Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam

[royalscot]

so rome 5 and 8 would be fact, to a saviour , that gave a free pass, to by pass. the law of sin and death.

meaning no believer should feel, fear of death, or condemnation from law, given that all believers, are on the same boat.

saved by a saviour,a gift to all mankind. from god through jesus christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

??? You post is confusing, care to clarify? Did you or another poster see a satanic hand as a child?

I,think you thought faster than you typed and forgot a few words...I do it alot so have to go back and clarify before posting, or edit after posting.

I had to read it twice too before I understood.
He was saying that sometime last year he was telling about an experience he had when he was a child about reaching out for Jesus' hand. And someone else posted that when he did, he instead grabbed the gnarled hand of satan. Glad I didn't hear it. Pretty awful thing to say.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

He made a list of 13 points...still a straw man though.

Different thread, nice list if anyone actually believed it.

Out of curiosity, sister, what does strawman mean? I've been wondering...

 

[Ariel82]

Out of curiosity, sister, what does strawman mean? I've been wondering...

It's when someone claims that someone says or believes something that they don't and then go about "disproving" what the other person never believed in the first place.

Don't know why they bother talking to each other, seems to always and in a fight.

 

[PeterJens]

??? You post is confusing, care to clarify? Did you or another poster see a satanic hand as a child?

I,think you thought faster than you typed and forgot a few words...I do it alot so have to go back and clarify before posting, or edit after posting.

Ariel - The conversation went this way. I wanted to share about my early experience of reaching out to Christ in need for reasurrance. I expressed it in terms of having my hand held by Jesus.

The members response was to suggest it was not Jesus's hand I found but satans. It is an interesting response. The content is just to suggest I am totally deceived. My intent was to talk about we are held by Christ from an early age and he reaches out to all of us. It surprised me. Another member suggested they apologise. I was shocked because I expected empathy not this kind of response. It is projecting their thoughts on to me. Are they claiming a word of knowledge?
It was just a picture of an emotional position not a reality.

 

[Grace777x70]

Out of curiosity, sister, what does strawman mean? I've been wondering...

Hi,...here is an example of the "straw-man"

Beware of the "straw-man!"

A straw-man approach, or argument, is a tactic often described as a logical fallacy. It is the practice of presenting a simplified and often inaccurate summary of an opponent's views, then attacking that summary and concluding that you have thereby won the argument.

The problem with it is that the presenter usually does not accurately represent the opponent's views, so what he is attacking is actually a "straw-man", not the actual thing itself.

In the so called hyper-grace arena.....here is an example of the above "straw-man" technique in action.

...people against the grace of our Lord Jesus talked about here will say.."..the hyper-gracers say you don't have to repent and you can do whatever sin you want!" ( this is their straw-man )

Everyone knows that Christians need to change their mind and turn to Jesus....everyone knows that sinning is wrong and will destroy us....which is why Jesus came to save us from. ( This is their attack on the straw-man )

Thus the "straw-man" is killed off and so their original premise shows the validity of their argument. This is not even remotely the truth. In real life no believers in grace says we don't change our way of thinking to line up with God's nor is it ok to sin all you want.

It doesn't matter how many times we say that grace is not a licence to sin. It is what some people hear.

What is happening is that people are "hearing" something else other then what is actually being said by believers in the grace of Jesus as outlined in the word of God.

Another thing is that it's the definitions of the words that throws people off because a word meaning in their mind is tied to their religious beliefs of the meaning of a word.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It's when someone claims that someone says or believes something that they don't and then go about "disproving" what the other person never believed in the first place.

Don't know why they bother talking to each other, seems to always and in a fight.

Ahh...I see!
But here's the thing. I don't think they are doing it intentionally...
I mean, I think they really do believe the other person thinks whatever it is.
Like...they have lists. Once you are placed in a certain category or label, you HAVE to believe the whole list. Even if you only believe one thing ON the list, to them you believe it all.

