Lordship Salvation is false teaching

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A

Ariel82

Guest
Yep...doesn't prove that he isn't setting up strawmen or misunderstanding the opposing sides position.

You do know no matter how often you post Romans 5 it's not going to change.

Anyway, I will leave you to your burning strawmen and the belief that believers don't need to be disciples of Christ.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
Yep...doesn't prove that he isn't setting up strawmen or misunderstanding the opposing sides position.

You do know no matter how often you post Romans 5 it's not going to change.

Anyway, I will leave you to your burning strawmen and the belief that believers don't need to be disciples of Christ.
Hyper grace's concept of discipleship is to believe in a grace in which there are no rules, and to fully awaken to one's divine nature by focusing on that identity.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Hyper grace's concept of discipleship is to believe in a grace in which there are no rules, and to fully awaken to one's divine nature by focusing on that identity.

More nonsense....it doesn't matter how many times you distort the truth - the truth still remains the same as grace believers do believe in obedience.

Focusing on Christ is also seeing what Christ did for us. We do not live in a vacuum from Christ. He is one with us in our spirit now.

I know this union with Christ is a complete mystery to you. You have told me that you don't believe we are born again until we get a new body and Jesus said "Unless you are born again - you cannot "see" the kingdom of God". This is why the identity of the true believer in Christ is foolishness to your natural mind.

Obedience to me is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God and the life of Christ manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.

It is not necessarily something "we do to be" but stems from something we "already are now" in Him and so we "do love".

We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules that we follow, but a natural flow of the life of God in us built on a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.

When our minds are renewed to the truth that is in Christ - we obey from our hearts effortlessly. It's a fruit of being in Christ.

I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us.

Teach and preach who believers are in Christ and they will "awake to righteousness" that is in them because they are a new creation in Him and sin not and walk in the good works that God has prepared for them.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
Explain how Abraham would have been saved if he hadn't obeyed GOD's command of circumcision.
Explain how the it is that if the LORD's word is from everlasting to everlasting, why was the circumcision introduced to Ishmael at the age of 13 and not at the age to those of his seed who followed. Could not God get ahold of him, or did God just not think about it?

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham." John 8:40

Seems Jesus is pretty specific, so you don't see any potential issue regarding the circumcision especially considering being made an heir to receive the promise that Abraham would receive?
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
You did really well until you wrote the below statement...

Bottom line.....
If you are trusting in your own righteous works of obedience as "evidence" that you are saved, the bible says you are either lost or deceived!
(Matt. 10:10-13, Romans 10:1-5, Galatians 3)
To Biblically show how the doctrine in that last statement is different, all I need do is quote God's Word about the five foolish virgins that Jesus will close the door upon, the unprofitable servant that will be cast to the outer darkness along with the wicked when Jesus comes, and the warning our Lord Jesus gave about knowing The Father's will, but did not do it and thus will be beaten with many stripes.

God's Salvation by Faith on His Son's Blood shed upon the cross is... a free gift, and cannot be earned by works. But indeed by our works is how we are identified. Don't you remember Jesus said wherever your treasure is, that's where your heart will be? That's why wrongly thinking we can sin no more after having believed on Jesus is very dangerous. He told us to repent to Him when that happens. The Devil says not to. I choose to listen to my Lord Jesus.
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
It amazes me how people can continually day after day ignore clear scripture from the word of God. The only reason I continue to post scripture is the hope that someone might actually read it. You cannot read Romans 3-5 and come away from it without recognizing the truth that Gods grace comes unconditionally and that is the only way it can be accepted. When we in our minds have attached any reformation as necessary to "prove we have believed" or show "evidence of salvation", that is an indication someone has believed a false gospel. It is not possible to determine what someone else believes, all we can do is show the truth from Gods word and let them decide what they have believed.

People have blinded themselves because they listen to false teachers and cannot recognize the God of grace. No matter how you slice it, whether our dependence is on our reformation before or after salvation, the end result is the same. Trust in self. I challenge anyone to stop listening to their usual LS teachers for however long it takes to go through this study on Galatians and see if you finish it with the same understanding you had going in. What have you got to lose?

Galatians, part 1 | SermonAudio.com
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
You did really well until you wrote the below statement...



To Biblically show how the doctrine in that last statement is different, all I need do is quote God's Word about the five foolish virgins that Jesus will close the door upon, the unprofitable servant that will be cast to the outer darkness along with the wicked when Jesus comes, and the warning our Lord Jesus gave about knowing The Father's will, but did not do it and thus will be beaten with many stripes.

