thus hampered.

Roman Catholicism doesn't teach and and emphasize the "relationship" and "indwelling" of God within the believer very well, so Roman Catholics aren't encouraged nearly as much to have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

Nonetheless, there are Roman Catholics who have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ who are on fire for God.

Hi Test.

Nice post. Much truth to it, I think.

My experience in the Church, though, is that it very much emphasizes the "indwelling" of God and relationship with Him. So much so that we believe He actually enters us through the Holy Eucharist and transforms us with His body and blood to become more like Him. Can't get much more intimate than that.

God bless.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

Hi Test.

Nice post. Much truth to it, I think.

My experience in the Church, though, is that it very much emphasizes the "indwelling" of God and relationship with Him. So much so that we believe He actually enters us through the Holy Eucharist and transforms us with His body and blood to become more like Him. Can't get much more intimate than that.

God bless.

I spent just shy of 20 years in the RCC.

My experience was that the RCC did a lousy job of emphasizing the indwelling of God within the believer outside of communion.

My experience was also that communion didn't do squat for me.

My experience post-RC is that I have only heard RC theologians - or any RC, really, for that matter - talk about the need for Christians to have a personal and intimate relationship with God on a daily basis as a part of normal life as they carry on their daily business(in other words, when they are away from mass and the taking of communion) about 2 times over the last 25 years. It came as a shock - but great delight - for me to once hear Rita Rizzo mention the "personal relationship" aspect of Christianity during her long running program.

My hope would be that you're intimacy with Jesus Christ doesn't rest wholly on your communion experience. My life changed when I confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and surrendered my life to Him. My life was transformed, and it wasn't as a result of transubstantiation.

 

[GeneralArminius]

Catholicism is an ism, meaning that those who subscribe to the tenants of what Catholicism is control what it really is at the moment. For example, in true Christianity, a Christian will always be a Christian. A Catholic will not be a Catholic if the Pope says he or she isn't a Catholic. A Catholic should leave the Catholic Church if the Pope is someone like Saint Francis, for example, who says that anyone can get into Heaven as long as their intentions and actions are good. The Foundation of the Catholic Church is or isnt' Christian depending on who you ask, but the real Christian Church is always Christian.

Finally, the point is, the Bible is the source of what a Christian is, not the Pope. If the Pope or Holy See says something and God says something else, you do what God says, no matter what.

An ism being the source of someone's beliefs is wrong. God should be the source of someone's beliefs.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

My hope would be that y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ your intimacy with Jesus Christ doesn't rest wholly on your communion experience. My life changed when I confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and surrendered my life to Him. My life was transformed, and it wasn't as a result of transubstantiation.

There, that's what I meant.

 

[crossnote]

What would you say is the pillar and foundation of the Truth?
​

Hmmm. What does the Bible say is the pillar and foundation of the Truth?

​

God bless.

Forgive me but I work best working one point at a time. This point is always brought up by catholic apologist using the verse...

KJV 1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.(1 Tim. 3:15 KJV)

I guess a person is to succumb and say 'the Church'.
But I will say that it is the SCRIPTURE that establishes that fact, thus the Scriptures are even more foundational.

 

[crossnote]

Hey crossnote,

First, my sincere thanks for being willing to discuss things with me. I do appreciate your honesty and thoughts.

Second, ha! I agree with you 1000%! Jesus is for sure a more SURE mediator.

We just see that that doesn't mean we can't also ask other Christians to pray for us. Like if someone asked me to pray for them....I wouldn't say, "No! You just pray directly to Jesus on your own! He is a more sure mediator." Of course we pray for each other... because we are a family.

Peace.

Yes, but using Mary to get to Jesus is a little strange you got to admit.

 

[garee]

We do not wrestles against flesh and blood (a foundation of Catholicism) as if we did war after the flesh or do we wrestle with denomination against denomination .We wrestles against things not seen (eternal) spirits and principalities in High places .

High places do not get any higher than the church. This is where judgment begins. We are to concern ourselves with things that are of faith not the the things of the flesh or things of men . The scriptures do not teach us to seek after the departed in worship. That is a Catholic tradition to walk after that seen, the flesh by which they stand out from the rest of Christianity.

The faith we hear God by and through in whom we cannot see, is His faith and not that of any disembodied worker with a familiar spirit in a hope it is an entity that has departed from this world...We hear God through His word not through a legion of disembodied worker with a familiar spirit . Our Father in heaven is the only disembodied Spirit that can commune with the believer through the Spirit of Christ .

Clearly there are no other spirits by which we commune with that not seen . The spirits in respect to what the Catholics call patron saints must be lying or unclean spirits also called the legion because there are many. The many come up as one as and is why a face in respect to Catholic medallion must be available when seeking after one.(3500 to choose from and rising)

The Mary (not the sleeping Mary the Bible speaks of) some worship as a disembodied worker with a familiar spirit that they are required to serve as an "patron saints" . They are appointed by the Pope who serves as an alternate Holy Spirit (one seen) at the saint factory in Rome. It is a theme foreign to the scriptures. Scripture warns us but the Catholic will not hearken unto the authority of the word of God.This is seeing that believe the fathers in a succession of men form one generation to the next are alone the final authority in matters of faith (the unseen)

God calls patron saints, (the workers with a familiar spirit ) an abomination . And by His Holy Spirit He moved Josiah from heaven who had found the book of the law, the pearl of great price, which alone is the true final authority in matters of faith. And by the authority of the living abiding word of God with no daysman or what that Catholics call a Pope needed to do what they call infallibly interpret. This is clearly what God was moving Josiah to do.

