What has happened to the doctrines of the protestant reformation?

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Magisterial Reformation is characterized by an emphasis on the authority of a teacher.
The OP seems to be looking for authority in men when it is the authority of Christ we seek.
No, he's not. There is logic to what he's saying, but you just leaped into "he's got to be wrong" simply because you have yet to understand what he's saying.

Think of it this way. Have you ever chosen to take a course in school? (Chosen, vs. being forced to take the course because it's the curriculum you need to graduate.) How much did you look into the background of the teacher, or did you just assume all teachers have no authority because only Christ does? I never looked into the background of teachers to see if they were qualified to teach, simply because that school they were teaching in looked into their qualifications and wouldn't hire them, if they weren't qualified.

Same deal we reformers do. We don't need to check out the creds on our teachers, because we know what they had to do to pass to become a teacher. (And, to us, the teacher is the one who does the sermons. Pastors are something else.) You don't get to become a teacher unless you pass the classes, then get the degree (and we're talking Master's degree minimum), and THEN you have to answer questions publically in a crowded church full of other teachers and elders about first what you know, and then more important, what you believe. The what you believe part tells the examiners if you can ever teach in our churches. Because you HAVE to believe in the God of the Bible, the trinity, that Jesus is the only Savior, that God chooses "whosoever will believe" and everything down the list of true, important doctrine. They may ask you if you believe in deaconess too, but that answer doesn't matter other than if you're being truthful. (Meh, my denomination can't seem to agree on deaconess, so some churches have them and others don't. Same thing with tongues. But that's not the doctrine that has to be agreed on. That's just the fun stuff to endlessly debate on. lol)

We had a Baptist go for the challenge of passing the qualification test once. In a Presbyterian church, this is like having a Roman Catholic going for the qualification. There's enough wiggle room that yes, he could make it through that qualification, but also there are issues that he'd have to go against his denomination in belief (not just thought, but truly believing it) where no one knew if he would be willing to give up his long-held belief. (A long time ago, so vague memory on this story. But whatever doctrine it was, it was sort of like asking someone who believes that homosexuals can be teachers, and everyone thought he'd have to agree they could. It wasn't homosexuals, but I can't remember what it was.) To everyone's amazement, he did denounce his Baptist upbringing and did tell the teachers he believed as they did. The only man in decades who got through that examination process by LYING! Within two years, he decided his particular church would accept that not-in-our-denom doctrine. And within two years and one month, he was no longer a teacher. Not even a member.

He's the only one in modern times to pass that examination by lying. We are THAT strict on who becomes our teachers, so I don't have to worry any given Sunday if the guy teaching me God's word has a clue on God's word. They have to understand it, or they aren't teachers. AND they have to believe it! THAT's what "magisterial reformers" means to those of us in reformed circles.

Not that they have equal authority with Christ. That they know enough and trust enough to give their lives to THAT authority in Christ.

Try not to go with knee-jerk reaction when coming up with new concepts. It really is all about Calvinsx is talking in words most of us don't clearly understand.

And, I don't clearly understand either, because he's from the Anglican side of reformed, and I'm more from the German/Dutch side. Same family, but we moved away so long ago we don't even use the same language anymore.
 
We discuss them aplenty on this forum.
No we don't. People argue from ignorance aplenty. I rarely go on those threads simply because I don't know how to explain what it really means to kids who don't even want to understand the language first. It is a different language, and most on here are into "My church is great" without ever getting to the point of seeing what the differences are.

I've brought up "justification is not salvation" often on here. I feel like I write it in Inuit, because absolutely no one ever gets what I mean (unless they already learned it) nor do they bother trying to learn what I mean. BUT they keep right on assuming "salvation is justification" and argue "works vs. grace" ad nauseum.

I got the message loud and clear long ago. "Don't go off and try to tell us something we didn't learn from osmosis."

Calvinsx hasn't been here long enough to get the message, but the message is being preached to him loud and clear on this thread, and I'm still only on Page One.

There is no discussion on here. There is knee-jerk reaction! And heaven forbid if the newbie doesn't know what he's supposed to agree with immediately!
 