God's Salvation by Faith on His Son's Blood shed upon the cross is... a free gift, and cannot be earned by works. But indeed by our works is how we are identified. Don't you remember Jesus said wherever your treasure is, that's where your heart will be? That's why wrongly thinking we can sin no more after having believed on Jesus is very dangerous. He told us to repent to Him when that happens. The Devil says not to. I choose to listen to my Lord Jesus.
Well do you think your understanding might change some when you recognize that the 10 virgins parable is about Israel during the tribulation? Maybe study on it some.
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
[h=1]2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)[/h] [SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


If we try to connect the Church with promises made to Israel (which has been placed on hold), we get all messed up in what we believe. We are in the "Age of Grace", the rapture is coming by which the Church will be removed from the earth. At that point God will resume with the nation of Israel during the tribulation. This is when the "ten virgins" parable is referring to.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
It amazes me how people can continually day after day ignore clear scripture from the word of God. The only reason I continue to post scripture is the hope that someone might actually read it. You cannot read Romans 3-5 and come away from it without recognizing the truth that Gods grace comes unconditionally and that is the only way it can be accepted. When we in our minds have attached any reformation as necessary to "prove we have believed" or show "evidence of salvation", that is an indication someone has believed a false gospel. It is not possible to determine what someone else believes, all we can do is show the truth from Gods word and let them decide what they have believed.

People have blinded themselves because they listen to false teachers and cannot recognize the God of grace. No matter how you slice it, whether our dependence is on our reformation before or after salvation, the end result is the same. Trust in self. I challenge anyone to stop listening to their usual LS teachers for however long it takes to go through this study on Galatians and see if you finish it with the same understanding you had going in. What have you got to lose?

Galatians, part 1 | SermonAudio.com
I agree, but I would also put forth the same challenge to the hyper grace teachers as well :)
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
I agree, but I would also put forth the same challenge to the hyper grace teachers as well :)
I have listened to all different teachers and I compared what they teach with what the bible teaches. I'm not sure what your definition of "hyper grace" is, but I assure you the teaching from that series in Galatians is line by line truth of the word of God. If you think you find something false in any part of it, bring it to my attention. The truth is in Gods word, but it MUST be understood the way it was meant to be, not the way people want to read it.

Galatians, part 1 | SermonAudio.com
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
I have listened to all different teachers and I compared what they teach with what the bible teaches. I'm not sure what your definition of "hyper grace" is, but I assure you the teaching from that series in Galatians is line by line truth of the word of God. If you think you find something false in any part of it, bring it to my attention. The truth is in Gods word, but it MUST be understood the way it was meant to be, not the way people want to read it.

Galatians, part 1 | SermonAudio.com
I have listened to a few of these are they are good teaching on the grace of God.

The teaching of the forgiveness of sins in Christ can be a stumbling block to our religious upbringing as well as being saved by grace through faith in Christ's finished/completed work. For those that do not believe in healing - this will throw people off....for those that don't believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today - this will throw people off as well. The teaching about the Lordship is another one in the same boat.

 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
Well do you think your understanding might change some when you recognize that the 10 virgins parable is about Israel during the tribulation? Maybe study on it some.
It's about 'believers' on Jesus, that's who it's about, and that includes the Gentile believer also.

Even though the idea of a spiritual virgin vs. a spiritual harlot was an idea God first used in the OT for the rebelliousness of the nations and of His chosen, Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus applied it to those who believe on Him also:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for
I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV


So maybe you ought to go back and study more about that chaste virgin and harlotry concept in the spiritual sense.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
When we in our minds have attached any reformation as necessary to "prove we have believed" or show "evidence of salvation", that is an indication someone has believed a false gospel. It is not possible to determine what someone else believes, all we can do is show the truth from Gods word and let them decide what they have believed.
You're actually just twisting ideas so as to drum up support for your hyper-grace theory from men. Those in Christ don't have works in order to be saved, nor any such idea like that. Those in Christ are to have works because we are commanded by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles to do so. And what did He say about identifying the enemy using what? Didn't He say, "By their fruits ye shall know them"?

No true Christian should be able to read the below Scripture and not feel the need to do some introspection of their self and deeds...

Matt 7:14-23
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
You're actually just twisting ideas so as to drum up support for your hyper-grace theory from men. Those in Christ don't have works in order to be saved, nor any such idea like that. Those in Christ are to have works because we are commanded by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles to do so. And what did He say about identifying the enemy using what? Didn't He say, "By their fruits ye shall know them"?

No true Christian should be able to read the below Scripture and not feel the need to do some introspection of their self and deeds...

Matt 7:14-23
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
"Those in Christ don't have works in order to be saved, nor any such idea like that. Those in Christ are to have works because we are commanded by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles to do so."

[h=1]Romans 4:12-13 (KJV)[/h] [SUP]12 [/SUP]And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.



There are NO requirements other than faith in the gospel of Christ in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. You, just as many others, are confused in your understanding of scripture. It's likely going to stay that way until you humble yourself and seek Gods truth instead of mans. I pray that you will. It just takes asking Him to show you and opening your bible and studying with an open mind instead of having your own perception going in. It must be understood by revelation of the Spirit. The gospel of John is an excellent place to start.

As far as your Matthew 7 scripture goes, check this out....

[h=1]Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV)[/h] 61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.



