Mysticism & righteousness

[garee]

the experience was not written down for about 150 - 200 yearts. the 12 did not have and did not use anything written down. the

Yes it was much longer when Moses was moved to record the interpretation of God who was there as a witness. One third of human history had passed by.

Today we have the whole law with a warning not to add .

Other than that which was written down which was used by the noble Berean's when they heard Paul speak and were moved by the Holy Spirit to search the scriptures to see if what he was offering was from God or men.

 

[PeterJens]

Can we step back so that you can at least let us know what the "dispute" was?

This is a good question. I have not yet in my mind worked it out. I came to cc. I saw a discussion between two people who agreed on their spiritual experience. The believed in spiritual oversight, the gifts, ministry. The person they were talking to they were rebuking and saying what he was doing was wrong and unspiritual. The felt in their "spirits" they we speaking the truth. The words they used were like, we speak for God, do not resist this, submit.

I came along and wanted to get to know this party and see what he was actually doing and why. I started defending his position and points which were just what he was doing which was fair enough. Ofcourse I was then the enemy, interfering in something I did not know or was "qualified" to understand. It then because personal, trying to wind me up and suggest I was motivated, inspired by satan. And all this out of me being empathetic and listening.

This has repeated among various contributors. And the common them 1 year on has been this mystical thread, the implied authority it gives people to pronounce on things they do not know and attack people they regard as "wrong", "evil" etc.
Then we have the hyper-grace theology and pronouncements which add to this approach.

Once you start to classify what the beliefs are, how emotionally people then justify their interactions it becomes a lot clearer. It is also why christianity that survives is more interlectual and life based and not mystic. History show the mystic elements often spin off into heresy. Once you say emotions are spiritual insights and certainty, anything becomes possible.

I am very emotional, but not at the price of God or theology. I will analyse and spend time drawing conclusions.
I hope this helps. By the way, being with the Lord in praise is the highest high you can ever get, but we do not live in the mountain tops, most of life is walking through the valleys knowing the mountain tops are worth it.

 

[PeterJens]

Can we step back so that you can at least let us know what the "dispute" was?
Further, I guess it also depends on what one's faith is in...

A mystic,a Christian, whatever outward name we have given ourselves (remember, GOD sees inwardly what no man can see) ...if they are both on ONE FOUNDATION, (which IS the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL of GOD/THE TRUTH OF CHRIST AND THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS)...are brothers...provided they remain on THAT FOUNDATION and do not go out from THE FAITH directed in and on CHRIST alone.

Do you agree?

Therefore, wouldn't it depend on what all began in?
for as the WORD of TRUTH states: this anointing is real...if what you began in remains in you, you too will remain in BOTH the FATHER and the SON. (1John 2)


The problem arises when one "goes out" and adds to THE FOUNDATION what does not belong...

And one who has had a mystical encounter, in the sense, similar to Paul's "hit over the head" felt conversion, he will either remain in THE TRUTH...or "go out" from THE TRUTH. GOD is able to test and prove our faith so when one enters a dark night, (that is all the sensual lower carnal feelings are silenced so the one who had that initial felt conversion, who feels very profoundly CHRIST'S presence, is taken through a dark night (which is because one doesn't feel HIM as profoundly as they had from the beginning) he feels like he is left alone and he is set down to walk (unaided so it seems) by faith...and there will be a difference between those who seek the BELOVED for the BELOVED, from those who will seek a replacement, a substitute for that lost sensual experience.

You said our behavior is the foundation.

I don't agree.

I do agree that our behavior will be the evidence of our faith...and if one's LOVE is directed in and on the person of JESUS CHRIST, it will be made manifest and will be the difference between those who REMAIN IN HIM...from those who "go out" from HIM...

Thankyou for this. These are good points. Foundations matter.
Do I know what is my foundation? Do I know what is your foundation? It takes time, patience and learning.

