Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam
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E
Just to remind people where this all started today.
Stating matter of factly, I do not have the goal or the ability to be righteous pure and holy, in this lifetime, Which is a flat out lie, a slanderous statement, and already discqualifies him from having any conversation with anyone like me, Because he already has it in his head what the other person believes, it does not matter if they believe it or not to him it is fact..
Another lie, because as Peter has been shown time and time again by myself and so many others..This is not the least bit evil, in fact we should all strive to enter into this (spiritual maturity) aspect of life.
Our problem is wiht people who make this a pre requisite for salvation.
So again, Peter has a bias, and in his view myself and everyone like me already think this, what we actually believe does not matter, it is truth (according to peter) so there is no possability of any discussion between peter and anyone who does not agree with him, because he THINKS he knows what we believe (even though he is FALSE on all accounts in these two matters)
but he could not stop there, as if these to lies were not enough, He had to take it further.
It is not HIS bias (which I just proved was a false bias) but My percieved bias (which has already been established, is not true) which is the issue.
so again, we have the "do as I say, not as I do" doctrine of peter jenz..
Stating matter of factly, I do not have the goal or the ability to be righteous pure and holy, in this lifetime, Which is a flat out lie, a slanderous statement, and already discqualifies him from having any conversation with anyone like me, Because he already has it in his head what the other person believes, it does not matter if they believe it or not to him it is fact..
Another lie, because as Peter has been shown time and time again by myself and so many others..This is not the least bit evil, in fact we should all strive to enter into this (spiritual maturity) aspect of life.
Our problem is wiht people who make this a pre requisite for salvation.
So again, Peter has a bias, and in his view myself and everyone like me already think this, what we actually believe does not matter, it is truth (according to peter) so there is no possability of any discussion between peter and anyone who does not agree with him, because he THINKS he knows what we believe (even though he is FALSE on all accounts in these two matters)
but he could not stop there, as if these to lies were not enough, He had to take it further.
It is not HIS bias (which I just proved was a false bias) but My percieved bias (which has already been established, is not true) which is the issue.
so again, we have the "do as I say, not as I do" doctrine of peter jenz..
If someone gets offended by you saying "get a grip," maybe just say instead, wait, please, don't be upset with me. I shouldn't have set that. It was a little sarcastic and rude and please forgive me. What I meant to say was, I disagree, because etc., etc.
Why let it blow up into world war four? Just say, I din't mean to upset you. Maybe sometimes I could say things more gently. Problem solved and conversation back on track.
Why let it blow up into world war four? Just say, I din't mean to upset you. Maybe sometimes I could say things more gently. Problem solved and conversation back on track.
I went backwards to try to figure out where the misunderstanding occured...
I wanted to pull out whatever phrase is being talked about to see if EG said something that he could possibly further explain to clear up the misunderstanding but I think it will be impossible that way.
Peter, could you give me a list of some sort as to what you think hyper grace means?
I wanted to pull out whatever phrase is being talked about to see if EG said something that he could possibly further explain to clear up the misunderstanding but I think it will be impossible that way.
Peter, could you give me a list of some sort as to what you think hyper grace means?
Yeah, that's too much to sift through. 
I think we might start by hearing what peter defines as hyper grace.
Then take each of the points one by one.
The only thing I am sure of was the conversation yesterday, where he thinks part of hyper grace is that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin.
From the conversation we had about it though, I thought it was the word "convict" that bothered some. I look at the word to mean "convince, or point out." I thought maybe others who were bothered by the word convict agreed that the Holy Spirit does, in great mercy, point out or show us where we go wrong in our heart. So it seemed to just be an objection to one word which we cleared up...
But the rest of what he considers to be hyper grace I'm still not certain of because it never stays calm enough in a thread to suss it out...
I think we might start by hearing what peter defines as hyper grace.
Then take each of the points one by one.
The only thing I am sure of was the conversation yesterday, where he thinks part of hyper grace is that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin.
From the conversation we had about it though, I thought it was the word "convict" that bothered some. I look at the word to mean "convince, or point out." I thought maybe others who were bothered by the word convict agreed that the Holy Spirit does, in great mercy, point out or show us where we go wrong in our heart. So it seemed to just be an objection to one word which we cleared up...
But the rest of what he considers to be hyper grace I'm still not certain of because it never stays calm enough in a thread to suss it out...
E
Yeah, that's too much to sift through.
I think we might start by hearing what peter defines as hyper grace.
Then take each of the points one by one.
