Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

[PeterJens]

Jesus says turn the other cheek, NOT slap them back.

I am stupid in this regard. I got involved with various members who would pick on a member, find some personal sensitive subject and push them till they blew up. I would point it out when I saw it.

I became a victim of this as a result. It is true I do fight fire with fire. It does create fireworks sometimes, but equally the points are true. Sometimes the discussions are 1 person being attacked by 3 or 4 others, with the points just being you upset me, that was an insult, you slandered me, that was a lie, but no content. When I see this it is just because they dislike the position being taken and wish to distract the conversation. But I need to learn more patience and simple words.
Thank you for your encouragement. It is why we need to be a body not just participants.

On the point of hypocracy. If I am making a valid criticsm of a position or stand, how is this hypocritical?
I am interested in particular thought processes and ideas, and it is obvious some regard this as a spiritual warfare rather than exploration. It gets like the church censoring books. One member started a thread christian porn. What they meant is you should never participate in conversations that did not respect "authorities" appropriately. This is just another thought police propoganda approach, and not part of how God works. Me saying this will be interpreted as evil also, lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am stupid in this regard. I got involved with various members who would pick on a member, find some personal sensitive subject and push them till they blew up. I would point it out when I saw it.

I became a victim of this as a result. It is true I do fight fire with fire. It does create fireworks sometimes, but equally the points are true. Sometimes the discussions are 1 person being attacked by 3 or 4 others, with the points just being you upset me, that was an insult, you slandered me, that was a lie, but no content. When I see this it is just because they dislike the position being taken and wish to distract the conversation. But I need to learn more patience and simple words.
Thank you for your encouragement. It is why we need to be a body not just participants.

On the point of hypocracy. If I am making a valid criticsm of a position or stand, how is this hypocritical?
I am interested in particular thought processes and ideas, and it is obvious some regard this as a spiritual warfare rather than exploration. It gets like the church censoring books. One member started a thread christian porn. What they meant is you should never participate in conversations that did not respect "authorities" appropriately. This is just another thought police propoganda approach, and not part of how God works. Me saying this will be interpreted as evil also, lol.

Peter you have been told 100 time, or is ot more?

the issue is not you taking a stand for your belief system, Or even questioning someone elses belief Thats what happens in a discussion forum, It is what we were attemptig to do earlier, and it was going great until you started to do what you always do.

It is your continue insistence that you know what everyone believes, and calling them out, judging them, or accusing them of that believe when the person or group you are calling out believe NOTHING close to what you are judging them on.

when you do that, DISCUSSION CRASHED, because from that point on, all type of discussion is now based on false precepts, false ideas, and false assumptions and not on basic truths of what both parties are trying to discuss.. (whether you agree wiht them or not does not matter)

I disagree with alot of people in here, It does not make me hate them. nor hate you. Nor do I hate you, I just want you to stop the nonsense so we can have a logical discussion, If that is impossible, then thats sad,

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It's probably a good thing...the wolves have started to assemble again....and if you disagree with them....you are going to get bitten....it's the nature of the beast...( it's part of the original sin inherited by Adam as the Op talks about )

Please stop calling your brothers and sisters wolves.
To be having struggles against our flesh and pride and to be learning how to forgive and to follow Jesus and how to learn where our leaven might be - these things do not make our brothers wolves. They make them just the same as us.

 

[Ariel82]

You have to keep another part in view when you say," we never obey and just do."
You have to juggle another ball at the same time.
If you don't do this, the result is a blind pride.
The other ball is that the words are spirit because God is Spirit.

I have never killed a person. I find that it is the easiest commandment to follow! I have always obeyed it since youth! I can say, I have at least obeyed that commandment perfectly! What is wrong with me saying I have obeyed that commandment perfectly? I have found obeying God in it to be very, very easy! I would guess about...98% of us find it to be easy. There are relatively few who are disobedient to this particular commandment.

Do you see what the result of not having that other ball to juggle with the rest leads to?

If you get angry at someone for no reason then you have murdered the love you should have had in your heart for them and have sinned, it's just not full grown sin unto death.