The real test is fruit, or the logical consequence of a ethic or teaching. 99% of life is cover of the core ethics at work.
You need to peal away to find these ethics, and they will tell you what the teaching really is.

The mystic and the follower of Jesus are different. The mystic view of Jesus is a different Jesus to following Jesus who walked with the apostles. Maybe I should call this to our version of Jesus. As these foundations are different saying the word brother or sister does not really apply. We have different faiths and views on what we are in Christ and how we follow.

Behaviour. When you said you disagreed I had an image. Behaviour is often thought of as physical action.
I think of it rather in, thoughts, praise, aspiration, interaction with others, what is regarded as sin and what is regard as good.

Behaviour defines or is who we are. We are the sum of our behaviours. If you took away behaviour there is nothing left.
We are defined by each action or stimulus and reaction to it. We exist within time, one heart beat to the next. Our faith is also our behaviour in relation to Christ. If our behaviour does not reflect us being children of the living God, then we are not.

We love to believe we are more than these interactions, but strip away at us, and you will see we are programmed by life to behave and be consistent to behaviours, and it is the predicatability of these behaviours that give us safety, social interaction and love.

 

[jaybird88]

Yes it was much longer when Moses was moved to record the interpretation of God who was there as a witness. One third of human history had passed by.

what Jesus taught was not wrote down until many years later. do you think the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham did not happen because they were not wrote down at the times they lived.

Today we have the whole law with a warning not to add . Other than that which was written down which was used by the noble Berean's when they heard Paul speak and were moved by the Holy Spirit to search the scriptures to see if what he was offering was from God or men.

we have the laws of Moses. we do not have every teaching that once existed.

if everything we needed was written down there would be no need of the Spirit of truth.

the Bereans would have used the Hebrew Tanakh, are you saying the Tanakh is the only valid scriptures of the Lord? the teachigs of Jesus, the 12, and Paul, these are not true teachings?

 

[PeterJens]

I do not see anything you have said that would be unbiblical . Jesus is the reason by the redemptive work on the cross. No man comes to the Father accept by Jesus. did Not God say a new heart I will place in you not of one of stone but flesh ? That he would remove the one of stone?

The resurrection Power of God through Christ Jesus has made us alive again; because we were already dead to sin before Christ saved us correct? was that death a real one and is this life we have now in Christ also a real one?

What is a new heart? A new heart could be the old heart or core of a person, changed opened up so it works properly or something outside put in its place. I go with the language is opening up the existing heart and bringing it to life.

The reason I go with this idea, is hearts can die again, become hard, reject the seed. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus talks of people becoming hard hearted.

The other idea is a heart of flesh, is a heart that will die, whereas the new made heart is eternal and is part of the Kingdom. We tend to think of language like this as solid things, yet we are talking about how people function within.

The mystic version is about perfection, and something external like a present being given that can never be lost, whereas scripture points towards a new living relationship, with choice and life, which by its nature can continue but also die.

To a degree I have found the fruit often shows which is the better model. In the end we are talking about ideas a believers as to what spiritually has happened, which does not change the events. If you end up junking righteousness and condemning those who follow Jesus faithfully, I would suggest the ideas are wrong. It is this that guides me to which version I go with, but amen if people choose other versions.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

After reading a few lines of the article, it is apparent that gnostic ideas are 100% similar to the mystic hyper-grace born again views. You have a new perfect heart. Spiritual growth is in emphasising your new identity, into which you grow, leaving your body or this world behind.

Indeed. I added a few minor additions (in square brackets) to read the way I see it. What do you think?

Gnostics believed that human beings, though locked in this material body, have a spark of the higher spiritual reality [of grace] within. This spark, if fanned into a flame [through renewing of the mind], can liberate us and help us evolve back into spiritual perfection. This happens through a process of self-discovery [called repentance], in which you discover your divine identity [of who you are in Christ], you separate from the world by ‘stripping off ’ the [sin] consciousness of the physical body, and you finally [after years of being trapped in legalism] experience the kingdom of light, peace, and life.​

 

[Grace777x70]

Indeed. I added a few minor additions (in square brackets) to read the way I see it. What do you think?

