Can we or can we not lose our salvation?

[LaurenTM]

If we can loose it, begs the question, do we find it?

Scripture clearly defines the perimeters of salvation. People come along and mess it up by trying to put themselves in control of something they know very little about

Sure we can take scriptures and make them say whatever it is we think they are saying which is why, pause for breath, we need to have a solid understanding of Bible 101 meaning both testaments and have reconciled scriptures that seem to be saying the opposite of each other, which we do through study and prayer and accepting the fact that God states He has put His Spirit into each of us who are saved, in order to help us. The Holy Spirit is our teacher among other things, but never once does the Bible say anywhere we do not take council from others

and please do not try to say that this verse, As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him., I John 2:27 means we do not need anyone because God has clearly stated that He gives us teachers

a poor understanding of scripture leads to many grievous and very serious errors and affects people very negatively and causes all kinds of problems

God does not want people to suffer in this way, so be careful what you teach and what you say because you are responsible before God for causing havoc in people's lives

In the OT God had nothing good to say about the false prophets and He has the same message for those who spout out big pretentious words that sound knowledgeable but are really nothing but dried dung fit for starting fires

You will note I am not pointing any fingers here, but getting angry at what I just posted is a sure fire way to tell if you think I mean you. It is also good for me to say this, because you will hesitate to identify yourself

call it fire insurance LOL!

 

[PeterJens]

What does it mean to walk "appropriately". And why do you fail at it?

Appropriately is walking in righteousness, or reacting to lifes situations as Christ would have us do.
Why do I fail? Often because I am unaware of both my reactions and what is going on.

It often means that rather than seeing the best or the Lords will in a situation I rely on what
appears to be my response. This can get towards hyper-legalism, when there is no definative right
response.

As far as the big issues, zero problems. But I have always assumed this is other peoples experiences.
It appears not though. Or as some would say, "I am not perfect" as an excuse.

Take a strong provocation from cc. It can take time to work it through without sin.
Some would say but that is just manipulating who you are, not being honest.

So we come to the dilemma. Who are we? Our initial reaction or how it works out in our lives?
I would say Jesus is calling us to work things through, to choose to walk in love and grace.

As an example look at the discussions between Moses and God about what to do with Israel.
This is very much working things through and discussing alternative reactions.

This is Gods way.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Appropriately is walking in righteousness, or reacting to lifes situations as Christ would have us do.
Why do I fail? Often because I am unaware of both my reactions and what is going on.

It often means that rather than seeing the best or the Lords will in a situation I rely on what
appears to be my response. This can get towards hyper-legalism, when there is no definative right
response.

As far as the big issues, zero problems. But I have always assumed this is other peoples experiences.
It appears not though. Or as some would say, "I am not perfect" as an excuse.

Take a strong provocation from cc. It can take time to work it through without sin.
Some would say but that is just manipulating who you are, not being honest.

So we come to the dilemma. Who are we? Our initial reaction or how it works out in our lives?
I would say Jesus is calling us to work things through, to choose to walk in love and grace.

As an example look at the discussions between Moses and God about what to do with Israel.
This is very much working things through and discussing alternative reactions.

This is Gods way.

Thus saith the Lord, eh?

 

[PeterJens]

peter, I wish you would quit playing games. you know exactly what I am talking about. Biblical definition of sin. but since you think you have none, you make up, or use a man-made system to lower the standard.

no one shuold read the Bible and think " well, I don't do most of that so I'm o/k". dangerous thinking when you get there.

You are claiming a lot here. What is your biblical definition of sin?
Mine is simple, love God, love everyone you meet.

You talk of a lower standard but actually are saying it is impossible to walk blamelessly before
the Lord in Christ. It is easy to say two things, we fail everything or we pass everything.

The hard path is to walk in communion with the Lord and grow in this relationship keeping a
blameless walk, in purity and holiness. You appear to bail out at position one, we fail everything.

 

[LaurenTM]

It is obvious that your argument is not an argument at all.

You do not believe sin is a salvation issue.

The argument about works has been closed in the time of the apostles.
Without works your faith is dead.

A christian living in sin is not a christian. The two concepts do not go together.
But you have not addressed this issue, so obviously your answer is flawed.

actually, sin is the issue for which Christ died, would you not say so?

people need to understand that the works that are acceptable to God, are the ones He creates in our hearts for us to do

many people do works out of fear, believing that they must do them or their salvation is in question. this, is not a biblical perspective and results in bondage and religion rather than freedom and relationship

see this verse, For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph. 2:10 indicates that the works we are to do are the ones God has prepared and has in mind for us to do.

If we fail to recognize God's plan is God's plan, then we are wrestling with Him and that is a contest no one can win, unless you count Jacob who wrestled all night with the angel of the Lord, but I suspect God allowed it because who can prevail against God. Jacob limped for the rest of his life...just a little reminder of the power of the One who alone can save

 

[gb9]

You are claiming a lot here. What is your biblical definition of sin?
Mine is simple, love God, love everyone you meet.