The only thing I am sure of was the conversation yesterday, where he thinks part of hyper grace is that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin.
From the conversation we had about it though, I thought it was the word "convict" that bothered some. I look at the word to mean "convince, or point out." I thought maybe others who were bothered by the word convict agreed that the Holy Spirit does, in great mercy, point out or show us where we go wrong in our heart. So it seemed to just be an objection to one word which we cleared up...
But the rest of what he considers to be hyper grace I'm still not certain of because it never stays calm enough in a thread to suss it out...
I think we might start by hearing what peter defines as hyper grace.
Then take each of the points one by one.
The only thing I am sure of was the conversation yesterday, where he thinks part of hyper grace is that the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin.
From the conversation we had about it though, I thought it was the word "convict" that bothered some. I look at the word to mean "convince, or point out." I thought maybe others who were bothered by the word convict agreed that the Holy Spirit does, in great mercy, point out or show us where we go wrong in our heart. So it seemed to just be an objection to one word which we cleared up...
But the rest of what he considers to be hyper grace I'm still not certain of because it never stays calm enough in a thread to suss it out...
And his response was pretty much like it is here, It is not him who has the problem, but us..
That's why I said, this is not a new issue, but an ongoing problem.
There was one thing I wanted to delve into but couldn't because it got too crazy.
It was the side discussion about "so that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ."
I don't think you were there at that point...
Do you understand when someone says, I am the righteousness of God in Christ?
I believe...that I am BECOMING this through the work of the Holy Spirit in me and my growth in virtues such as patience, humility, etc. From faith to faith and grace to grace, I truly do believe this. I can sometimes SEE though I don't understand HOW, that He is increasing and I am decreasing. I began to sometimes see it after a big fat crash and burn over my lack of humility which included losing a blessing from Him that I received. A job. But it's become rejoicing to me instead of a tragedy because I was out of control in my lack of humility and my constant demands to be treated well.
It was the side discussion about "so that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ."
I don't think you were there at that point...
Do you understand when someone says, I am the righteousness of God in Christ?
I believe...that I am BECOMING this through the work of the Holy Spirit in me and my growth in virtues such as patience, humility, etc. From faith to faith and grace to grace, I truly do believe this. I can sometimes SEE though I don't understand HOW, that He is increasing and I am decreasing. I began to sometimes see it after a big fat crash and burn over my lack of humility which included losing a blessing from Him that I received. A job. But it's become rejoicing to me instead of a tragedy because I was out of control in my lack of humility and my constant demands to be treated well.
E
ahh found it..
It can be found here. ( I was wrong on the date by the way, Same type of thread, but wrong one, Just another of the many witch hunt threads we have seen lately. )
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ce-righteousness-extreme-grace-version-2.html
here are the posts.
Originally Posted by PeterJens
Many have claimed it is slander to say those who call people who believe in obedience and righteousness as legalists, do not themselves support obedience and righteousness.
The real question is, are we talking about the same thing? The answer is no because they reject the principles and morality we would want to obey and call righteousness.
eternally-gratefull
Here is another lie. And another false precept.
We who they call "grace" believers believe in the untethered, un-broken law of God as the just standard of obedience.
We do not water the law down like they do. And consider our sin as just minor instances or goof ups. We see ALL sin as deplorable to God. No matter how small or inconsequential we believe that sin might be, And only by the grace of God can we be forgive of even the smallest of all sin..
We take Gods righteousness (perfection) as the standard. Not mans watered down righteousness.
I am not going to try to argue with you and tell you what you have wrong in your belief system, I am just going to prove your lies..
oh by the way, even back then I was worried about misrepresenting someone.. So I asked.
Originally Posted by PeterJens
Now they will strut and preen and say they are being loving to the weak believer and condemning the pharisee for their legalism and hypocracy. Now this appears on the surface a legitimate position until you realise it is they who continually confess about sin and failure, about being bound and never able to be free from issues. The best they do is repress ones conscience, say the Holy Spirit never convicts of sin, and say walking in the Spirit is the goal, but continually walk in the flesh which they feel guilty about.
This makes no sense whatsoever, can you please rephrase, I think I know what your trying to say, But unlike some people I do not want to say something about the other person which is not true..
but yet, as you hear peter say it, it is always us..
and here we see peters response.
Originally Posted by PeterJens
EG obviously will not agree with my point of view.
Now he says I am lying.
so you see from the beginning, it has been the same
I or someone else shows peter how he is misrepresenting what we believe. But instead of repenting, and say, I am sorry, I thought you meant this, or trying to figure out what the real issue was.
