Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

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B

BeyondET

Guest
#41
Well I wrote that much because I didn't want for anyone to say that I constructed my arguments on 'wind', but on the wors of God! :D
on a side note if you think people won't construct a argument about a statement you make that would be a mistake no matter how long it is. Since man has walked on earth that has been the case what did Adam say about Eve after they both dined on the tree.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#42
I will make it easy.

Salvation can not be earned, It can only be given (by grace)

thus, Since it can ot be earned, it can never be lost. If it could be lost, then it had to be earned to begin with, and was never a grace gift. God lied. and we are all sitting her today following a God who is a liar, and does not keep his word
 
T

Tessy

Guest
#43
In Romans we are told that by one man's( Adam) disobedience many were made sinners. Then it says by one man's ( Jesus )obedience many are made righteous. It also says in Romans that what the Last Adam ( Jesus ) did was MUCH MORE than the first Adam. There is not one single solitary thing a man can do ON HIS OWN to no longer be under Adam. Nothing. He is born that way! Only Jesus can take you out of that system. How can a person do anything to lose his place under the last Adam? HE CANNOT and to say he CAN makes the first Adam's work greater. poppycock! The Lord Jesus did a perfect work and it cannot be undone by some boneheaded thing we do or do not do once we are saved.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#44
Pssst, this website has a search function, I will make a random guess and say you will find 117 threads on this topic if you search for loose salvation
 
B

BuMiRo

Guest
#45
Grace reigns or rules in righteousness and we are saved by grace through faith when we received Christ. We have Christ's righteousness now because we are in Him and thus we have His grace as well.

Romans 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Have been saved - is in the perfect tense and passive voice

Perfect tense means that it was an event that happened in the past and it's full effect is ongoing in the present continuously happening - (In other words it's a sealed and done deal)

Passive = means that something happened to you - you did not do it



[FONT=&quot]Philippians 2:12 :"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
What does it mean to 'work
out'=[/FONT]
Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
So you have to work for it, and only at the end of your work you receive payment (salvation). We all are/were employees. :)

And the verses from Ephesians 2:8-9 :
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[TD="class: v en"]Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:[TABLE="width: 468"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vn"][/TD]
[TD="class: v en"]For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them."
In this translation I read "you have salvation"now or in future. You can say both. And in verse 8 with your translation you can say " by grace you have been saved through faith" as in God already sealed this through Christ, as in a promise "you have been saved through Jesus Christ" and I will not take this away ever, if you remain with me. Maybe this is a little bit forced but what is your opinion about verses from 1 Peter 1:4-9 ? and Romans 8:23-24?

I hope I don't upset you with anything. It's just my way of finding the truth. I am waiting for your reply! With sincere and respect, Miriam.



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FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#46
Anyone who says we can lose our salvation doesn't really understand what occurs when one is saved. The dead spirit we all inherited from adam is made alive and combined with the spirit of Jesus. That can never, ever be undone. We are sealed with a promise and redeemed. There are so many verses and in fact the whole gospel of Jesus given to paul to support this but sadly none are so blind as they who refuse to see.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#47

Philippians 2:12 :"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
What does it mean to 'work
out'=
Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
So you have to work for it, and only at the end of your work you receive payment (salvation). We all are/were employees. :)

And the verses from Ephesians 2:8-9 :
[TABLE="width: 468"]
[TR]
[TD="class: v en"]Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:[TABLE="width: 468"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vn"][/TD]
[TD="class: v en"]For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them."
In this translation I read "you have salvation"now or in future. You can say both. And in verse 8 with your translation you can say " by grace you have been saved through faith" as in God already sealed this through Christ, as in a promise "you have been saved through Jesus Christ" and I will not take this away ever, if you remain with me. Maybe this is a little bit forced but what is your opinion about verses from 1 Peter 1:4-9 ? and Romans 8:23-24?

I hope I don't upset you with anything. It's just my way of finding the truth. I am waiting for your reply! With sincere and respect, Miriam.

[/TD]
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Work out in the Greek just means to "bring about" ...it is not something you do to earn it. We don't earn salvation by what we do - we receive it by grace through faith just like Paul said in Eph 2:8-9.