It's like, oh, you're a woman? That means you're a bad driver.
Oh, you're indian? That means you own a convenience store.

And if you said, actually, no, I don't own a store, they'd not even hear what you said because they've already written a single story for you.

 

[PeterJens]

...

Let me ask you a simple question. Is this a trial of an exchange?
EG is not the main proponent of hyper-grace. He is not even aware of all the discussions we have had on this subject.

As far as using the term liar, it is he who started saying this. But as demonstrated here there is no content, but he wants to create this conflict. I merely said he was inventing these issues, just like he has here.

Part of the mental illness approach is to suck people into their delusions and justify their extreme responses. The more you feed it the more it grows. So please do not feed this, it has no value or foundation.

A key indication of this insanity is the proponent does not provide any real content because they are inventing the situation and then not being able to substantiate it, have to go silent.

I think putting energy into moving the subject of total inability is a lot more constructive. I have zero animosity towards EG, this is just not functional behaviour. I am sure you have already spotted this. This is all I want to contribute on this issue.

 

[mpaper345]

Total inability is a belief that who we are means we are sinners to the day we die.
We can never walk righteously or be acceptable to God, only if God looks at us through Christs righteousness.

Now the bible is unclear about what this is and what righteousness and sin are completely.
As we walk with Christ our views and focus change, as we become more like Him.

For some theologians sex is what defines total inability and the sexual act is sinful.

Now my approach is the opposite way round. What can be achieved in life?

Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Rev 22:10-11

We can be "holy"

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matt 19:21

We can be "perfect"

Some say you cannot be blameless as to the law, yet Paul, Moses, Abraham were.

On this brief point, it appears we can achieve walking in righteousness and being righteous in Christ.
If this is so total inability must be wrong.

Looking at church history, the early church did not believe in total inability, but it came to the church through the gnostics.

So the next question is really how do we become so we are righteous?

Do you agree?

We allow the Spirit to lead us,then we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,and will show the characteristics of the Spirit,then we are not under the law,which means the law cannot touch us for prosecution,for then we are displaying the righteousness of Christ,and not our own righteousness.

The ones that did not allow the Spirit,are the ones that will say to Christ,Lord,why can't we be with you,and Jesus will say,depart from me,for I never knew you,for they were workers of iniquity,and did not do the will of the Father,they had a form of godliness,but denied the power thereof,they were ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,which they thought their wrongful lifestyle would not hurt their salvation status,having the attitude,well we are not perfect,and cannot abstain from sin,and out of the 10 virgins,5 did not have the Spirit,and missed out on the resurrection.

 

[Ariel82]

Ahh...I see!
But here's the thing. I don't think they are doing it intentionally...
I mean, I think they really do believe the other person thinks whatever it is.
Like...they have lists. Once you are placed in a certain category or label, you HAVE to believe the whole list. Even if you only believe one thing ON the list, to them you believe it all.

It's like, oh, you're a woman? That means you're a bad driver.
Oh, you're indian? That means you own a convenience store.

And if you said, actually, no, I don't own a store, they'd not even hear what you said because they've already written a single story for you.

Yeah I want to take a wrecking ball to preconceived notions.

I know God teaches me and I grow and change every day.

Every night I give him my days work and failure, my joys and my sorrow. I give it all to Him and pray that he helps me fix the hurts I gave to others the day before and forgive others who hurt me. I ask that they forgive me.

Then I wake up Its a new day and I am ready to greet everyone anew because I have forgiven them so they,must have forgiven me,right?
After all who would,disobey God and allow the,sun to set on their anger and give place to Satan to wreck their hearts and minds with bitterness and lies?

