BRIDE OF CHRIST, REFERS TO BOTH O.T. SAINTS AND N.T. SAINTS

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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#41
Scripturally speaking, the true church of the Lord’s redeemed people is a building, and Jesus Christ is a corner stone and a foundation. It is a spiritual building made up of God’s people. “Ye are God’s building...I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon...For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” 1 Cor. 3:9-11. “Ye also as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house...Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious; and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.” 1 Peter 2:5-6. The words “assembly” and “congregation” lose the meaning and connection to a spiritual house or temple made up of living stones.


Let’s take a look at the history of the English word “church” as found in our English Bibles. In 1380 John Wycliffe began translating the Scriptures into the English language. This is a full 2 Centuries before the 16th century Mr. Abram told us about.

Matthew 16:18 King James Holy Bible - “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Wycliffe Bible 1385 - “And Y seie to thee, that thou art Petre, and on this stoon Y schal bilde my CHIRCHE, and the yatis of helle schulen not haue miyt ayens it.”

In fact, Wycliffe’s bible has the words “chirche, chirches, and chirchis” some 111 times in the New Testament. So much for not existing in the English language till the 16th century.

I see you like to use the YLT, NASB, ESV, NIV, HCSB...do you trust any of those versions to hold the pure words of God? Aren't any of those versions trustworthy? Using different versions just let's me know that you like to be the final authority of what God has said.

I just did a search through 12 versions of the Bible for: Ye are Gods building. Apparently this is the verse you are quoting:

1 Corinthians 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

In the NASB it is worded:

1 Corinthians 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Paul and Apollos were but God's fellow workers. It was not their own ministry that they worked in, but His. What divine companionship! It was God's church in Corinth, not Paul's or Apollos's or Peter's. The believers there were God's field, God's building, and His alone. And the glory for any good work done there, or anywhere, is also His alone.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – 1 Corinthians.
NOW if you are saying that GOD Himself is the SOLE Architect of the Sum Total of all True Believers of all time, I agree with you. If you meant something else by how you worded that, I would have to disagree.

BUT what has that to do with the ABSOLUTE FACT that the word CHURCH is NOT in the Greek New Testament? The Correct translation from Greek to English would be "ASSEMBLY". CHURCH refers to ONLY New Testament Believers, while "the ASSEMBLY" would refer to both OT True Believers and NT True Believers.

Usage Notes: * For CHURCH see ASSEMBLY and CONGREGATION

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.
Greek Strong's Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklēsia
Phonetic Pronunciation:
ek-klay-see'-ah

Root: from a compound of <G1537> and a derivative of <G2564>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 3:501,394
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Assembly, Congregation



Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Greek NASB Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]ekklêsia[/FONT]
Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--

New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
Church
Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship.

In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning.

Illustrated Bible Dictionary: And Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature.
CLEARLY the word CHURCH was substituted for the actual LITERAL Translation "ASSEMBLY".

I think that is a critical ERROR, because for all these centuries that ERROR has led us Christians to ERRONEOUSLY believe THAT GOD went back on His WORD and chose the CHURCH to be the Bride of Christ, rejecting or divorcing true believers of ISRAEL. THE TRUTH IS, THE OT TRUE BELIEVERS AND THE NT TRUE BELIEVERS COMBINED ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.
 
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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#42
YES they were trying to correct known errors, but they did not translate again from the original Language manuscripts, they used all the older English Bibles, and the Latin Bible that was held in high esteem at that TIME. So how many unknown errors remained in the Updated KJV paraphrase?

HENCE WHEN MODERN ACTUAL TRANSLATIONS came along using the OLDEST original language manuscripts, they find those manuscripts did not say:

1 John 5:7-8 (KJV) first published in 1611
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Instead they found the oldest original language manuscripts wording it:

1 John 5:7-8 (YLT) published in 1862
[SUP]7 [/SUP] because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these--the three--are one;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and three are who are testifying in the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

REMEMBER, the words in italics are NOT IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE MANUSCRIPTS, they were added by the Translation Team at some point, to try to explain what they thought HE was referring to, as if men inserting their opinions improves what GOD HAS SAID. I suspect one of those English Bibles OLDER than the KJV, originally inserted that phrase above in blue, and the KJV Team, copied it without checking the Original Language Manuscripts.