Whenever we quote Phil 2:12 we need to go further on in the next verse as it shows how this is being done.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

It is God inside of us that is working out what is already in us because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. He gives us both the "will" and the "to work" part. He gives us the capability.

We can rest in Him and trust Him to lead us in this great salvation that is ours in Christ.
 
B

BuMiRo

Guest
#48
In Romans we are told that by one man's( Adam) disobedience many were made sinners. Then it says by one man's ( Jesus )obedience many are made righteous. It also says in Romans that what the Last Adam ( Jesus ) did was MUCH MORE than the first Adam. There is not one single solitary thing a man can do ON HIS OWN to no longer be under Adam. Nothing. He is born that way! Only Jesus can take you out of that system. How can a person do anything to lose his place under the last Adam? HE CANNOT and to say he CAN makes the first Adam's work greater. poppycock! The Lord Jesus did a perfect work and it cannot be undone by some boneheaded thing we do or do not do once we are saved.

You are saying right. That is written in Romans. But nowhere says you can do whatever you want to do. Romans 5: 20-21: "And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace:That, as sin had power in death, so grace might have power through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:1: "What may we say, then? are we to go on in sin so that there may be more grace?"

Of course we can fail sometimes, but by mistake not with knowledge, like premeditated, because we are humans and we have what Paul says in Romans 7 'there is a law within me that fights the law received by my mind.' this was a paraphrase


 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#49
You are saying right. That is written in Romans. But nowhere says you can do whatever you want to do. Romans 5: 20-21: "And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace:That, as sin had power in death, so grace might have power through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:1: "What may we say, then? are we to go on in sin so that there may be more grace?"



Of course we can fail sometimes, but by mistake not with knowledge, like premeditated, because we are humans and we have what Paul says in Romans 7 'there is a law within me that fights the law received by my mind.' this was a paraphrase


The Word says we await our Savior FROM Heaven. Phillipians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Since we know there is no sin in Heaven then this means in a spiritual sense we no longer sin. We may "think" we sin, it might "feel" like we sin but God says otherwise. I have found when God says one thing and I think or feel something different one of us is wrong. Hint, it isn't God. Knowing who you really are in Christ is the most important thing you will ever learn. It is all throughout the gospel Jesus gave paul, most especially in Romans 6,7 and 8. I would also suggest that if you don't have faith that Jesus has indeed saved you then you may not be saved. I pray your eyes will be opened to His truth before it's too late. I will leave you with what is one of my favorite verses 1 John 4:17 [FONT=&quot]Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Think about what that is saying and pray.[/FONT]
 
B

BuMiRo

Guest
#50
Work out in the Greek just means to "bring about" ...it is not something you do to earn it. We don't earn salvation by what we do - we receive it by grace through faith just like Paul said in Eph 2:8-9.

Whenever we quote Phil 2:12 we need to go further on in the next verse as it shows how this is being done.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

It is God inside of us that is working out what is already in us because we are in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. He gives us both the "will" and the "to work" part. He gives us the capability.

We can rest in Him and trust Him to lead us in this great salvation that is ours in Christ.

Hmm nicely put. But in Philippians 2:13 of course God gives you the will/desire to do something good, and in my language 'work' is defined by accomplishment, and through His power you finish that work. Yes and that is so, because you cannot without Him do anything to accomplishment, maybe you can, but not that perfect. If you just say what you said that means we don't have free will, and everything is manipulated by God. But I have seen in my life, that if I don't do my part of work God cannot force me. What I mean by 'my work' is "a work done through Him but willingly'. Like preparing for an exam. You can pray all you want, if you don't study He cannot do magic, He can but He chooses not to. Some people experienced this but only if they couldn't learn by objective reasons, and once in a lifetime. So you have to learn, to do your part of deal. What you say is rather sad. We are not puppets, God's love gave us chances to choose. :)

In other words He gives you the will and desire, because He puts good deeds in you, but you have to engage. And He finishes the 'deeds' but only if you do your part.

