Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam
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Ariel, I've been studying this issue. I'm not a dummy. If you are going to constantly imply that I don't know what I'm talking about, or don't have the intelligence to understand what people are saying, then you and I can have no meaningful discussion. What that person said in that link that I provided is what I have read other people say as well. In fact, if you really want to know the truth, then you will find it said in many places on the Internet.
And furthermore, if you are not going to even read the evidence that you asked me for, then please stop trying to act like a moralizing agent towards me. Thank you and be blessed.
And furthermore, if you are not going to even read the evidence that you asked me for, then please stop trying to act like a moralizing agent towards me. Thank you and be blessed.
To readers, A few days ago I asked EG to tell me openly what crime I had commited against him.
It was how you interpret walking in righteousness. He said no-one could walk in righteousness in Gods law, the hyper legalist version, and I said you could in the apostles version. Now this was just what had been said, so it was neither a slander or a lie.
So I gave up trying to talk about this, because I have no sin to repent of, only offence people take but cannot express and I do not know what it actually is. To me it becomes just a slander against me, which I should get upset about, but Jesus says I should not, so I do not.
I am not defending myself , I am just repeating again, the actual situation and not this imagined mentally ill version.
I do know mental illness, and turning something into a serious problem is a classic sign of it. So now you know where I stand.
I apologize that I cannot repent of something I have not done, or sins that do not exist, but that is the reality.
If a christian wants to go further than this, they have some unusual problems that I am not qualified to deal with.
It was how you interpret walking in righteousness. He said no-one could walk in righteousness in Gods law, the hyper legalist version, and I said you could in the apostles version. Now this was just what had been said, so it was neither a slander or a lie.
So I gave up trying to talk about this, because I have no sin to repent of, only offence people take but cannot express and I do not know what it actually is. To me it becomes just a slander against me, which I should get upset about, but Jesus says I should not, so I do not.
I am not defending myself , I am just repeating again, the actual situation and not this imagined mentally ill version.
I do know mental illness, and turning something into a serious problem is a classic sign of it. So now you know where I stand.
I apologize that I cannot repent of something I have not done, or sins that do not exist, but that is the reality.
If a christian wants to go further than this, they have some unusual problems that I am not qualified to deal with.
A
Hey sorry I have a life, I will read it when I get a chance...it's kind of buried in between the bits where folks call each other names and call for folks to be banned...I am sure eventually I will be able to dig it out.
Side note..i,think you are very intelligent and you know the "issues"... You are just ignorant of people and their hearts cuz you hear things people never said.
Example..never called you names or said you were a 5 year old..yet why do you hear it when you read my,words...
Prayers might help you more than more articles proving how right You are.
Side note..i,think you are very intelligent and you know the "issues"... You are just ignorant of people and their hearts cuz you hear things people never said.
Example..never called you names or said you were a 5 year old..yet why do you hear it when you read my,words...
Prayers might help you more than more articles proving how right You are.
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I couldn't take a break. I wanted to just be here with you guys! So I made a pot of coffee and came back. 
I know some will think that this is evil and is a plea for "sinless perfection." But I lean towards what you are getting at here Peter, but I also lean with ariel when she said, I don't think first place is the goal - not being disqualified is the goal.
Here is why I lean toward what both of you said.
We know that if we abide in Him, we do not sin.
Not: if we abide in Him, we are completely hoyl, will ever remain completely holy and will never slip and will never sin again.
So...if I abide in Him, I do not sin, then the most important thing to me is to keep abiding. Because while I am abiding, I am not sinning.
But I have seen these conversations go very badly. I even saw someone get furious and say:NO!!!If I abide in Him I WILL still sin!
That is the exact opposite of what God has said: If we abide in Him, we do not sin.
I think sometimes people have a hard time understanding that this does NOT mean we believe we will never sin again - just that if we, or anyone, could abide continuously, they would not sin.
Can I abide continuously? Well, that IS the race set before us, isn't it? And like ariel, I'm not so concerned about 1st place. I just want to run my race with joy and try to run it well. I just want to try to attain to that for which I have been apprehended.
I might define in my own words, what I think "Abide" means. To me it means to trust and rely on Him so much that I look to Him for everything - my saving, my keeping, my defending, my growth in virtue, my EVERYTHING - and to distrust myself equally as much.
I have not found it to be easy. So much in me wants to continually rise up and try to "help Him." I think that a lot of the time this comes from impatience because He seems to be moving slow to me. And I think that when I try to help Him, at that moment, I have stopped abiding.