2Ki 23:24 Moreover the “workers with familiar spirits”, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, “that he might perform” the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

The passage in Isaiah below is directly in respect to the same non biblical faith that men have in respect to disembodied worker with familiar spirits that the Catholics must call patron saints just as the true Christian know they must be born again.

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:19

The word Seek is used twice in the above passage. Once in represent to our Father in heaven .The other in respect to un clean(legion) of spirits inspired from earth)

Again, one to represent the unseen Holy Spirit we must seek after, and the other the abomination in respect to the “legion” as workers with familiar spirits, the unclean spirits that the Catholics must seek after..Again as that in which the Catholics must call patron saints or they lose their queen of heaven and Catholicism falters and dies..

Strongs lexicon....01875 darash {daw-rash'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 455; vAV - seek 84, enquire 43, require 12, search 7, misc 18; 164
1) to resort to, seek, seek with care, enquire, require 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to resort to, frequent (a place), (tread a place) 1a2) to consult, enquire of, seek 1a2a) of God 1a2b) of heathen gods, necromancers 1a3) to seek deity in prayer and worship 1a3a) God 1a3b) heathen deities 1a4) to seek (with a demand), demand, require 1a5) to investigate, enquire 1a6) to ask for, require, demand 1a7) to practice, study, follow, seek with application 1a8) to seek with care, care for 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to allow oneself to be enquired of, consulted (only of God) 1b2) to be sought, be sought out 1b3) to be required (of blood)

 

[garee]

Hey crossnote,

First, my sincere thanks for being willing to discuss things with me. I do appreciate your honesty and thoughts.

Second, ha! I agree with you 1000%! Jesus is for sure a more SURE mediator.

We just see that that doesn't mean we can't also ask other Christians to pray for us. Like if someone asked me to pray for them....I wouldn't say, "No! You just pray directly to Jesus on your own! He is a more sure mediator." Of course we pray for each other... because we are a family.

Peace.

Is Jesus for sure a more SURE mediator than the Pope and the fathers? Or according to Catholic traditon of the fathers as a law not subject to change we do need men to teach us????

 

[MadParrotWoman]

We should not need any mediator as a go-between God and ourselves for when Jesus died on the cross the temple curtain was torn in two therefore giving us direct access to God Himself - no need to go through anyone else including Mary. I do not understand why Catholics revere Mary the way they do, Mary should be respected as Mother of The King of course but even Jesus Himself appeared not to revere her in the way Catholics do. Read Matt 12:48.

 

[garee]

We should not need any mediator as a go-between God and ourselves for when Jesus died on the cross the temple curtain was torn in two therefore giving us direct access to God Himself - no need to go through anyone else including Mary. I do not understand why Catholics revere Mary the way they do, Mary should be respected as Mother of The King of course but even Jesus Himself appeared not to revere her in the way Catholics do. Read Matt 12:48.

Yes she was used to give the Son of man the temporal flesh for a one demonstration of that not seen, the spiritual work of God(not seen) that he works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed rigorousness.And not that of our own selves. ,lest any man boast in false pride..His flesh at birth is considered as sinful seeing it was corrupted like all flesh and blood shown by the fact it did age in a process of decaying, leading to death and destruction .Where flesh and blood return to.. the lifeless spiritless dust is was taken from to begin with.

Mary like any saint(God is no respecter of persons) makes up one the many lively stones that makes up the spiritual house of God. as His eternal bride. She is not the whole church. Many members, one Bride,

Yes even before the ceremonial fleshly ordinance using a curtain, as that seen the temporal that was used as a shadow of that not seen, to show the separation of the kingdom of this world and the kingdom of God, unseen eternal. The first century reformation has come.

There is and never was a "daysman" (infallible mediator) as that the Catholic must call a Pope an outward figure to place one’s faith in.

That kind of ideology usurps the unseen authority of our Holy Father in heaven and is why according to the law of God we are to call no man father on earth.

Even Christ, as the s Son of man refused that kind of tittle. He said only God is good. This I believe helps us to recognize we do not know in a personal way God, after any outward form.

It’s that kind of methodology that usurped God’s authority in the garden and is the same principle by which the god of this world gets his foot in the door of the church even today.

God is simply not a man as us (creation as us) But is an eternal supernatural Spirit (with supernatural as in no nature, as in no beginning, or Genesis. He remains without father or mother beginning of day or end of Spirit life. I think the word daysman describes the Pope to a T.

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his( the Pope) hand upon us both.Job 9:32

Easton Bible dictionary.... Daysmanan umpire or arbiter or judge (Job 9:33). This word is formed
from the Latin diem dicere, i.e., to fix a day for hearing acause. Such an one is empowered by mutual consent to decide thecause, and to "lay his hand", i.e., to impose his authority, on both, and enforce his sentence.

It the unseen Holy Spirit that lays His hand (will ) in respect to Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God to impose his authority , and enforce his sentence.

Not the Pope placing his authority as that seen on both , God and us. Therefore turning things upside down as if the Potter who forms Christ in us by a work of His faith as if had no understanding of His own to offer us from heaven.

 

[PaulMack]

In Revelation 12:17 the Woman is NOT Mary. The Woman is the nation of Israel.

The Catholics have replaced every woman in the Scriptures with Mary. This is false Theology.

The Catholics basically has rewritten the Scriptures, tossing out the Nation of Israel and replacing her with their corrupted Mary.

Luke 11:27,28
[SUP]27 [/SUP]While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

In this passage Jesus is telling the people its not Mary that is blessed, that its the True Christians who are blessed.

By not observing the Word of God the Catholics are not blessed by God like us True Christians are.

Most Catholics believe since they have been born into the Catholic Church and have been Baptized as babies that they therefore have received Salvation and do not need to repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Repent Bestil_Andno, reject Mary, accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior before its to late.