You haven't reply to my other question. Thank you for your ideas :)
I am waiting. :D
 
B

BuMiRo

Guest
#51
You are saying right. That is written in Romans. But nowhere says you can do whatever you want to do. Romans 5: 20-21: "And the law came in addition, to make wrongdoing worse; but where there was much sin, there was much more grace:That, as sin had power in death, so grace might have power through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:1: "What may we say, then? are we to go on in sin so that there may be more grace?"



Of course we can fail sometimes, but by mistake not with knowledge, like premeditated, because we are humans and we have what Paul says in Romans 7 'there is a law within me that fights the law received by my mind.' this was a paraphrase


The Word says we await our Savior FROM Heaven. Phillipians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Since we know there is no sin in Heaven then this means in a spiritual sense we no longer sin. We may "think" we sin, it might "feel" like we sin but God says otherwise. I have found when God says one thing and I think or feel something different one of us is wrong. Hint, it isn't God. Knowing who you really are in Christ is the most important thing you will ever learn. It is all throughout the gospel Jesus gave paul, most especially in Romans 6,7 and 8. I would also suggest that if you don't have faith that Jesus has indeed saved you then you may not be saved. I pray your eyes will be opened to His truth before it's too late. I will leave you with what is one of my favorite verses 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Think about what that is saying and pray.
Hello! Thank you very much for your prayers. Well I believe that I am forgiven I have said it in my text, past, present, future sins. I am saved if I remain on the path. What meaning do you have for 1 PEter 1:4-9 and Romans 8-23-25? Of course I think I have been saved, but the actual salvation is afterlife. It's very nicely put that "spiritual sense" but salvation in my language "mantuire" as in salvation of the soul an body forever, means more than saving( in my language (salvare/rascumparare) as in saving from sins, I believe they are different concepts. Please check those verses. :)
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#52
Amin! I don't want to be wrong in saying what I said, because I know how the friends of Job ended in the eyes of God because they talked without knowing. Please let's be kind and not jump to conclusions. I am not here to force someone to believe what I believe. Well you don't want to make me find the truth "prove me wrong" but you want to discuss Scripture, that doesn't contradict itself? I want to hear your opinion. We are all christians and believers let's act that way. please :(
If you come to understand scripture and truth, it will not be by my power or words, but God's grace moving in your life.

"Let's act that way, please"?

It implies that I am not acting like a Christian or believer.

Which I will accept as true because I refuse pretend and "act like a believer".

I simply a child of God talking to her siblings, no act or show.

You misunderstand my words and that is why you think there is a contradiction...I do want you to learn truth. I just know it's not in my power to reveal it to you.

I can talk about scriptures but God will convict and reveal His wisdom through His power.

I can pray with people but it is God who answers prayers.

I refuse to debate because without God's power its all just empty words.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#53

[FONT=&quot]Philippians 2:12 :"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
What does it mean to 'work
out'=[/FONT]
Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something
So you have to work for it, and only at the end of your work you receive payment (salvation). We all are/were employees. :)

And the verses from Ephesians 2:8-9 :
[TABLE="width: 468"]
[TR]
[TD="class: v en"]Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:[TABLE="width: 468"]
[TR]
[TD="class: vn"][/TD]
[TD="class: v en"]For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them."
In this translation I read "you have salvation"now or in future. You can say both. And in verse 8 with your translation you can say " by grace you have been saved through faith" as in God already sealed this through Christ, as in a promise "you have been saved through Jesus Christ" and I will not take this away ever, if you remain with me. Maybe this is a little bit forced but what is your opinion about verses from 1 Peter 1:4-9 ? and Romans 8:23-24?

I hope I don't upset you with anything. It's just my way of finding the truth. I am waiting for your reply! With sincere and respect, Miriam.