NOW when we jump forward to one of the NEWEST ACTUAL TRANSLATIONS we find that ALL GOD SAID IS:

1 John 5:7-8 (HCSB) Holman's Christian Standard Bible published in 2004
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For there are three that testify:
[SUP]8 [/SUP] the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.
Hi VCO,

Thank you for your response to my post and I see where you are coming from. Although I would not touch more in detail 1John 5:7-8 now, but noticed you tend to believe in the "Oldest and best manuscripts" arguments. Also you did mention about the "oldest original language manuscripts" where the originals no longer exists. What the "oldest you are referring as per as the NT is concerned is none other than the depraved Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Of course the KJV translators did not find 1 John 5:7-8 which was published in 1862. Italics are to show that King's translators are honest yet, are they not vindicated on the matter of 1 John 5:7? If you really believed in the "oldest and best" then surely you have to believe what the NKJV which I believed the version used mostly the same criteria of the oldest and the best you are referring to :

1 John 5:7 NKJV For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

Thank you
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
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#43
BUT what has that to do with the ABSOLUTE FACT that the word CHURCH is NOT in the Greek New Testament? The Correct translation from Greek to English would be "ASSEMBLY". CHURCH refers to ONLY New Testament Believers, while "the ASSEMBLY" would refer to both OT True Believers and NT True Believers.
By saying it as in "ABSOLUTE FACT" you are in big, big trouble with many scholars and translators including many modern translators. About 130 translators in the NKJV translated "ekklesia" to church in English. Aside from that the many translators from NLT, NIV, RSV, HCSB, NASB, NET, ASV, WEB. Of course, the king's men did it correctly when they translated it from the latin of old where the latin language was translated from the original copies of the NT greek. So the Latin get it from the Greek. I believe it will be just fine to believe that the NT scriptures is written not only in greek but also in Latin...
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
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#44
By saying it as in "ABSOLUTE FACT" you are in big, big trouble with many scholars and translators including many modern translators. About 130 translators in the NKJV translated "ekklesia" to church in English. Aside from that the many translators from NLT, NIV, RSV, HCSB, NASB, NET, ASV, WEB. Of course, the king's men did it correctly when they translated it from the latin of old where the latin language was translated from the original copies of the NT greek. So the Latin get it from the Greek. I believe it will be just fine to believe that the NT scriptures is written not only in greek but also in Latin...
I mean the NT greek scriptures were translated to Latin...
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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#45
Hi VCO,

Thank you for your response to my post and I see where you are coming from. Although I would not touch more in detail 1John 5:7-8 now, but noticed you tend to believe in the "Oldest and best manuscripts" arguments. Also you did mention about the "oldest original language manuscripts" where the originals no longer exists. What the "oldest you are referring as per as the NT is concerned is none other than the depraved Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Of course the KJV translators did not find 1 John 5:7-8 which was published in 1862. Italics are to show that King's translators are honest yet, are they not vindicated on the matter of 1 John 5:7? If you really believed in the "oldest and best" then surely you have to believe what the NKJV which I believed the version used mostly the same criteria of the oldest and the best you are referring to :

1 John 5:7 NKJV For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

Thank you
Read it for yourself. This is an excerpt from the NKJV PREFACE:

[FONT=&quot]The New King James Version is a conservative revision of the King James version that does not make any alterations on the basis of a revised Greek or Hebrew text, but adheres to the readings presumed to underlie the King James version. In the New Testament, this means that the Greek text followed is the [/FONT]Textus Receptus of the early printed editions of the sixteenth century. The ancient manuscripts, upon which critical editions of the Greek text have been based for nearly two centuries now, are ignored (except in the marginal notes). So, for example, the Johannine Comma is printed in the text of 1 John 5:7-8 just as it was in the King James Version (although a note informs the reader that “only 4 or 5 very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek”).

 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
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#46
Read it for yourself. This is an excerpt from the NKJV PREFACE:

The New King James Version is a conservative revision of the King James version that does not make any alterations on the basis of a revised Greek or Hebrew text, but adheres to the readings presumed to underlie the King James version. In the New Testament, this means that the Greek text followed is the Textus Receptus of the early printed editions of the sixteenth century. The ancient manuscripts, upon which critical editions of the Greek text have been based for nearly two centuries now, are ignored (except in the marginal notes). So, for example, the Johannine Comma is printed in the text of 1 John 5:7-8 just as it was in the King James Version (although a note informs the reader that “only 4 or 5 very late manuscripts contain these words in Greek”).