It makes me sad when I am wrong about that but I try and make amends because God says as much as it's in our power live peacefully with others,

 

[Grace777x70]

Post #268 ?....I had no idea that EG had this "mental illness".....we certainly should not feed into EG's mental illness....when was he diagnosed? Did he say what kind of medication he was on?...is this really true as post #268 indicates? ..we really need to pray for him if it is. I'm sure EG will let us know about all this.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Okay then. There's not much else I can think of to do if you don't want to explain what you believe a hyper gracer believes. I had thought it might help to talk about each point but...I guess you don't have an interest in it. If anyone else might want to help by listing what hyper grace means, what they believe, I'd like to hear it and think it might help us. I suppose I could try to dig around and see if I could find the 13 points someone spoke of...

 

[Ariel82]

Off topic and NOT worth,the dig.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Post #268 ?....I had no idea that EG had this "mental illness".....we certainly should not feed into EG's mental illness....when was he diagnosed? Did he say what kind of medication he was on?...is this really true as post #268 indicates? ..we really need to pray for him if it is. I'm sure EG will let us know about all this.

Maybe it's an opinion. Is someone not allowed to have an opinion?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We allow the Spirit to lead us,then we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,and will show the characteristics of the Spirit,then we are not under the law,which means the law cannot touch us for prosecution,for then we are displaying the righteousness of Christ,and not our own righteousness.

The ones that did not allow the Spirit,are the ones that will say to Christ,Lord,why can't we be with you,and Jesus will say,depart from me,for I never knew you,for they were workers of iniquity,and did not do the will of the Father,they had a form of godliness,but denied the power thereof,they were ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,which they thought their wrongful lifestyle would not hurt their salvation status,having the attitude,well we are not perfect,and cannot abstain from sin,and out of the 10 virgins,5 did not have the Spirit,and missed out on the resurrection.

I like your first paragraph here. I think I have never heard it expressed so neatly and cleanly!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yeah I want to take a wrecking ball to preconceived notions.

I know God teaches me and I grow and change every day.

Every night I give him my days work and failure, my joys and my sorrow. I give it all to Him and pray that he helps me fix the hurts I gave to others the day before and forgive others who hurt me. I ask that they forgive me.

Then I wake up Its a new day and I am ready to greet everyone anew because I have forgiven them so they,must have forgiven me,right?
After all who would,disobey God and allow the,sun to set on their anger and give place to Satan to wreck their hearts and minds with bitterness and lies?

It makes me sad when I am wrong about that but I try and make amends because God says as much as it's in our power live peacefully with others,

This has really touched me. I am able to connect with someone so much better when they use their own words instead of religious speak.

 

[Ariel82]

Inherited sin nature has two real aspects

1. We are biological creatures limited by our DNA from our parents
2. We are born separate from God

There are two very important aspects of existance
1. Empathy
2. Options

Our brains have to construct what is happening in other people to understand them and have empathy. Without this we could never have a sense of relationships and oneness.

Our brains have to present to us a series of opportunities along with all the emotional paybacks involved. These options have no limit or filter, so can be truly evil or good, because the driving force is survival and optimising the benefits.

Again the fact we are driven and present with all these experiences and alternatives does not mean with a heart of love we cannot choose that which is righteous.

Now many would say Jesus says because the heart pollutes the soul, the heart cannot not be purified.
If you look closely Jesus is saying, purify the heart and then things will be seen correctly. It was the critism of the pharisees that they cleaned the cup but not the heart. To then take that to mean Jesus does not purify our hearts and consciencies is to believe defeat is the way of Christ.

I agree with two points here

1. Man without God will always sin
2. Man without God will always think the wrong things are good and bad

I also agree that emotional lostness is complete, and unless God breaks in we create for ourselves a self justifying existance.
But once God has broken in, and brought His love and Spirit things change.

The key question for me is what is behaviour and why is it focused one way or the other. Now I know after 30+ years walking with the Lord and learning His ways, and becoming a "mature" christian, which is always relative, I have many faults, I find my understanding of life and what I do and not do are very different than in my youth.

This therefore leads me to understand if ones theology is based on man alone you miss the promise of the Kingdom.