I know some will think that this is evil and is a plea for "sinless perfection." But I lean towards what you are getting at here Peter, but I also lean with ariel when she said, I don't think first place is the goal - not being disqualified is the goal.
Here is why I lean toward what both of you said.
We know that if we abide in Him, we do not sin.
Not: if we abide in Him, we are completely hoyl, will ever remain completely holy and will never slip and will never sin again.
So...if I abide in Him, I do not sin, then the most important thing to me is to keep abiding. Because while I am abiding, I am not sinning.
But I have seen these conversations go very badly. I even saw someone get furious and say:NO!!!If I abide in Him I WILL still sin!
That is the exact opposite of what God has said: If we abide in Him, we do not sin.
I think sometimes people have a hard time understanding that this does NOT mean we believe we will never sin again - just that if we, or anyone, could abide continuously, they would not sin.
Can I abide continuously? Well, that IS the race set before us, isn't it? And like ariel, I'm not so concerned about 1st place. I just want to run my race with joy and try to run it well. I just want to try to attain to that for which I have been apprehended.
I might define in my own words, what I think "Abide" means. To me it means to trust and rely on Him so much that I look to Him for everything - my saving, my keeping, my defending, my growth in virtue, my EVERYTHING - and to distrust myself equally as much.
I have not found it to be easy. So much in me wants to continually rise up and try to "help Him." I think that a lot of the time this comes from impatience because He seems to be moving slow to me. And I think that when I try to help Him, at that moment, I have stopped abiding.
E
see Peter, You can not even be honest..
You slammed me and said the hyper legalist version. Which I never claimed, not even infered,
Thats your attack, and your false claim and already shows we can not discuss anything, because YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE.. and you were WRONG
And that was not the only argument, or only false claim. I showed many others.. (ie I believe everyone who preaches obedience are legalists)
the list goes on and on..
I ask you once again, with all sincerity, If your not going to try to understand another persons view. But always attack and slander them by saying they believe things they do nto even believe.
Why are you here?
You think your going to get away with doing these things? Every time you lie about what someone else says, I am going to show the room, until you humble yourself and repent.
I am not even asking (like Ariel did) for you to repent of calling me mentally ill.. that does nto bother me,
I just want you to admit you are falsly accusing people of beliefs they do not have, and thus judging them falsly. Not for my own good, but for your own good.
You slammed me and said the hyper legalist version. Which I never claimed, not even infered,
Thats your attack, and your false claim and already shows we can not discuss anything, because YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE.. and you were WRONG
And that was not the only argument, or only false claim. I showed many others.. (ie I believe everyone who preaches obedience are legalists)
the list goes on and on..
I ask you once again, with all sincerity, If your not going to try to understand another persons view. But always attack and slander them by saying they believe things they do nto even believe.
Why are you here?
You think your going to get away with doing these things? Every time you lie about what someone else says, I am going to show the room, until you humble yourself and repent.
I am not even asking (like Ariel did) for you to repent of calling me mentally ill.. that does nto bother me,
I just want you to admit you are falsly accusing people of beliefs they do not have, and thus judging them falsly. Not for my own good, but for your own good.
Ariel - If I was in a office situation with someone like this, I would get help for him.
I have done zip. You have read the stuff here. It is all so blown up and out of proportion.
For me it is the only thing that makes sense. By the way I have mental illness in my family,
and I am not ashamed. It is a disease like any other, and I love the individual through it,
though it takes a deep personal emotional cost. For some it breaks them so I know what
I am saying, this is not meant as an insult at all, seriously.
I have done zip. You have read the stuff here. It is all so blown up and out of proportion.
For me it is the only thing that makes sense. By the way I have mental illness in my family,
and I am not ashamed. It is a disease like any other, and I love the individual through it,
though it takes a deep personal emotional cost. For some it breaks them so I know what
I am saying, this is not meant as an insult at all, seriously.
Sorry EG. Get a grip. This is just not worth talking about. You can say whatever you like about
how I believe, what I believe, how it comes across. If it helps you amen, if not fine.
I use language because it labels things. Now I am happy to say this label was wrong, or that
idea does not make sense. All I am saying is this is how it comes across to me, it is my label.
Labels like this do not devalue you. Hyper-legalism might be true.
Do you know how many times you have written we water down the law, and are hypocrites?
Hundreds. But now it is a great offence. This is what I mean about not being sensible.