He denied ever doing anything wrong..
You can see the rest in the thread. this is just a few examples..
And people wonder why others get fed up!
It can be found here. ( I was wrong on the date by the way, Same type of thread, but wrong one, Just another of the many witch hunt threads we have seen lately. )
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ce-righteousness-extreme-grace-version-2.html
here are the posts.
The real question is, are we talking about the same thing? The answer is no because they reject the principles and morality we would want to obey and call righteousness.
eternally-gratefull
Here is another lie. And another false precept.
We who they call "grace" believers believe in the untethered, un-broken law of God as the just standard of obedience.
We do not water the law down like they do. And consider our sin as just minor instances or goof ups. We see ALL sin as deplorable to God. No matter how small or inconsequential we believe that sin might be, And only by the grace of God can we be forgive of even the smallest of all sin..
We take Gods righteousness (perfection) as the standard. Not mans watered down righteousness.
I am not going to try to argue with you and tell you what you have wrong in your belief system, I am just going to prove your lies..
Originally Posted by PeterJens
Righteousness? Well nothing in the law, because that is just for Jews or to convict of failure.
eternally-gratefull
Here is lie number two. (or am I on three now) That we do not take the law as our standard. I have yet to hear a person in CC say this is true, as far as how a person should live their life.
How to get saved? Well yes, Paul says by the law no man will be saved, But as a guidline of what is morally right? He is lying about what we believe
Righteousness? Well nothing in the law, because that is just for Jews or to convict of failure.
eternally-gratefull
Here is lie number two. (or am I on three now) That we do not take the law as our standard. I have yet to hear a person in CC say this is true, as far as how a person should live their life.
How to get saved? Well yes, Paul says by the law no man will be saved, But as a guidline of what is morally right? He is lying about what we believe
oh by the way, even back then I was worried about misrepresenting someone.. So I asked.
Now they will strut and preen and say they are being loving to the weak believer and condemning the pharisee for their legalism and hypocracy. Now this appears on the surface a legitimate position until you realise it is they who continually confess about sin and failure, about being bound and never able to be free from issues. The best they do is repress ones conscience, say the Holy Spirit never convicts of sin, and say walking in the Spirit is the goal, but continually walk in the flesh which they feel guilty about.
This makes no sense whatsoever, can you please rephrase, I think I know what your trying to say, But unlike some people I do not want to say something about the other person which is not true..
but yet, as you hear peter say it, it is always us..
and here we see peters response.
Now he says I am lying.
I or someone else shows peter how he is misrepresenting what we believe. But instead of repenting, and say, I am sorry, I thought you meant this, or trying to figure out what the real issue was.
He denied ever doing anything wrong..
You can see the rest in the thread. this is just a few examples..
And people wonder why others get fed up!
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, that was very difficult to follow...
I want to hear peter speak when he returns. I would like to hear him lay out hyper grace in one post and then take each point that he attributes to you as your belief.
I want to suggest a few things if you are willing to listen to me.
If he says you are a liar, do you think you could simply ignore it? It isn't very lovely on his part to say someone is a liar but I think you would be the best able to ignore it for now and instead of calling him a liar back, just say, I think this slightly misrepresents what it is that I personally believe, and then try to explain in your own words.
I know you have already tried to explain in your own words. I just believe that if it can be done without the word "lie" on your part, that you will influence him to stop doing it himself.
In this way, maybe you can both interact in conversation with each other and he may be able to hear YOU instead of what he THINKS you believe.
If he keeps insisting on using the word liar, stay calm, don't worry that you must defend yourself, and just focus on trying to get across what it is that you do believe.
I don't know where the verse is but it says, "you must influence them. Do not let them influence you."
Take the low road of humility and meekness and gentleness in speech and let him take the high road if he wants.
Ignore things like "liar," "hypocrite," etc. Do not repay in kind but consider instead what God approves of in your speech and manner.
Don't give up. If you see yourself becoming influenced by him instead of the other way around, take a break and talk with God then come back. Just politely excuse yourself and say you will be back shortly.
I think if you do this, obeying God in how you are supposed to walk in manner and speech,(regardless of if someone else is not walking pleasing to Him) the good things you want to occur will begin to occur.
The only other suggestion I have is to ignore all other posts for the time being except for Peters. Even if others jump in and begin berating peter for how he is speaking, ignore it.
In this way, you will not fall to satans attempts to stir up your own flesh and you will be conducting yourself to please God, not yourself, not others, just God.