Gnostics believed that human beings, though locked in this material body, have a spark of the higher spiritual reality [of grace] within. This spark, if fanned into a flame [through renewing of the mind], can liberate us and help us evolve back into spiritual perfection. This happens through a process of self-discovery [called repentance], in which you discover your divine identity [of who you are in Christ], you separate from the world by ‘stripping off ’ the [sin] consciousness of the physical body, and you finally [after years of following legalism] experience the kingdom of light, peace, and life.​

Hey..that's pretty cool!..Let me try that too and add what I want to what people have said.....

Gnostics believed that human beings, though locked in this material body, have a spark of the higher spiritual reality [of maintaining our own self-righteousness ) within. This spark, if fanned into a flame [through doing our own goodness], can liberate us and help us evolve back into spiritual perfection. This happens through a process of self-discovery [called doing works of self-righteousness], in which you discover your divine identity [which is what we do to make ourselves acceptable to God], you separate from the world by ‘stripping off ’ the [God's righteousness that Jesus's blood provides] consciousness of the physical body, and you finally [after years of doing our own deeds of righteousness] experience the kingdom of light, peace, and life

 

[miknik5]

What is a new heart? A new heart could be the old heart or core of a person, changed opened up so it works properly or something outside put in its place. I go with the language is opening up the existing heart and bringing it to life.

The reason I go with this idea, is hearts can die again, become hard, reject the seed. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus talks of people becoming hard hearted.

The other idea is a heart of flesh, is a heart that will die, whereas the new made heart is eternal and is part of the Kingdom. We tend to think of language like this as solid things, yet we are talking about how people function within.

The mystic version is about perfection, and something external like a present being given that can never be lost, whereas scripture points towards a new living relationship, with choice and life, which by its nature can continue but also die.

To a degree I have found the fruit often shows which is the better model. In the end we are talking about ideas a believers as to what spiritually has happened, which does not change the events. If you end up junking righteousness and condemning those who follow Jesus faithfully, I would suggest the ideas are wrong. It is this that guides me to which version I go with, but amen if people choose other versions.

I am sorry...but don't you believe in THE WORD of GOD?

CHRIST said, for judgment I have come...and HE pointed to the prophecy of Isaiah with regards to the heart.
Don't you believe that GOD is doing HIS OWN WORK and that it has ever and always been HIS OWN WORK?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

What is a new heart? A new heart could be the old heart or core of a person, changed opened up so it works properly or something outside put in its place. I go with the language is opening up the existing heart and bringing it to life.

The reason I go with this idea, is hearts can die again, become hard, reject the seed. Elsewhere in scripture Jesus talks of people becoming hard hearted.

The other idea is a heart of flesh, is a heart that will die, whereas the new made heart is eternal and is part of the Kingdom. We tend to think of language like this as solid things, yet we are talking about how people function within.

The mystic version is about perfection, and something external like a present being given that can never be lost, whereas scripture points towards a new living relationship, with choice and life, which by its nature can continue but also die.

To a degree I have found the fruit often shows which is the better model. In the end we are talking about ideas a believers as to what spiritually has happened, which does not change the events. If you end up junking righteousness and condemning those who follow Jesus faithfully, I would suggest the ideas are wrong. It is this that guides me to which version I go with, but amen if people choose other versions.

If ALL mystics are talking about perfection, (which is not sinning, holiness) and you yourself have talked about it being possible to not sin both outwardly AND in the heart, (and BOTH inward and outward are necessary to be holy) then are you a mystic?

 

[PeterJens]

I am sorry...but don't you believe in THE WORD of GOD?

CHRIST said, for judgment I have come...and HE pointed to the prophecy of Isaiah with regards to the heart.
Don't you believe that GOD is doing HIS OWN WORK and that it has ever and always been HIS OWN WORK?