I quoted a verse earlier in this thread that says desire leads to,sin and full grown sin leads to death.

The Holy Spirit through His grace and mercy gives us wisdom and convicts when our desires starts to lead us towards sin before it can kill us,

Like a mother would catch up her child who wants to play with the fire cuz it's pretty.

 

[Ariel82]

Peter you have been told 100 time, or is ot more?

the issue is not you taking a stand for your belief system, Or even questioning someone elses belief Thats what happens in a discussion forum, It is what we were attemptig to do earlier, and it was going great until you started to do what you always do.

It is your continue insistence that you know what everyone believes, and calling them out, judging them, or accusing them of that believe when the person or group you are calling out believe NOTHING close to what you are judging them on.

when you do that, DISCUSSION CRASHED, because from that point on, all type of discussion is now based on false precepts, false ideas, and false assumptions and not on basic truths of what both parties are trying to discuss.. (whether you agree wiht them or not does not matter)

I disagree with alot of people in here, It does not make me hate them. nor hate you. Nor do I hate you, I just want you to stop the nonsense so we can have a logical discussion, If that is impossible, then thats sad,

Or you could just stop talking to him...my personal recommendation to you.

 

[PeterJens]

I understand and I agree.
Except for the very last part. You have no reason to be defensive. No one owes you honor. All owe only God honor. The tyrant in us wants to demand respect and wants to fight for his right to it. Our Lord wants to set us free from this tyrant in ourselves. You do not need to defend yourself. You can pput it in His hands to do so and trust Him. You can just forgive.

There is a real sense of forgiveness, but certain positions and discussions rely on trust. To get a point across you need consensus of opinion, so the group gains a group understanding. If the parties are split this is more difficult.

That is why I use the term defensive. I need to question other meanings to a contribution, because I know the intention is otherwise than it appears.

For instance certain contributors here want to stop this discussion on purpose, because they can see we are coming to conclusions they would call evil. It is no coincidence a picture of wolves is introduced. Not as if this is neutral and friendly.

It is why I find these strategies so transparent and irrelevant. You cannot stop open discussion on an open forum with good grace flowing, so Hallelujah, the Lord reigns.

 

[Ariel82]

Quoted from PeterJens"
On the point of hypocracy. If I am making a valid criticsm of a position or stand, how is this hypocritical?"


What???? Wasn't talking to you so why is my words to apply it to yourself?

If you preach folks should focus on grace and Christ righteousness, but go around pointing out others sins and shortcomings, then something is wrong.

It's like saying it's okay to be single and then introducing then the next minute to another single person they might want to marry.

 

[Ariel82]

Your criticisms aren't valid because the position or stance you are beating up is just a straw man of your own making...sometimes you make it "fun" by labeling the strawman "this is what EG thinks".

 

[Grace777x70]

Please stop calling your brothers and sisters wolves.
To be having struggles against our flesh and pride and to be learning how to forgive and to follow Jesus and how to learn where our leaven might be - these things do not make our brothers wolves. They make them just the same as us.

I understand your sentiment here. This is no a simple struggle of the flesh here or the inability and original sin.

If the same people keep biting at fellow believers continuously ....they are acting like wolves and are to be shunned and we are admonished to avoid them.......now if they repent - then by all means welcome them with open arms!


Romans 16:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Titus 3:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

 

[Ariel82]

There is a real sense of forgiveness, but certain positions and discussions rely on trust. To get a point across you need consensus of opinion, so the group gains a group understanding. If the parties are split this is more difficult.

That is why I use the term defensive. I need to question other meanings to a contribution, because I know the intention is otherwise than it appears.

For instance certain contributors here want to stop this discussion on purpose, because they can see we are coming to conclusions they would call evil. It is no coincidence a picture of wolves is introduced. Not as if this is neutral and friendly.

It is why I find these strategies so transparent and irrelevant. You cannot stop open discussion on an open forum with good grace flowing, so Hallelujah, the Lord reigns.

Stop seeing people as enemy and look beyond if you truly want to learn about spiritual warfare.