While it maybe true that NKJV is based on the Textus Receptus, but contains many Alexandrian readings and is therefore hybrid. The basic NKJV New Testament text is actually the Farstad-Hodges so called it “Majority Text” which basically not used synonymously used as the Received Text or the majority text used in the KJV. Because of this the NKJV did omit many that are in the Greek TR. If you may wanted to find the differences, Dr. David Cloud has lists see MOVING AWAY FROM PRESERVED SCRIPTURE: EXAMINING THE HODGES-FARSTAD MAJORITY TEXT
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
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#47
Yes...BRIDE of CHRIST refers to both the OT and NT saints...
The BRIDE of CHRIST, as seen in Revelation are wearing the SAME (WHITE) GARMENT...

And the NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from Heaven like a Bride adorned for Her HUSBAND depicts 24 elders...the 12 names of the tribes of Israel AND the names of the 12 apostles...

See Revelation 21
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
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#48
Yes...BRIDE of CHRIST refers to both the OT and NT saints...
The BRIDE of CHRIST, as seen in Revelation are wearing the SAME (WHITE) GARMENT...

And the NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from Heaven like a Bride adorned for Her HUSBAND depicts 24 elders...the 12 names of the tribes of Israel AND the names of the 12 apostles...

See Revelation 21
The marriage supper of the Lamb is in Revelation 19. if the the bride refers to both the OT and NT saints then we have a big problem to John the Baptist who is according to the scriptures is the friend of the bridegroom. Paul speaks of this as mystery between the Christ and the church. So in order to fit this system of both, one must consider to eliminate the word church in the bible and replaced it with "assembly" or congregation.

Revelation 21 speaks of "as" the bride already a Lamb's wife and the husband depicts only the names of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles. So the question is who are these 12 apostles? Judas certainly is not in the group. We either have Matthias or Apostle Paul.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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#49
The marriage supper of the Lamb is in Revelation 19. if the the bride refers to both the OT and NT saints then we have a big problem to John the Baptist who is according to the scriptures is the friend of the bridegroom. Paul speaks of this as mystery between the Christ and the church. So in order to fit this system of both, one must consider to eliminate the word church in the bible and replaced it with "assembly" or congregation.

Revelation 21 speaks of "as" the bride already a Lamb's wife and the husband depicts only the names of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles. So the question is who are these 12 apostles? Judas certainly is not in the group. We either have Matthias or Apostle Paul.
Look it up in your own dictionary the Greek word means ASSEMBLY, some one in the early days of translating it to English chose to use Church because that is what the assembly of believers was called, ignoring the fact that the Greek word did not mean Church, and everyone else followed the lead duck. Leaving it alone, and translating it LITERALLY, it would be ASSEMBLY and the two folds that became one Flock would be OT Saints and NT Saints.

Who is the 12th Apostle? I would say it is one who was hand picked by CHRIST Himself.
 
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mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
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#50
In my point of view, it is just commonsense the Bride of Messiah is made up of non-Jews and Jews. Unless the Scripture there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek we all one is Y-shua the Messiah is wrong. But maybe G-d does not know what He is talking about. So this opens a new question were these Abraham, King David, Noah, and a prostitute named Rahab and so on in Y-shua? Have "you" (you in general) ever the Book of Hebrews?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
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#51
Just saw this thread for the first time. Skimmed the posts. For what it's worth, here is my 2 cents on the subject:

Who is the Bride of Christ?

When John sees the new heaven and earth appear, he is called to come see the Bride of the Lamb[1]. He is then shown the Holy City, New Jerusalem, descending to the ground prepared as a bride.

Wow. A new heaven and earth. Sweet. And a capitol city, adorned as a bride for her ruler. Now, when God talks about a city He refers to the people who live there. Jesus made an example of this when He wept over Jerusalem, saying how much He longed to take the city in His arms[2]. Jesus didn’t want to hold the buildings, He was loving the people. In the passages of Revelation, we get not only a description of how the Holy City looks, but also of the people within it. So who are those who inhabit it?