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Nope I am not an employee of God, I am His child.
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
338
83
#54
Of course you can lose salvation, by doing the complete opposite of what you did to gain salvation. Just have a change of heart, deny Christ as your Savior, and walk away. The OSAS crowd believe you can be a hypocrite and sin all you want, while claiming Christ saves us no matter what. But I believe that intentionally doing the opposite of everything Jesus lived and died for, while simultaneously claiming to be saved, is tantamount to mocking God/Christ. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23). While Jesus will never forsake a true believer, nor withhold eternal life from those who earnestly follow his example & teachings, its a misnomer to presume that a Christian can't fall from grace by forsaking Christ. King Saul and Judas Iscariot are examples of that. A Christian must keep the faith and finish the race. As long as we have free will, we have the choice of surrendering salvation, just as we had the choice of accepting it.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#55
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
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[TD]Rom 8:38
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[TD]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
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[TR]
[TD]

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Rom 8:39
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[TD]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#56
Of course you can lose salvation, by doing the complete opposite of what you did to gain salvation. Just have a change of heart, deny Christ as your Savior, and walk away. The OSAS crowd believe you can be a hypocrite and sin all you want, while claiming Christ saves us no matter what. But I believe that intentionally doing the opposite of everything Jesus lived and died for, while simultaneously claiming to be saved, is tantamount to mocking God/Christ. "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23). While Jesus will never forsake a true believer, nor withhold eternal life from those who earnestly follow his example & teachings, its a misnomer to presume that a Christian can't fall from grace by forsaking Christ. King Saul and Judas Iscariot are examples of that. A Christian must keep the faith and finish the race. As long as we have free will, we have the choice of surrendering salvation, just as we had the choice of accepting it.
I think John said it best.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

context. People who claimed to have faith in christ, and was in the church, Who left and because against Christ, even denying him.

So when people say you can turn around and do the opposite (deny christ) to lose salvation. John would say otherwise. I would listen to the apostle.

As for "sin all you want" strawman.. Legalists water down the law. So they sin all the want, and excuse it.. As long s they do not do certain sins they are ok.. So please do not buy into the sin all you want nonsense..
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
#57
Anyone who says we can lose our salvation doesn't really understand what occurs when one is saved. The dead spirit we all inherited from adam is made alive and combined with the spirit of Jesus. That can never, ever be undone. We are sealed with a promise and redeemed. There are so many verses and in fact the whole gospel of Jesus given to paul to support this but sadly none are so blind as they who refuse to see.
In the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 foolish virgins exclaim that their spirits are being extinguished. Scary stuff.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#58
Hmm nicely put. But in Philippians 2:13 of course God gives you the will/desire to do something good, and in my language 'work' is defined by accomplishment, and through His power you finish that work. Yes and that is so, because you cannot without Him do anything to accomplishment, maybe you can, but not that perfect. If you just say what you said that means we don't have free will, and everything is manipulated by God. But I have seen in my life, that if I don't do my part of work God cannot force me. What I mean by 'my work' is "a work done through Him but willingly'. Like preparing for an exam. You can pray all you want, if you don't study He cannot do magic, He can but He chooses not to. Some people experienced this but only if they couldn't learn by objective reasons, and once in a lifetime. So you have to learn, to do your part of deal. What you say is rather sad. We are not puppets, God's love gave us chances to choose. :)

In other words He gives you the will and desire, because He puts good deeds in you, but you have to engage. And He finishes the 'deeds' but only if you do your part.

You haven't reply to my other question. Thank you for your ideas :)
I am waiting. :D
I agree with what you are saying here..I never said God does the "puppet" act on us..l..He woos us by His love and grace. So, of course we participate in His work in us. It's His life in us that brings forth the fruit as we rest in Him - but we do work with Him...it's just natural to love and that shows itself in many ways and us "doing" His work should be a gimmie!

What is the other question? I must have missed it.

 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
63
#59
In the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 foolish virgins exclaim that their spirits are being extinguished. Scary stuff.
John 14:27 Peace I leave you my peace I give you. Not as the world gives give I unto you. Let your hearts not be troubled neither let them be afraid.
The words Jesus said the most while He walked the earth...DONT BE AFRAID. Sadly until we come to a realization of our true identity in Christ we will always be afraid.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#60
In the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 foolish virgins exclaim that their spirits are being extinguished. Scary stuff.

What is scary is someone claiming they do not teach a gospel of works. Then he teaches a gospel of works..