The issues with the word of God, is some concepts are by their nature open to interpretation.
Idea 1. Lazarus was risen from the dead. The story defines Lazarus had died and was put in the tomb. He then appeared alive. There was physical evidence of this.

Idea 2. You born again. A new creation. So this is a new start of life, a spiritual awakening. It is started by God from heaven. That is what we are told. That is the word of God.

The interpretation is what this means. The way you know this is just certain or open think of all the different meaning a passage could have. Then eliminate them and you will be left with a few that make sense.

The reason why christian life is so open, with such diverse understandings is because of this reality in life.
Have you not seen this in other people, who do not view Christ in the way you do? And how important is it, if love is working inside them? Do you see where I am coming from? Do you believe in Christ?

 

[miknik5]

The issues with the word of God, is some concepts are by their nature open to interpretation.
Idea 1. Lazarus was risen from the dead. The story defines Lazarus had died and was put in the tomb. He then appeared alive. There was physical evidence of this.

Idea 2. You born again. A new creation. So this is a new start of life, a spiritual awakening. It is started by God from heaven. That is what we are told. That is the word of God.

The interpretation is what this means. The way you know this is just certain or open think of all the different meaning a passage could have. Then eliminate them and you will be left with a few that make sense.

The reason why christian life is so open, with such diverse understandings is because of this reality in life.
Have you not seen this in other people, who do not view Christ in the way you do? And how important is it, if love is working inside them? Do you see where I am coming from? Do you believe in Christ?

OK. Then you truly ARE NOT understanding...

That same outpouring of the HOLY SPIRIT on the disciples then...is the SAME outpouring on HIS DISCIPLES today...and will be the SAME outpouring on HIS DISCIPLES tomorrow...

All those whom GOD opens the eyes and ears of the heart to the TRUTH of HIS SON...

And this is the very reason why, since this ANOINTING is REAL...no man will EVER be able to convince us otherwise.
We know who we learned of and from whom we learned it...

And it is THE SPIRIT (THAT WITNESS in the believer) who testifies to the TRUTH of THE WORD of GOD...

It doesn't matter what you might assume to be an "idea".
The TRUTH is THE TRUTH...
And HIS WORD does NOT contradict HIS VOICE/SPIRIT

And the prophecy of Isaiah (just as HE said) stands today...

For the call of all the prophets was if today you hear HIS VOICE...harden not your heart.

You see...the truth that a LIGHT has come into the world...is not only the verdict, but also the judgment...

For Judgment I have come...that those who see will be made blind and those who are blind will be made to see...
And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled...make the hearts of these people fat and give them eyes that see not and ears that hear not lest they should understand with THE HEART...turn...and HE should heal them.

The issue is that some men do not think they have any "health issue" therefore they do not think they need a PHYSICIAN...

 

[PeterJens]

Hey..that's pretty cool!..Let me try that too and add what I want to what people have said.....

Gnostics believed that human beings, though locked in this material body, have a spark of the higher spiritual reality [of maintaining our own self-righteousness ) within. This spark, if fanned into a flame [through doing our own goodness], can liberate us and help us evolve back into spiritual perfection. This happens through a process of self-discovery [called doing works of self-righteousness], in which you discover your divine identity [which is what we do to make ourselves acceptable to God], you separate from the world by ‘stripping off ’ the [God's righteousness that Jesus's blood provides] consciousness of the physical body, and you finally [after years of doing our own deeds of righteousness] experience the kingdom of light, peace, and life

This does not quite work if one side accept our mortality and growth from being sinners into saints to a point where we are totally acceptable to Christ and the other do not.

It is an interesting criticism of saying as an insult "own deeds of righteousness".

How can deeds of righteousness be not good and if they are done by the believer they will always be their "own" not someone elses?

It shows the ethic is how dare you be good people, that is so evil. This is what is wrong behind the process. Good things are good things and evil things are evil things. Shinning the light is shinning the light on all people that good is good and evil is evil separate from faith.