John records hearing a loud voice declaring that God’s tabernacle is with men, that these are His people and He is their God. There are no more tears, pain, death, or sorrow, and old things are passed away. God declares all things new, and promises to give freely of the water of life to those who thirst. He says those who overcome shall inherit these things and be His sons. John says There is no temple because God and the Lamb are its temple, and there is no sun or moon because they are its light.

He goes on to say that the nations of the saved shall walk in the city’s light, that the kings and nations will bring their glory and honor into it, and that only those whose names are written in the Book of life will ever enter. John is shown the river of life, and the tree of life, whose leaves are for the healing of these nations. He hears it declared that the curse of separation is over and God can once again live with His servants, on whose foreheads is the name of God. They reign forever and ever.

There are two different groups here inhabiting this new earth. There are those who live in New Jerusalem where God takes residence, and there are nations of the saved who live outside the city and interact with it. Remember now, this is the new earth, all those here are His. So while most of us do live in a world with His presence, there is a special subset He draws even nearer to live with Him.

One thing we see is that God will live in the City with His servants. Servants can take the form of tradesmen, who are paid a wage and work it will, or slaves who are given neither consideration. In Old Testament times if you had a slave you had to offer him his freedom after a period of service[3]. But if you were a good and loving master he might not have wanted to leave. So you would pierce his ear as a symbol of his becoming your bondservant. In return for his agreeing to be your slave for life, you agreed to care for him and his family for life. When God speaks about His servants He speaks of His bondservants, those who when offered freedom have chosen servitude.

This City population also includes those who "overcome.” Overcome is a fighting term, meaning to gain victory against an adversary in combat. In Jesus’ letters to the churches He commends their good works, rebukes their wrongs, exhorts them to seek a special understanding, and makes a specific promise to "those who overcome.” They are promised to eat from the tree of life; to not be hurt by the second death; to be given hidden manna and a white stone with a new name on it unknown to any others but themselves and God. They are to be given power over the nations. They are also to be given the morning star, to be clothed in white and to never have their names blotted out from the book of life but confessed before the Father and His angels. They are to be made pillars in the temple of God and to never go out from it, and to have written on them the name of the City of God. Given new names they are granted to sit down with Jesus on His throne as was granted Him when He overcame and sat down with the Father.

These promises are all identifiable to those given by John to the inhabitants of New Jerusalem. One new promise is that of being given the morning star. Jesus called himself the Morning Star[4], and promised to give Himself as such to His Bride.

These people also eat from the tree of life, whereas in the earlier passage we saw that the leaves of the tree are for the nations.

Let’s look at that word ‘Overcoming’. In Revelation those who overcome are to be clothed in white. Daniel, in his visions, was told that after the beast had overcome the saints, many will be refined, purified, and made white. Then in Revelation 7:9-17 we see a vast multitude standing before the throne of God, wearing white robes and praising Him. These are described as those who come out of the great tribulation having washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb. These are promised to serve God before His throne day and night, and God will dwell among them. They hunger and thirst no more; the sun does not shine on them; the Lamb of the Throne will shepherd them and lead them to living waters; and their tears are wiped away. Rev. 6:9-11 shows us the souls of those slain for the Word of God and His testimony under the altar, and they cry out to God asking when He will avenge their blood. They are each given a white robe and are told to rest a while longer until the number of their brethren who are likewise killed is complete.

Dwelling on the word "overcome”, if we dig a little more we find two specific things overcome in the end time. One is the world, the other is Satan. We find that the world is overcome by the Blood of Jesus, but the Blood of the Lamb is specifically named in connection with the casting out of Satan[5]. We were told that Satan is overcome by the Blood of the Lamb, and the testimony of ‘those who do not love their lives unto death’.

This should put together some kind of picture for you. Jesus’ bride are those who have sealed themselves to God as true bondslaves willing to die for Him. They will be His Bide and live with Him in the City. And the rest of us will live outside the City in nations of the saved.