Now, wait a minute. He is being specific. This is a failure to communicate. What is going on here is the difference a reformed understanding of biblical principles vs. nondenoms/independent churches popping up here and there without the common background understand. Sort of like me trying to tell you what should be for dinner. You know, the important stuff -- hoagies, cheesesteaks wit, ("wit" is not a typo lol), soft pretzels, and scrapple. Then you go getting all southern about that Texas barbeque, beef's for dinner, grits, and chitlin'.

Neither one of us is necessarily wrong about eating, (unless you really do like chitlin', but that's another story lol), but we're coming at food from different angles. Same thing with church doctrine.

I am shocked by the number of people on this board who think salvation is walking the walk with God. No, it's not. That's justification, which happens after salvation. There is an order to salvation that has been lost in both mainstream and independent churches. He's not wrong there, but the problem seems to be we're talking with different cultures, accents, and upbringing so communication isn't happening.

That's two sided. Calvin is talking "normal" for us reformed folk. It's some aren't into reformed and most have absolutely no idea what reformed even means to get down to the nitty gritty.

You and I can talk food together, but we first need to recognize our idea of food isn't the other person's idea of food. We can even eat together, but we'd have to be open enough to understand both scrapple and chitlin (and heaven help us all on that chitlin thing, cuz I don't get why anyone wants to eat it lol) is food to the other person. Only after getting that far, can we eat together.

Likewise, Calvin IS talking normal. It's just the backgrounds are so different and some of the words are so different, many don't know we really do agree on the same things.

I'm not so sure. I think a large percentage of people in what you are calling "non-denominational" or "Independent" churches spent quite a bit of their lives as members of the Frozen Chosen brand of historically repetitive religion, practicing and perfecting the rules their ancestors had also perfected, and believing just as much as they had, that such was actually what Christ taught.
 
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just to clarify, I am not elevating the authority of the reformers, but stating I support the positions of the magisterial reformers, which I agree to be biblical.

my point of this discussion is to discuss falling away of these churches from their historical beliefs..
Hey, since you seem educated in the history, got a question for you -- why are you worried about historical beliefs instead of the historic beliefs?
 
Perhaps but most Reformed, Lutheran and Anglican/Episcopals have strayed way further from Scripture than most Evangelicals.
I'm disappointed. I assumed most would be playing the vague-retort game, but didn't think you'd join in.
 
They are taught in Dutch reformed churches. They hear the 10 commandments every week.
Really? Wow! The Dutch Reformed got away from Reformed then too. I didn't know. (Again, distant family and haven't kept up with that branch in the family tree, because we branched off centuries ago.)
 
though I haven't attended all modern churches, the predominant view amoung modern writers, evangelical leaders like Joel orsteen, max lucado, John hagen and others don't represent the historical protestant faith. their theology is more Roman catholic than protestant.
That's it, huh? You pick what you think the rest of the church is like by a Best-Seller's list? Can't say much for your reading choices.
 
No we don't. People argue from ignorance aplenty. I rarely go on those threads simply because I don't know how to explain what it really means to kids who don't even want to understand the language first. It is a different language, and most on here are into "My church is great" without ever getting to the point of seeing what the differences are.

I've brought up "justification is not salvation" often on here. I feel like I write it in Inuit, because absolutely no one ever gets what I mean (unless they already learned it) nor do they bother trying to learn what I mean. BUT they keep right on assuming "salvation is justification" and argue "works vs. grace" ad nauseum.

I got the message loud and clear long ago. "Don't go off and try to tell us something we didn't learn from osmosis."

Calvinsx hasn't been here long enough to get the message, but the message is being preached to him loud and clear on this thread, and I'm still only on Page One.

There is no discussion on here. There is knee-jerk reaction! And heaven forbid if the newbie doesn't know what he's supposed to agree with immediately!
He came out of the shoot with plenty of false assumptions about us. I have had plenty of discussions reflective of the Reformation here on CC. I will even express some of them when deemed necessary.
 
what modern church leaders do you feel represent the historical protestant positions?
At this point, I'm smelling a bad odor.

First, I would think you'd know the difference between historic and historical. Second, if you were truly reformed, historic figures (or historical scenes) wouldn't interest you. Third, you'd be talking important stuff versus all this vague baiting.

Have we met before? Did you try a different approach the last time you came on here -- pretending you were into mysticism?
 