The tree that God plants can't bring evil fruit! This truth is also supported in 1 John 3:9. When we have been "born of God" or spirit is incapable of sin. Our sin is only of the flesh, which will not enter the Kingdom of heaven, only our glorified bodies will. (1 Cor. 15)
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
The tree that God plants can't bring evil fruit! This truth is also supported in 1 John 3:9. When we have been "born of God" our spirit is incapable of sin. Our sin is only of the flesh, which will not enter the Kingdom of heaven, only our glorified bodies will. (1 Cor. 15)
If anyone has ever wondered what gnosticism looks like, this is it. Spirit is pure, can't sin. Only the flesh sins, but irrelevant because it can't enter heaven anyways. Compare:

Against Heresies

2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
It happens to be from scripture, so call it what you like.
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,085
1,788
113
This may be true of some people but I have never heard anyone say this. In fact people that believe in the gospel of Christ are quick to say that we are saved unto good works.

It's the complete opposite of what you described above. Where the "conflict" arises is from the nature and origin of the work - self-effort or from the life of Christ.

Outwardly they look the same. Abraham tried to "do the will" of God in his won self-effort and created an Ishmael.
God doesn't recognize our own efforts in the flesh even when trying to fulfill the words of God.

God told Abraham "Take your son, your only son...

Resting in the Lord is not a passive, lazy existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need in Christ and we access His wisdom, provision, strength, and protection by faith
, we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active lifestyle.

Rest is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in the good works that God had planned for us all along.

Resting in Christ is our warfare....resting in Christ is our obedience to the faith......resting in Christ is our faith in action...




Amen...
Resting In CHRIST Is our faith In action.
Glory to GOD.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
It happens to be from scripture, so call it what you like.
When people don't even believe Christians are born-again until they get a new body - how do you expect them to understand spiritual things? Unfortunately that is what you are dealing with here with this gnostic foolishness. He has been told by numerous people that gnostics beliefs have nothing in common whatsoever with the new birth in Christ.

Everything that is "spiritual" in nature will be called gnostic by him. If a person can't see the new birth in Christ - he is blind. Jesus said "Unless you be born again you cannot see the kingdom of God".

The new creation in Christ is a complete mystery to people that don't even believe in being born again spiritually and that to be born again you have to wait until you get a new body in the resurrection.

That's the mindset you are dealing with here. The natural mind of man cannot see the things of the Spirit of God - for they are foolishness to him , Paul said in 2 Corinthians 2:14

Gnostics had absolutely nothing to do with Christ being in them.

What the Gnostics believed was that matter was evil and spirit was good. Since matter was evil Christ could not have really been incarnate in a human body, that He only appeared to be in human form and only appeared to suffer.

IOW they denied Jesus humanity and claimed that it was all an illusion. Which John refutes in 1 John. Ironically this led them to the conclusion that sin was also an illusion. I'm sure you can guess where that led them.

Attempts to link Gnosticism to modern day grace believers is simply ridiculous. If anything we are the ones refuting Gnosticism by explaining to those that it is Gnosticism that John is arguing against in 1 John.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
Originally Posted by Grace777x70

This may be true of some people but I have never heard anyone say this. In fact people that believe in the gospel of Christ are quick to say that we are saved unto good works.

It's the complete opposite of what you described above. Where the "conflict" arises is from the nature and origin of the work - self-effort or from the life of Christ.

Outwardly they look the same. Abraham tried to "do the will" of God in his won self-effort and created an Ishmael.
God doesn't recognize our own efforts in the flesh even when trying to fulfill the words of God.

God told Abraham "Take your son, your only son...

Resting in the Lord is not a passive, lazy existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need in Christ and we access His wisdom, provision, strength, and protection by faith
, we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active lifestyle.

Rest is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in the good works that God had planned for us all along.

Resting in Christ is our warfare....resting in Christ is our obedience to the faith......resting in Christ is our faith in action...





Amen...
Resting In CHRIST Is our faith In action.
Glory to GOD.

I amen your amen!

To a works-based mindset - this is all foolishness and yet, it's the very thing that the Lord told us not to be in unbelief about in Hebrews 4. - we are to cease from our own labors as God did from His.

Hebrews 4:9-11 (NASB)

[SUP]9 [/SUP] So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. ( Greek word means = unbelief )
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
Here is a good explanation of the error of this teaching. I will give the conclusion here but the article is very much worth the read to understand what this (LS) is all about.

Conclusion
My commitment to Jesus Christ does not save me. CHRIST SAVES ME BY HIS GRACE. My surrender to His Lordship does not save me. CHRIST SAVES ME BY HIS GRACE. My obedience to His Word does not save me. CHRIST SAVES ME BY HIS GRACE. My love for the Saviour does not save me. CHRIST SAVES ME BY HIS GRACE. My ability to fulfill all the demands of discipleship does not save me. CHRIST SAVES ME BY HIS GRACE. My behavior and conduct does not save me. CHRIST SAVES ME BY HIS GRACE.

God’s saving grace is to be found in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ: "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" (1 John 5:12).

Have you been justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus? Is your hope based upon what you have done or is your hope based upon Jesus’ blood and righteousness? "I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but WHOLLY LEAN ON JESUS’ NAME!" May we be standing fully on Christ the solid Rock, not upon the sinking sand of our own fragile commitment.



Lordship Salvation, Chapter 9