What has happened to the doctrines of the protestant reformation?

[calvinsx76]

I'm sure you won't understand this. And I am not trying to be flippant...... but, Thank God! It is high time, well past in fact, to lose a lot of that, before we actually lose Christ.

I do appreciate your comments, and I do understand where you are comming from. the movement away from the historical protestant positions really began with John Wesley in the 1700s. his notion of I don't care what your doctrine is as long as you love Christ set forth the tone for the methodist movement, and has shaped Christianity here in the United States.

though I have a tremendous amount of respect for Wesley, the flaw in that statement is the inability of man to truly love God.

I think it's important to understand the historical periods of our church and why we take the positions that we do.

 

[crossnote]

though I haven't attended all modern churches, the predominant view amoung modern writers, evangelical leaders like Joel orsteen, max lucado, John hagen and others don't represent the historical protestant faith. their theology is more Roman catholic than protestant.

Those are TV personalities...not representative of the faithful pastors feeding their sheep.

 

[crossnote]

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Dutch reformed, many American churches have moved away from its historical positions.

So have the Reformed. Face it, most confessional bodies have moved away from their founding documents...some back to Scripture but most towards secular liberalism.

 

[crossnote]

Really? I mean, at least here in Australia, the Lutheran Church is rather straight-laced. Its two major issues (in most churches here) are its almost unanimous support of theistic evolution and almost forgetting that Holy Spirit exists.

Here we have ELCA, heading towards approval of same sex marriage. Give Australia a little more time.

 

[calvinsx76]

Those are TV personalities...not representative of the faithful pastors feeding their sheep.

I agree, and maybe it was a poor choice of candidates, but history is clear on the movement away from the historical biblical understanding by the protestants.

the restoration movement led to the rejection of the articles of faith, and a move away from the doctrines of justification etc...men like Barton stone, Alexander cambell, (church of christ), charlze t Russell (jehovah witnesses)..

the point I'm trying to make is American Christianity has been shaped by a number of the movements of the 1700 and 1800, which didn't produce the scholarship during the period of the reformers.

 

[crossnote]

Most Magesterial Churches were State Churches, a blend of Church and whatever country they were affiliated with.
Hence Germany/Lutherans, England/Anglicans, Holland/Reformed, Italy/Roman Catholic.
These Churches soon devolved into national squabbling as well as doctrinal...hardly the way laid out for us in Scripture.

 

[Willie-T]

We are aware, are we not, that almost every word that came out Jesus' mouth was in stark contrasting contradiction to the solid, good, grounded, foundational historical doctrines the Jews believed and followed so religiously? So much so, that His modern, heretical views finally got them mad enough to murder Him.

 

[crossnote]

I agree, and maybe it was a poor choice of candidates, but history is clear on the movement away from the historical biblical understanding by the protestants.

the restoration movement led to the rejection of the articles of faith, and a move away from the doctrines of justification etc...men like Barton stone, Alexander cambell, (church of christ), charlze t Russell (jehovah witnesses)..

the point I'm trying to make is American Christianity has been shaped by a number of the movements of the 1700 and 1800, which didn't produce the scholarship during the period of the reformers.

There's always been a faithful remnant, even in the Dark Ages. There is always a falling away of some even in the best of movements.

 

[Willie-T]

There's always been a faithful remnant, even in the Dark Ages. There is always a falling away of some even in the best of movements.

Even in my own denomination, some seem to want to honor and celebrate homosexuality, rather than simply lovingly bring the victims of it into Christ's hospital.

 

[calvinsx76]

Most Magesterial Churches were State Churches, a blend of Church and whatever country they were affiliated with.
Hence Germany/Lutherans, England/Anglicans, Holland/Reformed, Italy/Roman Catholic.
These Churches soon devolved into national squabbling as well as doctrinal...hardly the way laid out for us in Scripture.

the Magisterial reformers brought the bible to the people of their lands. remember during that period, the bible was not accessible to the people. Luther publication of the bible into German and William Tyndall publication of the bible into English mark an important role in getting the bible into the hands of common people. this was outlawed by the Church of Rome, and led the death of Tyndall as others as a result.

I am surprised how quick we are to reject the scholarship of the Magisterial reformers but don't recognize they were responsible for bringing the scriptures to their people in their mother tongue.

 

[crossnote]

I agree, and maybe it was a poor choice of candidates, but history is clear on the movement away from the historical biblical understanding by the protestants.

the restoration movement led to the rejection of the articles of faith, and a move away from the doctrines of justification etc...men like Barton stone, Alexander cambell, (church of christ), charlze t Russell (jehovah witnesses)..

the point I'm trying to make is American Christianity has been shaped by a number of the movements of the 1700 and 1800, which didn't produce the scholarship during the period of the reformers.

There also is a bit of elitism in that statement. Peter and the rest of the fishermen disiples were considered ignorant men by the intelligentia of their day but had been perceived to be with Jesus...