I'm disappointed. I assumed most would be playing the vague-retort game, but didn't think you'd join in.
Yes, that's me. A vague retort is necessary when in a hurry but still want to make a point.
How 'bout you? You still hanging out the dirty laundry of others?
 
No we don't. People argue from ignorance aplenty. I rarely go on those threads simply because I don't know how to explain what it really means to kids who don't even want to understand the language first. It is a different language, and most on here are into "My church is great" without ever getting to the point of seeing what the differences are.

I've brought up "justification is not salvation" often on here. I feel like I write it in Inuit, because absolutely no one ever gets what I mean (unless they already learned it) nor do they bother trying to learn what I mean. BUT they keep right on assuming "salvation is justification" and argue "works vs. grace" ad nauseum.

I got the message loud and clear long ago. "Don't go off and try to tell us something we didn't learn from osmosis."

Calvinsx hasn't been here long enough to get the message, but the message is being preached to him loud and clear on this thread, and I'm still only on Page One.

There is no discussion on here. There is knee-jerk reaction! And heaven forbid if the newbie doesn't know what he's supposed to agree with immediately!

Perhaps too many of us have gotten used to explaining things by repeating "terms" instead of using the words the terms are supposed to stand for.
 
Really? I mean, at least here in Australia, the Lutheran Church is rather straight-laced. Its two major issues (in most churches here) are its almost unanimous support of theistic evolution and almost forgetting that Holy Spirit exists.
TinTin, I like you a lot, consider you a brother, and also consider you the most knowledgeable on creationism, however that those are the two main subjects in your denomination isn't really a ringing endorsement for the denomination. What happened to teaching the whole Bible?
 
I don't say I agree with the men you mentioned, but how carefully could you have studied what they believe if you got two of their three names wrong? Seriously. That doesn't show much depth to your investigations.
Willie? Just checking here, but does this feel like we met this person before? Remember the big debate over if the person was a troll? You liked him anyway. I was more for does it matter if he is a troll. And then at the end, he came out of his acting role and laughed that we were easily fooled, right before he was banned. Is it just me, or do you get a sense he is back in a new role?
 
Here we have ELCA, heading towards approval of same sex marriage. Give Australia a little more time.
I'm not Lutheran, so I don't keep up, but aren't they a lot like Prebys and Baptists in that they cross the spectrum in beliefs? Sure some groups went all the way to secularism, but there are still reformed too. I'm not sure. Sounds like you might know.
 
Willie? Just checking here, but does this feel like we met this person before? Remember the big debate over if the person was a troll? You liked him anyway. I was more for does it matter if he is a troll. And then at the end, he came out of his acting role and laughed that we were easily fooled, right before he was banned. Is it just me, or do you get a sense he is back in a new role?

Who knows? But if he is the same troll, he has still raised a fairly valid point, no matter what his intent or agenda, I think we can evaluate what is on the plate, and have a good conversation about it.
 
Silly Calvinist grace is for all mankind.

Preach the bible. Tell every man that he is a sinner and unless he is born again he will perish in his sins. His sins will separate him from God and he will spend eternity in the lake of fire created for the devil and his angels.

Preach that Jesus saves all who come to Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
I've read plenty of the Reformers works especially from the Lutheran and Reformed side. But what's that prove?
I take what accords to Scripture but spit out the rest. They are not idols.
What crossnote said!

(Well, more "some" than plenty. Reformed teachers tend to make even me think, "Boy, he's long winded!")
 
I'm not so sure. I think a large percentage of people in what you are calling "non-denominational" or "Independent" churches spent quite a bit of their lives as members of the Frozen Chosen brand of historically repetitive religion, practicing and perfecting the rules their ancestors had also perfected, and believing just as much as they had, that such was actually what Christ taught.
I wouldn't know. I have no idea what "The Frozen Chosen" means past the obvious snub of a some denomination.
 
I'm not Lutheran, so I don't keep up, but aren't they a lot like Prebys and Baptists in that they cross the spectrum in beliefs? Sure some groups went all the way to secularism, but there are still reformed too. I'm not sure. Sounds like you might know.
Sure, the Lutherans for example are all over the board. ELCA in particular have departed more than most from their distinctives...the Book of Concord. LCMS still has some semblance to it.
Presbyterians, Baptists, etc., still same story...slide, slide, slide.