You will have to pray more too and over what you post so that you aren't just repeating the lies whispered by demons but countering those lies with gospel truth.

And STOP making strawmen and labeling them "what so and so believes."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If you get angry at someone for no reason then you have murdered the love you should have had in your heart for them and have sinned, it's just not full grown sin unto death.

I quoted a verse earlier in this thread that says desire leads to,sin and full grown sin leads to death.

The Holy Spirit through His grace and mercy gives us wisdom and convicts when our desires starts to lead us towards sin before it can kill us,

Like a mother would catch up her child who wants to play with the fire cuz it's pretty.

My eyes zip immediately to the "angry for no reason" part of this.That's the part that my mind hones in on and wants to think about.

If I am to forgive 70x7, doesn't this necessarily mean they gave me a reason? Where no one has given me reason to NEED to forgive, no forgiveness is necessary.

I don't agree that the "for no reason" part is really part of it. Whether I am mistaken about their intentions and am getting offended for no reason or whether they have in fact sinned against me, isn't the real issue the anger in my heart at them instead of love and forgiveness?

I don't know if that came out making sense ariel...

 

[Vdp]

1 Peter 4:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

Enough said!

 

[Stephen63]

[QUOTE=PeterJens;2659633]Total inability is a belief that who we are means we are sinners to the day we die.
We can never walk righteously or be acceptable to God, only if God looks at us through Christs righteousness.[/QUOTE]

Not total inability, but partial.

Romans 7:14-25 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

ALL PRESENT TENSE, all currently happening as he writes. Because of our carnal, corrupt flesh, we are never in total ability to perform God's will. But our inner man has the heart to do it.
Romans 7:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[HR][/HR]2 Corinthians 4:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.


The Lord searches & knows the inward man, for it is the heart of man that matters to Him

Psalm 44:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.
[HR][/HR]Psalm 139:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
[HR][/HR]Jeremiah 17:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
[HR][/HR]Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[Ariel82]

My eyes zip immediately to the "angry for no reason" part of this.That's the part that my mind hones in on and wants to think about.

If I am to forgive 70x7, doesn't this necessarily mean they gave me a reason? Where no one has given me reason to NEED to forgive, no forgiveness is necessary.

I don't agree that the "for no reason" part is really part of it. Whether I am mistaken about their intentions and am getting offended for no reason or whether they have in fact sinned against me, isn't the real issue the anger in my heart at them instead of love and forgiveness?

I don't know if that came out making sense ariel...

It is not a sin to be angry at someone if they have you a reason...ex. They raped,your,daughter.

However God still require you forgive them and let Him handle vengeance before the sun is allowed to set on your anger.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Or you could just stop talking to him...my personal recommendation to you.

This is a bible discussion forum..

People should be free to come in and discuss the word, and if they see something they disagree with, should be free to discuss the word, and show another point of view.

I should not, nor should anyone else. be shunned from being able to share our views, or share to anyone we disagree wiht their opinion, and this is why, (stating our reasoning)

We should be able to do it without getting attacked, Hated on, Lied about, and falsely accused.

If people do not like this, and are offended from this, Then maybe they should not be here. (as I have told you, this is not something new, this has been going on for months now. It gets old) not just with peter. but another one of his friends..

If you think this is some new things which has just started happening, Think again.

if your not willing to DISCUSS the bible and different viewpoints,, Then you do not belong in a bible DISCUSSION forum, period.

That is my problem, and has been since the begining.

 

[Ariel82]

I understand your sentiment here. This is no a simple struggle of the flesh here or the inability and original sin.

If the same people keep biting at fellow believers continuously ....they are acting like wolves and are to be shunned and we are admonished to avoid them.......now if they repent - then by all means welcome them with open arms!


Romans 16:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Titus 3:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

Now would,be a good time to follow your own advice if this is truly what you believe. God is the ultimate judge but if you can't view someone as a brother or sister then more harm than good will continue by talking to them.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There is a real sense of forgiveness, but certain positions and discussions rely on trust. To get a point across you need consensus of opinion, so the group gains a group understanding. If the parties are split this is more difficult.