You talk of a lower standard but actually are saying it is impossible to walk blamelessly before
the Lord in Christ. It is easy to say two things, we fail everything or we pass everything.

The hard path is to walk in communion with the Lord and grow in this relationship keeping a
blameless walk, in purity and holiness. You appear to bail out at position one, we fail everything.

you see peter, here is reality thinking: my goal each day is to not sin, not do anything to hurt or dishonor God. but many times I fall short of that goal. then, according to the Bible, that is sin. doing something I am not supposed to, not doing what I should.

see how easy that is defined?? I do not need to build a theological system around this concept, I just simply accept it.

 

[PeterJens]

Thus saith the Lord, eh?

I remember thinking on this issue. Which things are spoken by the Lord directly
1. The Law of Moses
2. The prophets when they say, thus says the Lord
3. When it says God said to ....
4. Jesus's words spoken in the gospels

It becomes easy to dismiss certain statements because they appear impossible or difficult.
But that is the point, it is all difficult, because it is about becoming a child of God, not just
being a child of God. This is why I have often found things confusing.

The religious ideas put forward tend to follow the nature of man rather than the narrow path.
But some simple principles become plain. Being righteous, walking as Jesus walked, obeying,
following, being an overcome, a light in the darkness, salt in the world.

Detract from these things and you detract from the truth. So how does your theology measure
up?

 

[FreeNChrist]

You are claiming a lot here. What is your biblical definition of sin?
Mine is simple, love God, love everyone you meet.

You talk of a lower standard but actually are saying it is impossible to walk blamelessly before
the Lord in Christ. It is easy to say two things, we fail everything or we pass everything.

The hard path is to walk in communion with the Lord and grow in this relationship keeping a
blameless walk, in purity and holiness. You appear to bail out at position one, we fail everything.

"...whatever is not from faith is sin." Rom. 14:23

 

[FreeNChrist]

I remember thinking on this issue. Which things are spoken by the Lord directly
1. The Law of Moses
2. The prophets when they say, thus says the Lord
3. When it says God said to ....
4. Jesus's words spoken in the gospels

It becomes easy to dismiss certain statements because they appear impossible or difficult.
But that is the point, it is all difficult, because it is about becoming a child of God, not just
being a child of God. This is why I have often found things confusing.

The religious ideas put forward tend to follow the nature of man rather than the narrow path.
But some simple principles become plain. Being righteous, walking as Jesus walked, obeying,
following, being an overcome, a light in the darkness, salt in the world.

Detract from these things and you detract from the truth. So how does your theology measure
up?

"The Resurrection, and its consequences were the "gospel" or good news which the Christian brought: what we call the 'gospels,' the narratives of Our Lord's life and death, were composed later for the benefit of those who had already accepted the gospel. They were in no sense the basis of Christianity: they were written for those already converted. The miracles of the Resurrection, and the theology of that miracle, comes first: the biography comes later as a comment on it. Nothing could be more unhistorical than to pick out selected sayings of Christ from the gospels and to regard those as the datum and the rest of the New Testament as a construction upon it."


-C. S. Lewis

 

[PeterJens]

you see peter, here is reality thinking: my goal each day is to not sin, not do anything to hurt or dishonor God. but many times I fall short of that goal. then, according to the Bible, that is sin. doing something I am not supposed to, not doing what I should.

see how easy that is defined?? I do not need to build a theological system around this concept, I just simply accept it.

"not do anything to hurt or dishonor God." What are you doing that hurts and dishonours God so much?
Daily? This sounds like a basic conflict or miss-understanding of what it is to honour God.

 

[PaulMack]

Again HeRoseFromThedead you are totally wrong! Why do you keep on teaching the lies of Satan?

We do not work for nor maintain our Justification!

Romans 4:1-
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Why are you teaching lies again HeRoseFromTheDead?

AGAIN we are Justified by God! Not by anything we can do.

Romans 3:21-22
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe

We receive Justification FROM Jesus, not from anything we do.

Again HeRoseFromTHeDead when will you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?

 

[PeterJens]

"The Resurrection, and its consequences were the "gospel" or good news which the Christian brought: what we call the 'gospels,' the narratives of Our Lord's life and death, were composed later for the benefit of those who had already accepted the gospel. They were in no sense the basis of Christianity: they were written for those already converted. The miracles of the Resurrection, and the theology of that miracle, comes first: the biography comes later as a comment on it. Nothing could be more unhistorical than to pick out selected sayings of Christ from the gospels and to regard those as the datum and the rest of the New Testament as a construction upon it."
-C. S. Lewis

This is certainly one perspective. If in your mind various concepts conflict you have to resolve them.
I certainly used to feel the gospels were one view and Paul expressed another. As I have grown up and
learnt more about life, I realise they actually work together, it was my view that was wrong.

One simple question. Jesus never talks about emotions directly. Paul likewise, yet they are the driving force
of life. But are emotions and motivation irrelevant. Love is a deeply emotional word yet people often say
sacrificial love is not emotional, it is a choice of the will.

So things are often not what they appear or what is important and what is not.