But here is a christian group saying this is not true. Then what is the morality and victory in Christ people are showing that Jesus is talking about? Being defeated in sin but praising the Lord and going to heaven?

 

[miknik5]

it is also why those who are born of HIS SPIRIT are able to BOTH...discern the TRUTH of the THINGS of GOD in all things as well as the lack of TRUTH of the THINGS of GOD in all things...for it is THE SPIRIT who both seeks the HIDDEN THINGS of GOD and it is THE SPIRIT who reveals the HIDDEN THINGS OF GOD...for who can know the THINGS of GOD but THE SPIRIT...

What you are saying lacks one TRUTH...and that is CHRIST...who alone is the FOUNDATION and HEAD of HIS OWN BODY...and those born of HIS SPIRIT are indeed baptized into CHRIST and risen IN CHRIST a NEW CREATION set apart and marked as belonging to GOD in HIS SON...

I don't know what else to tell you but that instead of suggesting the many "ideas" you would be better off reminding ALL that CHRIST SAID beware of "yeast"...

Do you know what "yeast" is?

It is any man-made additions, suggestion, notions, idea, thought added to the PURE BREAD of THE WORD of GOD which is CHRIST...
Any man who adds to THE FOUNDATION (CHRIST) makes manifest that he does not even know what he so strongly professes..

Because, without THE FOUNDATION, then the WHOLE HOUSE falls...

 

[PeterJens]

OK. Then you truly ARE NOT understanding...

You have mixed being born again with being baptised with the Holy Spirit. The indwelling by the Holy Spirit is not a mystical union. You seem to be implying this.

I am not saying this anointing has not happened to all true followers of Jesus and is not part of my life.
What I am saying is this is not a mystical union. You sound like you think this is exactly what has happened.

Am I actually talking to God and not you?

 

[miknik5]

This does not quite work if one side accept our mortality and growth from being sinners into saints to a point where we are totally acceptable to Christ and the other do not.

It is an interesting criticism of saying as an insult "own deeds of righteousness".

How can deeds of righteousness be not good and if they are done by the believer they will always be their "own" not someone elses?

It shows the ethic is how dare you be good people, that is so evil. This is what is wrong behind the process. Good things are good things and evil things are evil things. Shinning the light is shinning the light on all people that good is good and evil is evil separate from faith.

But here is a christian group saying this is not true. Then what is the morality and victory in Christ people are showing that Jesus is talking about? Being defeated in sin but praising the Lord and going to heaven?

What did you think Paul meant when he said, he no longer judged himself, this does not make him innocent, but it is the LORD who will judge..

But Paul also was not aware of any guilt..his conscience was clear...


Are you trying to "help" the saints or are you trying to suggest to the saints that maybe they are sinning?
Don't you understand that the very thing that you are even suggesting is the very thing that Paul said, anyone who suggests this, their own condemnation is deserved?

Who takes the GIFT of GOD'S GRACE as a license to sin?
Do you suggest that those who will NOT profess any of their works are sitting on their laurels and are doing nothing?
Or do you suggest that you are doing more than the least of the saints?
In which case, you do what Job would not do and understood he could NOT do.

You profess yourself...and this has a catch 22 in it sir...because it suggests that you can open your mouth before GOD and "state your case"

What "righteous deed" do you have to remind GOD of that HE might have overlooked?

That is why Job would NOT open his mouth before GOD lest his mouth cause him to sin.

For a man, on that day, to stand before GOD and remind GOD of all his "most righteous works" is a man, not only exalting himself (as if he can sit side by side with GOD and state his case) but he also, whether he knowingly or unknowingly does it, deems his brothers (members of one species) less righteous than himself.

There is NOTHING that we can bring before GOD on that day...for nothing will be exalted above the GIFT OF GOD...which is CHRIST...