That is why I use the term defensive. I need to question other meanings to a contribution, because I know the intention is otherwise than it appears.

For instance certain contributors here want to stop this discussion on purpose, because they can see we are coming to conclusions they would call evil. It is no coincidence a picture of wolves is introduced. Not as if this is neutral and friendly.

It is why I find these strategies so transparent and irrelevant. You cannot stop open discussion on an open forum with good grace flowing, so Hallelujah, the Lord reigns.

If the two of you knew the great blessing you would receive for being the first one to bend in humility to your brother and say, I am sorry. I will try to be more gentle with my words, and I am sorry I have hurt your feelings, you would both be trying to outrun the other to be first. Put your feelings and desires last and put your brother first. It doesn't even matter if he is wrong. Wash his feet. YOU bless HIM. YOU forgive HIM.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My eyes zip immediately to the "angry for no reason" part of this.That's the part that my mind hones in on and wants to think about.

If I am to forgive 70x7, doesn't this necessarily mean they gave me a reason? Where no one has given me reason to NEED to forgive, no forgiveness is necessary.

I don't agree that the "for no reason" part is really part of it. Whether I am mistaken about their intentions and am getting offended for no reason or whether they have in fact sinned against me, isn't the real issue the anger in my heart at them instead of love and forgiveness?

I don't know if that came out making sense ariel...

forgiving person, and allow them to continue in sin are two different things.

God calls us to confront people in willingly open sin, at least to see their own sin.

Forgiveness is always granted, I tried to start fresh this morning, but as usual, it does not matter, they revert to the same old sin.

 

[PeterJens]

If you get angry at someone for no reason then you have murdered the love you should have had in your heart for them and have sinned, it's just not full grown sin unto death.

I quoted a verse earlier in this thread that says desire leads to,sin and full grown sin leads to death.

The Holy Spirit through His grace and mercy gives us wisdom and convicts when our desires starts to lead us towards sin before it can kill us,

Like a mother would catch up her child who wants to play with the fire cuz it's pretty.

Murder and anger are two very interesting issues.
Jesus says if you are angry with a fellow believer, you will be subject to judgement. I read this a rebuke or punishment.
If you talk to them with contempt, you should be taken to court. A spiritual debate over what action will be taken
If you say "you fool" to a believer, you have lost your salvation.

Notice it is about anger unjustified is wrong. Murder is obviously wrong but the sliding scale is action or showing anger without due provocation is on the same road.

So it is not saying emotional anger is wrong, it needs to be tempered and put in context.
Now some would say any anger is a sin as a result, but this is not what Jesus is saying. He is pointing out what leads to murder and only saying "you fool" to a fellow believer is equivalent to it.

Now if you were a hyper-legalist, anger towards anyone is now murder, so you are constantly sinning worthy of going to hell everytime you get angry with anyone. Not surprisingly if this is the real standard of the Lord righteousness would be impossible.

But as I said this is not the case.

Now psychologists have discovered some families repress anger, so much, that just a little anger comes out as, I want to rip you head off and stab you until your blood stops flowing. This is not actually about murder, but what happens if you never allow people to be angry at all.

Some think this is actually walking with Jesus so not surprisingly people who have an emotional life like this will never feel righteous because of the junk going along in their heads but not in actual life. It is also why talking about such issues is so important, because things can change, the Lord did not make us to live in these emotional prisons.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If the two of you knew the great blessing you would receive for being the first one to bend in humility to your brother and say, I am sorry. I will try to be more gentle with my words, and I am sorry I have hurt your feelings, you would both be trying to outrun the other to be first. Put your feelings and desires last and put your brother first. It doesn't even matter if he is wrong. Wash his feet. YOU bless HIM. YOU forgive HIM.

I think I did this this morning, But talking nicely, trying to have a normal conversation, Trying to understand where peter was coming from, and responding to his posts by just a different view, not an attack on his character.

By asking his forgiveness when he said I misunderstood him.

And I innocent? No. (I never claimed I was)

but I am not the one who started to judge again, and bear false witness again, and use these sins to slam and attack other people..