 

[gb9]

"not do anything to hurt or dishonor God." What are you doing that hurts and dishonours God so much?
Daily? This sounds like a basic conflict or miss-understanding of what it is to honour God.

more deflection. do you ever address what is being said??? 3 times I have given you a Biblical definition of sin, 3 times you blew it off. no point going farther. have a good day on plant peter where you do no wrong ( according to you. not the Word. just you.)

 

[PeterJens]

Again HeRoseFromThedead you are totally wrong! Why do you keep on teaching the lies of Satan?

the lies of Satan - What will happen if you later discover you were wrong and you are speaking against God?

A description "totally" will always be guaranteed to be wrong, everytime. Why because if you make just one error in your assessment, you have just lied. People maybe wrong in emphasis, in levels of theology, in the spirit with which they deliver something. So I humbly suggest you go away and study the subject which you are claiming to the Gods authority on.

 

[youmustrepent]

Yes..which is why Jesus was born a Jew from the tribe of Judah. He is our High Priest now in the New Covenant.

I realize your need for yourself to maintain your righteousness by your good deeds but it is not the gospel. We are in Christ and the covenant is between the father and the Man Jesus. We are in Christ now - He is the last Adam.

1 John 2:3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[SUP]a[/SUP] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is certainly one perspective. If in your mind various concepts conflict you have to resolve them.
I certainly used to feel the gospels were one view and Paul expressed another. As I have grown up and
learnt more about life, I realise they actually work together, it was my view that was wrong.

One simple question. Jesus never talks about emotions directly. Paul likewise, yet they are the driving force
of life. But are emotions and motivation irrelevant. Love is a deeply emotional word yet people often say
sacrificial love is not emotional, it is a choice of the will.

So things are often not what they appear or what is important and what is not.

Just more irrelevent bloviating.

 

[PeterJens]

more deflection. do you ever address what is being said??? 3 times I have given you a Biblical definition of sin, 3 times you blew it off. no point going farther. have a good day on plant peter where you do no wrong ( according to you. not the Word. just you.)

Sorry, this is a new definition of sin to me. To hurt or dishonour God is your benchmark?

You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
Rom 2:23

Dishonoring God is breaking the law. I think your movement has taken the concept and expanded it in different ways than I am aware of. It is not a biblical concept the Lord puts forward. The Lord majored on not dishonoring ones parents.

So I am not avoiding something, you are talking from a different cultural background.

 

[PeterJens]

"Amen..whatsoever is not of faith is sin. "

This is a meaningless comment. You can make anything sin you want or not depending on your
interpretation. Imagine going into a prison and saying, you are all guilty of murder, because your
sins put Jesus on the cross so you should all be executed.

Sin has consequences and punishment. Now people who have no regard to morality create these
kind of comments because morality means little to them.

Imagine if they got gutted one end to the other. Is that any more sinful than claiming you can go
to heaven while denying christ and breaking all the commandments because at some point you believed
in Jesus.

This is the world of madness, where nothing really matters, it is just ideas to be thrown around.

And the lie is these people have such a high view of sin, not realising it is as bad to make everything
sinful, as it is to make everything ok, because the effect is the same.

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Amen..whatsoever is not of faith is sin. "

This is a meaningless comment. You can make anything sin you want or not depending on your
interpretation. Imagine going into a prison and saying, you are all guilty of murder, because your
sins put Jesus on the cross so you should all be executed.

Sin has consequences and punishment. Now people who have no regard to morality create these
kind of comments because morality means little to them.

Imagine if they got gutted one end to the other. Is that any more sinful than claiming you can go
to heaven while denying christ and breaking all the commandments because at some point you believed
in Jesus.

This is the world of madness, where nothing really matters, it is just ideas to be thrown around.

And the lie is these people have such a high view of sin, not realising it is as bad to make everything
sinful, as it is to make everything ok, because the effect is the same.

Meaningless? See how easily you negate biblical truth to carry on with what you want to believe? Until you figure out what that means you will never know just how deep your sin goes. And you will, no doubt, continue spitting into the wind.

 

[PeterJens]

peter, I wish you would quit playing games. you know exactly what I am talking about. Biblical definition of sin. but since you think you have none, you make up, or use a man-made system to lower the standard.

no one shuold read the Bible and think " well, I don't do most of that so I'm o/k". dangerous thinking when you get there.

I am not playing games.

And I do not read the bible and think "I don't do most of that"

I desire to understand what it means and how to work this out in my life.

A for-instance - "Do not get angry", with "Do not let the sun go down on your anger"

One implies anger is wrong, the other anger for a sustained period.
You could say this is a contradiction, or an explanation of anger is natural, but needs to be limited.

Do not murder. Execute murderers. Now again in executing a murderer you are killing a person.
In war often innocent people die. Is this now murder or execution?

It is always easy to say morality is an open and shut issue, but it is not.
As a resistance army, can you murder soldiers without declaring who you are?
Is war justified for a follower of Jesus?

Now once you begin seriously to approach these issues, suddenly certainty goes and love starts to take
over.