Those are my suggestions. Nothing else has worked. They are worth a try. I believe good will always come from obeying our Lord and His example of how to walk. In fact, I have seen that it does in my own life and experience.
I want to hear peter speak when he returns. I would like to hear him lay out hyper grace in one post and then take each point that he attributes to you as your belief.
I want to suggest a few things if you are willing to listen to me.
If he says you are a liar, do you think you could simply ignore it? It isn't very lovely on his part to say someone is a liar but I think you would be the best able to ignore it for now and instead of calling him a liar back, just say, I think this slightly misrepresents what it is that I personally believe, and then try to explain in your own words.
I know you have already tried to explain in your own words. I just believe that if it can be done without the word "lie" on your part, that you will influence him to stop doing it himself.
In this way, maybe you can both interact in conversation with each other and he may be able to hear YOU instead of what he THINKS you believe.
If he keeps insisting on using the word liar, stay calm, don't worry that you must defend yourself, and just focus on trying to get across what it is that you do believe.
I don't know where the verse is but it says, "you must influence them. Do not let them influence you."
Take the low road of humility and meekness and gentleness in speech and let him take the high road if he wants.
Ignore things like "liar," "hypocrite," etc. Do not repay in kind but consider instead what God approves of in your speech and manner.
Don't give up. If you see yourself becoming influenced by him instead of the other way around, take a break and talk with God then come back. Just politely excuse yourself and say you will be back shortly.
I think if you do this, obeying God in how you are supposed to walk in manner and speech,(regardless of if someone else is not walking pleasing to Him) the good things you want to occur will begin to occur.
The only other suggestion I have is to ignore all other posts for the time being except for Peters. Even if others jump in and begin berating peter for how he is speaking, ignore it.
In this way, you will not fall to satans attempts to stir up your own flesh and you will be conducting yourself to please God, not yourself, not others, just God.
Those are my suggestions. Nothing else has worked. They are worth a try. I believe good will always come from obeying our Lord and His example of how to walk. In fact, I have seen that it does in my own life and experience.
E
I look forward to Peters response.
also. Peter calling me a liar does not affect me..
Again, that is not the issue..
The issue is all these hate threads, all these lies about their so called fellow Christians, and refusal to admit when you are proven to be in sin.
If he would understand what we say, There would be no issue whatsoever, even if we did not agree..
This is proven by the fact there is not an issue with anyone else in CC but a certain 2 people..
Yet there are all kinds of disagreements all over cc..
again, Disagreement is not the issue. Saying people believe and starting hate and heresy threads and posts based on false information and lies. That's a major issue.
also. Peter calling me a liar does not affect me..
Again, that is not the issue..
The issue is all these hate threads, all these lies about their so called fellow Christians, and refusal to admit when you are proven to be in sin.
If he would understand what we say, There would be no issue whatsoever, even if we did not agree..
This is proven by the fact there is not an issue with anyone else in CC but a certain 2 people..
Yet there are all kinds of disagreements all over cc..
again, Disagreement is not the issue. Saying people believe and starting hate and heresy threads and posts based on false information and lies. That's a major issue.
if your going to return to law, then it has no value,3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from graceGalatians 5: Christ Has Set Us Free
if paul is tell this to a jewish christian.
here is my problem. see,a saviour did not ask you to repent. (gentile)acts 10 cornelious never repented to get the holy spirit.
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4: Abraham Justified by Faith
the basic message the apostles preached, death is conquered , through jesus christ.( old covenant job done)
new covenant
believe in a god through jesus christ.
"6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through meJohn 14
and
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3
spot the difference.
paul persecute the way,( the way to god, through jesus christ.) before he was converted to believing in jesus.
.4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women,5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punishedActs 22:
( old covenant job done) new covenant, to get to god believe in jesus christ(christian bible teachings).
if paul is tell this to a jewish christian.
here is my problem. see,a saviour did not ask you to repent. (gentile)acts 10 cornelious never repented to get the holy spirit.
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring---not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,Romans 4: Abraham Justified by Faith
the basic message the apostles preached, death is conquered , through jesus christ.( old covenant job done)
new covenant
believe in a god through jesus christ.
"6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through meJohn 14
and
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3
spot the difference.
paul persecute the way,( the way to god, through jesus christ.) before he was converted to believing in jesus.
.4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women,5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punishedActs 22:
( old covenant job done) new covenant, to get to god believe in jesus christ(christian bible teachings).