You know where I stand. I do not hide anything. Maybe you do not like how it makes you look.
Maybe you should not participate and say such judgemental things about others because you
cannot handle blowback.
how I believe, what I believe, how it comes across. If it helps you amen, if not fine.
I use language because it labels things. Now I am happy to say this label was wrong, or that
idea does not make sense. All I am saying is this is how it comes across to me, it is my label.
Labels like this do not devalue you. Hyper-legalism might be true.
Do you know how many times you have written we water down the law, and are hypocrites?
Hundreds. But now it is a great offence. This is what I mean about not being sensible.
You know where I stand. I do not hide anything. Maybe you do not like how it makes you look.
Maybe you should not participate and say such judgemental things about others because you
cannot handle blowback.
E
Sorry Peter
Get a grip..
This is not about how you believe, what you believe, how it (your belief) comes across.
as long as you continue to think that is the issue, you will refuse to see the hart of the matter
Its about your continued slander against other people. and saying they believe things they do not, Or tryign to push them under some silly group so that you refuse to see where they are comming from.
Thats your problem, and HRFTD's. You try to label people, and in doing so Slander them,, because you put them under things they are not..
The second problem is you label them by saying these people believes things they do nto believe, so you can not even get the labels right.. But you refuse to see or acknowledge this is true.
THATS THE ISSUE, not what you believe.
It dooes when what you think a hyper legalist is is not true You have just placed me under YOUR VERSION of what that group is, and not only that, YOU JUST SLANDERED EVERYONE in that group.
That would be like me calling you catholic, Because you preach certain things,, When you are nothing like a catholic..
how could we even begin to discuss our beliefs if I take everything you say from a catholic perspective> We would fail, and I would continue to slander you as something you are not..
it would be one thing if you just did it to me, I can handle it, But you do it to everyone who disagrees with you..
Yep. And in my view, you do.
But I do not say you do this because you are catholic, or protestant, or hyper this or that.
I say it because the law is Gods standard, and you have to water it down to think you can be good enough to EARN SALVATION..
There is a difference, You do not defend yourself by saying you do not water down the law. and this is why,, You attack and say I am just (insert whatever name you have for the day) and the only reason I say it is because I believe anyone who preaches obedience is watering down the law, Or a legalist.
Thats not how you discuss the word.. You do not attack people who disagree with you, You try to understand their position, and then discuss from there..
when you lie about me, or slander me, You should be more worried about your sin, than what I think, I could care less what you think or how you make me look, I care about a man who claims to be from God telling everyone to be obedience, when he is sinning almost every post he makes.
Maybe you should stop talking to anyone, because you can not handle when they tell you plainly, You are misrepresenting what they really believe, and are slandering them with false truths. And when they tell you thi, You get offended and go on a tyrade about how it is all them, and you are doing nothing wrong..
People disagree with me all the time,, It does not bother me at all..
Get a grip..
This is not about how you believe, what you believe, how it (your belief) comes across.
as long as you continue to think that is the issue, you will refuse to see the hart of the matter
Its about your continued slander against other people. and saying they believe things they do not, Or tryign to push them under some silly group so that you refuse to see where they are comming from.
Thats your problem, and HRFTD's. You try to label people, and in doing so Slander them,, because you put them under things they are not..
The second problem is you label them by saying these people believes things they do nto believe, so you can not even get the labels right.. But you refuse to see or acknowledge this is true.
THATS THE ISSUE, not what you believe.
It dooes when what you think a hyper legalist is is not true You have just placed me under YOUR VERSION of what that group is, and not only that, YOU JUST SLANDERED EVERYONE in that group.
That would be like me calling you catholic, Because you preach certain things,, When you are nothing like a catholic..
how could we even begin to discuss our beliefs if I take everything you say from a catholic perspective> We would fail, and I would continue to slander you as something you are not..
it would be one thing if you just did it to me, I can handle it, But you do it to everyone who disagrees with you..
Yep. And in my view, you do.
But I do not say you do this because you are catholic, or protestant, or hyper this or that.
I say it because the law is Gods standard, and you have to water it down to think you can be good enough to EARN SALVATION..
There is a difference, You do not defend yourself by saying you do not water down the law. and this is why,, You attack and say I am just (insert whatever name you have for the day) and the only reason I say it is because I believe anyone who preaches obedience is watering down the law, Or a legalist.