 

[miknik5]

You have mixed being born again with being baptised with the Holy Spirit. The indwelling by the Holy Spirit is not a mystical union. You seem to be implying this.

I am not saying this anointing has not happened to all true followers of Jesus and is not part of my life.
What I am saying is this is not a mystical union. You sound like you think this is exactly what has happened.

Am I actually talking to God and not you?

Oh NO I am not.
Why were you "baptized" with the HOLY SPIRIT, sir?
And for what reason were you "baptized" with the HOLY SPIRIT, sir?


Further,if you aren't baptized INTO CHRIST, you won't be baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[PeterJens]

Do you know what "yeast" is?

It is any man-made additions, suggestion, notions, idea, thought added to the PURE BREAD of THE WORD of GOD which is CHRIST...
Any man who adds to THE FOUNDATION (CHRIST) makes manifest that he does not even know what he so strongly professes..
Because, without THE FOUNDATION, then the WHOLE HOUSE falls...

I can use religious language like anyone, but it is expressing relationships, positions, authorities.
I am in Christ, redeemed in the Cross, through faith made one with the Father, a sinner washed clean, Holy, redeemed, made pure and right, my conscience cleansed. My foundation is Christ, my Lord and Saviour.

The problem with this language is it can mean many different things, and people like it as if they are actually agreeing, but are just starting to say they know the ideas and have walked in them. Sounds like you have not yet seen beyond into the real world of language and where people really are.

I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is easy to hide behind such summaries and believe many different versions.

 

[miknik5]

I can use religious language like anyone, but it is expressing relationships, positions, authorities.
I am in Christ, redeemed in the Cross, through faith made one with the Father, a sinner washed clean, Holy, redeemed, made pure and right, my conscience cleansed. My foundation is Christ, my Lord and Saviour.

The problem with this language is it can mean many different things, and people like it as if they are actually agreeing, but are just starting to say they know the ideas and have walked in them. Sounds like you have not yet seen beyond into the real world of language and where people really are.

I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is easy to hide behind such summaries and believe many different versions.

Which is why it is better to preach THE GOSPEL and THE GOSPEL alone...and stop adding suggestions and opinions and ideas and thoughts...

Let the GOSPEL be heard and received as it should be heard and received.
For you can not baptize anyone...into CHRIST...
That work is GOD'S WORK alone.
And no man can either bring on the HOLY SPIRIT or deter the HOLY SPIRIT but GOD....

 

[PeterJens]

Oh NO I am not.
Why were you "baptized" with the HOLY SPIRIT, sir?
And for what reason were you "baptized" with the HOLY SPIRIT, sir?

Further,if you aren't baptized INTO CHRIST, you won't be baptized with the HOLY SPIRIT.

Interesting question? Why were I "baptised" with the Holy Spirit?

I would say I experienced the Lord while glorifying Christ. I still bring praise and glory to Christ. That is the ministry of the Spirit in our lives.

That is what happens. I did not chose it or had a reason. I am sorry if I have upset you. I say something to be provocative. It works for some. In this environment enemies can appear friends and friends enemies. Does this help you?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Who is defeated in sin, peter?
Have I gone out and shot anyone? no.
I've keptt hat commandment.
Ah, but God is holy through and through.
so He demands an even more exacting holiness than just my outside.
I must now also not murder in my heart (anger).
What man can perform heart surgery on himself?
He needs a surgeon to do it.
Who can be that holy to never have anger in their heart? NEVER have anger and resentment in their heart?
NO ONE can be that pure and holy by just making sure that he doesn't shoot anyone.

Jesus spoke of this when He taught on the outside of the cup (not shooting anyone) versus the inside of the cup (not having anger in your heart). He said the outside can be clean but the inside still be filthy. THIS is the perfection God demands. You can try to not ever have anger or resentment toward another but you will eventually fail in it. You have to look to Him to do the inside work unless you find yourself to already be perfect to that exacting degree of perfection.
His holiness requires BOTH.