Wonder if multi quotes works

 

[royalscot]

Let me ask you a simple question. Is this a trial of an exchange?
EG is not the main proponent of hyper-grace. He is not even aware of all the discussions we have had on this subject.

As far as using the term liar, it is he who started saying this. But as demonstrated here there is no content, but he wants to create this conflict. I merely said he was inventing these issues, just like he has here.

Part of the mental illness approach is to suck people into their delusions and justify their extreme responses. The more you feed it the more it grows. So please do not feed this, it has no value or foundation.

A key indication of this insanity is the proponent does not provide any real content because they are inventing the situation and then not being able to substantiate it, have to go silent.

I think putting energy into moving the subject of total inability is a lot more constructive. I have zero animosity towards EG, this is just not functional behaviour. I am sure you have already spotted this. This is all I want to contribute on this issue.

if your going to reject, what a saviour, has already done for a believer. then it makes no difference, to how your interpretation of scripture is.

you make new words of hyper grace, or try to justify your own stand of belief, yet reject bible truth.

the old covenant is still at war, with a new covenant in many antichrist religions.

yet some religions are christian, yet walk back to a old covenant for justification, to maintaining a saviour free gift.


trying to mix them is pointless, in a modern day. yet is this, the point that et is telling you.

easy to see, condemnation from someone. etc

 

[Ariel82]

Inherited sin nature has two real aspects

1. We are biological creatures limited by our DNA from our parents
2. We are born separate from God

There are two very important aspects of existance
1. Empathy
2. Options

Our brains have to construct what is happening in other people to understand them and have empathy. Without this we could never have a sense of relationships and oneness.

Our brains have to present to us a series of opportunities along with all the emotional paybacks involved. These options have no limit or filter, so can be truly evil or good, because the driving force is survival and optimising the benefits.

Again the fact we are driven and present with all these experiences and alternatives does not mean with a heart of love we cannot choose that which is righteous.

Now many would say Jesus says because the heart pollutes the soul, the heart cannot not be purified.
If you look closely Jesus is saying, purify the heart and then things will be seen correctly. It was the critism of the pharisees that they cleaned the cup but not the heart. To then take that to mean Jesus does not purify our hearts and consciencies is to believe defeat is the way of Christ.

I agree with two points here

1. Man without God will always sin
2. Man without God will always think the wrong things are good and bad

I also agree that emotional lostness is complete, and unless God breaks in we create for ourselves a self justifying existance.
But once God has broken in, and brought His love and Spirit things change.

The key question for me is what is behaviour and why is it focused one way or the other. Now I know after 30+ years walking with the Lord and learning His ways, and becoming a "mature" christian, which is always relative, I have many faults, I find my understanding of life and what I do and not do are very different than in my youth.

This therefore leads me to understand if ones theology is based on man alone you miss the promise of the Kingdom.

Okay!
Ezekiel 21 - He tells the prophet to tell the people, I am against you and all of your sanctuaries. I am about to destroy all of you - the righteous along with the wicked. (my paraphrase).
What the heck?? This doesn't fit with Noah, Lot, or any other thing He has ever said!
Is there even one example of God destroying the righteous along with the wicked? We're talking DESTRUCTION - not just like telling His people if they went peacefully to bondage in Babylon they would be safe but if they refused they would die. This is total destruction of the righteous?

It's like He's saying, I don't care if you are righteous or not, you will be destroyed just like the wicked. Was He just having a bad day and He changed His mind later?

And could this tie in somehow to Him saying He was mad at all the priests because they were making no distinction at ALL between what was holy and what was not?

As to the verse in Rev, the 4 groups, my question is, could these 4 groups be placed alongside the 4 soils? And if they were, which groups are the same and how many of the groups produce fruit? It is only the last group.

Could those who do harm be the first soil,
those who are filthy be the second soil,
those who live righteously be the third soil,
and those who are holy be the fourth soil?

Okay finally dug this up...now to work on the puzzle...

 

[Ariel82]

Oops...too much multiquoting, sorry.