Thats not how you discuss the word.. You do not attack people who disagree with you, You try to understand their position, and then discuss from there..
when you lie about me, or slander me, You should be more worried about your sin, than what I think, I could care less what you think or how you make me look, I care about a man who claims to be from God telling everyone to be obedience, when he is sinning almost every post he makes.
Maybe you should stop talking to anyone, because you can not handle when they tell you plainly, You are misrepresenting what they really believe, and are slandering them with false truths. And when they tell you thi, You get offended and go on a tyrade about how it is all them, and you are doing nothing wrong..
People disagree with me all the time,, It does not bother me at all..
Nope. I am sure people sincerely believe that. One poster last year when I said as a child when I reached out for Jesus's hand it held a knarled hand of Satan, that took me aback. It took a few months to get over.
And the person who said it never admitted it. It is the weirdest comment I ever had from a "christian"
So I have truly had it all.
And the person who said it never admitted it. It is the weirdest comment I ever had from a "christian"
So I have truly had it all.
It is a human thing to misunderstand what someone has meant to say.
I think it must stem back to the tower of babel somehow...
We pick out a part of what someone has said and we...process it. But sometimes, that process involves something other than what they actually said. Some preconceived addition in our mind.
To exacerbate it all, sometimes our issue isn't even with what they said, but what we feel they left OUT of what they said.
For instance, for me to say, I must be holy because God is holy - someone may just assume (because I did not say it also) that I think this is somehow possible other than relying on God to somehow bring this about. So they think I am stuck in works and strivings of my own strength.
So they are believing I said something that I did NOT say. It was a supposing or conclusion that they ADDED to what I said.
This can be kept to a minimum if we don't try to classify a person (i.e: oh they are a calvinist, or they are works based, or they are of a sinless perfection doctrine, etc.) If they seem to believe one thing that most baptists believe, or one thing most calvinists believe, or one thing John Hagee has said, it doesn't mean they believe EVERYTHING those groups or people have said.
So it's best not to find a label to give to everyone because it is actually preconceived prejudices that make us do this. It takes a lot of conversation to understand someone else. Laziness that wants to just slap a label on them for one thing they have said or believe is never a good thing. And besides, often, WHILE in conversation, they are learning and tweaking a thing here or there in their understanding and belief. So what they began saying might actually be altered a bit by some part of the conversation and there you have gone putting a label on them that doesn't apply because they no longer believe exactly what they began saying but have tweaked it in their mind!
I think it must stem back to the tower of babel somehow...
We pick out a part of what someone has said and we...process it. But sometimes, that process involves something other than what they actually said. Some preconceived addition in our mind.
To exacerbate it all, sometimes our issue isn't even with what they said, but what we feel they left OUT of what they said.
For instance, for me to say, I must be holy because God is holy - someone may just assume (because I did not say it also) that I think this is somehow possible other than relying on God to somehow bring this about. So they think I am stuck in works and strivings of my own strength.
So they are believing I said something that I did NOT say. It was a supposing or conclusion that they ADDED to what I said.
This can be kept to a minimum if we don't try to classify a person (i.e: oh they are a calvinist, or they are works based, or they are of a sinless perfection doctrine, etc.) If they seem to believe one thing that most baptists believe, or one thing most calvinists believe, or one thing John Hagee has said, it doesn't mean they believe EVERYTHING those groups or people have said.
So it's best not to find a label to give to everyone because it is actually preconceived prejudices that make us do this. It takes a lot of conversation to understand someone else. Laziness that wants to just slap a label on them for one thing they have said or believe is never a good thing. And besides, often, WHILE in conversation, they are learning and tweaking a thing here or there in their understanding and belief. So what they began saying might actually be altered a bit by some part of the conversation and there you have gone putting a label on them that doesn't apply because they no longer believe exactly what they began saying but have tweaked it in their mind!
thank you
jesus.
for converting the apostle paul. who was led by your holy spirit to write romans 5 (after you were back in heaven and seated at the right hand of god,) as a reminder, to all the blind christians, who can t see what you already done for them. before they even opened there bibles.
for romans 5
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through
Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Romans 8: Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
you need a law for condemnation, of sin. it said here you have been set free, from the law of sin.
jesus.
for converting the apostle paul. who was led by your holy spirit to write romans 5 (after you were back in heaven and seated at the right hand of god,) as a reminder, to all the blind christians, who can t see what you already done for them. before they even opened there bibles.
for romans 5
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through
Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Romans 8: Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
you need a law for condemnation, of sin. it said here you have been set free, from the law of sin.