Acts 4:13 KJVS
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

 

[Depleted]

the protestant faith seems to have lost its identity. the contributions of John Calvin, Martin luther, Thomas Cranmer, and Augustine seem to have faded away over the last 200 years.

growing up in the Anglican communion, I feel like the protestant churches has lost it sense of history and teachings, and replaced it with a dumb down version of Christianity.

I feel like church leaders of todays need to be reeducated in the faith.

thoughts? what are we really learning at churches today?

Nah, we still know the history, but we're not following history. We're still following God's word.
Google PCA and RP. (Both reformed and presbyterian.) Presby doesn't guaranteed reformed, (PC-USA is barely Christian anymore), but those two denominations still are. We're out here, but we follow Christ, not our historic figures.

 

[crossnote]

the Magisterial reformers brought the bible to the people of their lands. remember during that period, the bible was not accessible to the people. Luther publication of the bible into German and William Tyndall publication of the bible into English mark an important role in getting the bible into the hands of common people. this was outlawed by the Church of Rome, and led the death of Tyndall as others as a result.

I am surprised how quick we are to reject the scholarship of the Magisterial reformers but don't recognize they were responsible for bringing the scriptures to their people in their mother tongue.

The mass distribution of the bible can be linked to the newly invented printing press. Luther made quick work of printing tracts.
We don't reject the teaching of the Reformers, we hold to Sola Scriptura, searching the Scriptures to see if their teachings square with Scripture like any good Berean would.

Acts 17:11 KJVS
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Depleted]

first I would say that the core teachings of protestant churches are no longer taught in the congregations. the teachings of justification, election, original sin, the commandments are not a primary focus. the works of the magisterial reformers are not being used in the congregations.

Yeah? Really? Apparently you've gone to a couple of churches and now think you know "the core teachings of the protestant churches." Good luck with that. Sort of like defining exactly what an American has to be.

 

[Depleted]

By "teaching the commandments", are you referring to the 10 commandments that Moses brought down from Sinai?

And, please clarify "the works of the magisterial reformers" for me.... I'm ignorant of that expression...

The offices -- deacons, pastors, elders, evangelists, stuff like that. Pretty much a denominational expression. Side issue, not gospel.

 

[calvinsx76]

The offices -- deacons, pastors, elders, evangelists, stuff like that. Pretty much a denominational expression. Side issue, not gospel.

the works of the Magisterial reformers refers to their biblical interpretations and their biblical positions against the church of Rome.

Have you actually studied the period and read their works?

 

[crossnote]

the works of the Magisterial reformers refers to their biblical interpretations and their biblical positions against the church of Rome.

Have you actually studied the period and read their works?

I've read plenty of the Reformers works especially from the Lutheran and Reformed side. But what's that prove?
I take what accords to Scripture but spit out the rest. They are not idols.

 

[Depleted]

Sounds like you object to the gospel being taught/exposited. You are looking for history lessons.

Not entirely. "... justification, election, original sin, the commandments are not a primary focus " isn't history. It's an encompassing understanding of the Bible.

 

[Depleted]

again, if you could be more specific as to what you see as "missing"... just a general "it ain't like it used to be" is difficult to discuss...

Now, wait a minute. He is being specific. This is a failure to communicate. What is going on here is the difference a reformed understanding of biblical principles vs. nondenoms/independent churches popping up here and there without the common background understand. Sort of like me trying to tell you what should be for dinner. You know, the important stuff -- hoagies, cheesesteaks wit, ("wit" is not a typo lol), soft pretzels, and scrapple. Then you go getting all southern about that Texas barbeque, beef's for dinner, grits, and chitlin'.

Neither one of us is necessarily wrong about eating, (unless you really do like chitlin', but that's another story lol), but we're coming at food from different angles. Same thing with church doctrine.

I am shocked by the number of people on this board who think salvation is walking the walk with God. No, it's not. That's justification, which happens after salvation. There is an order to salvation that has been lost in both mainstream and independent churches. He's not wrong there, but the problem seems to be we're talking with different cultures, accents, and upbringing so communication isn't happening.

That's two sided. Calvin is talking "normal" for us reformed folk. It's some aren't into reformed and most have absolutely no idea what reformed even means to get down to the nitty gritty.

You and I can talk food together, but we first need to recognize our idea of food isn't the other person's idea of food. We can even eat together, but we'd have to be open enough to understand both scrapple and chitlin (and heaven help us all on that chitlin thing, cuz I don't get why anyone wants to eat it lol) is food to the other person. Only after getting that far, can we eat together.

Likewise, Calvin IS talking normal. It's just the backgrounds are so different and some of the words are so different, many don't know we really do agree on the same things.

 

[breno785au]

I sense a Protestant Reformation Movement on the horizon lol

Ooo, or how about Protestant Reformationism.