If I may rile some people; nowhere yet have we seen "the Church” in descriptions of His bride. This is unusual, because the Church is very much universally accepted as being the Bride of Christ. That connection comes from Ephesians 5:22-33, where Paul talks about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the Church. In trying to explain what he calls a mystery, Paul quotes Genesis 2:23 where God declares that man and woman will become one flesh. In this setting God has just taken part of Adam’s body (his rib) to create his wife, Eve. Paul specifically calls the church the body of Christ; Jesus is called the second Adam[6]. To fit the pattern of Adam would it not follow that a part, and not all, of His body will be taken to create His bride? But nowhere does it say Church. It says those who seal their love of Him to the death.

Jesus talked about people entering into a wedding feast, and they were called blessed because they were invited. But in a Biblical wedding feast the bride was not invited and did not attend. She was sequestered away someplace being prepared for the wedding night. After the feast the groom would go to take his bride from that place. An example of this is Jacob’s marriage to Rachel[7]. If his bride to be had been at the wedding feast he would have known he was being given Leah instead. So again there are two groups here… the general populace who feast with God, and those give their life as a Slave and Bride to Him.

In another place[8] Paul explains further. He says he wishes to present us to the Lord as a chaste virgin. But then he fears, that we be deceived and corrupt that purity. I think what Paul meant is that the Church, the aggregate body of all who believe in Christ, BC or AD, have been born virgin for betrothal to the Lord. But this virginal quality can be corrupted on an individual basis. Those of His people who don’t fall to this corruption will be taken from those who do, to become His bride. The rib from the body.

Perhaps His Bride could also be seen by looking at her prefiguration (or Biblical pattern, getting back to that repeating history thing). God will physically dwell on the New Earth in New Jerusalem. On Old Earth (our Earth) God physically dwelt on earth in the Tabernacle and the Temple, the basic difference being that one (the Tabernacle) was mobile and the other (the Temple) a fixed site. The facilities both consisted of a central structure surrounded by a walled courtyard. One tribe (the Levites) were called apart from the family to serve inside the tabernacle/temple as God’s priests. The other tribes lived outside but brought their sacrifices into the tabernacle/temple. This is what John saw with the New Earth and New Jerusalem - the only difference being nations instead of tribes, a city instead of a tent/building, and commerce instead of sacrifice.

We heard earlier that a biblical bride went somewhere to wait and prepare for the groom. So where does She go ? Remember Jesus’ statement that those in Judea should flee to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation, and our noting that the Judeans were very close and loyal to Him? We also saw the Revelation 12 prophecy of the woman who fled to a place prepared for her in the wilderness where she is cared for. Hosea 2 talks about the day of the Lord, as God speaks about Israel’s harlotry and His judgment upon her, after which He allures her into the wilderness and speaks comfort to her there. She is given vineyards as in the day she was called up out of Egypt, and she now calls Him Husband, not master. These people will be taken by God to a place of safety and preparation.

Back to the tribulation for a moment. We saw that there was worldly judgment, then the desolation of Jerusalem, then not just the catching up of God’s people but others being told to flee. There is a group who are drawn to a place of protection during the feast and millennium and the final battle, and in the recreation and new creation of earth and heavens. What we looked at before regarding what it’s like during that millennium talked about a group who are sequestered away, over whom the ‘second death’ at the very end has no place. So there are those who come out of the resurrection/’rapture’ who are sequestered as a bride during the millennium and final judgment.

God will have a pure and chaste bride - those who are committed to be His eternal bondservants to the death. Not all of His people will be a part of her, but each of us has a chance to be. It all depends on how much we love our Creator, and whether we let our simple dependence upon Him be corrupted.



[HR][/HR][1] Rev. 21, 22


[2] Matt. 23:37


[3] Gen. 21:1-6


[4] Rev. 22:16


[5] Rev. 7 and 12


[6] 1 Cor. 15:22, 45-49


[7] Gen. 29


[8] 2 Cor. 11
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
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#52
Look it up in your own dictionary the Greek word means ASSEMBLY, some one in the early days of translating it to English chose to use Church because that is what the assembly of believers was called, ignoring the fact that the Greek word did not mean Church, and everyone else followed the lead duck. Leaving it alone, and translating it LITERALLY, it would be ASSEMBLY and the two folds that became one Flock would be OT Saints and NT Saints.

Who is the 12th Apostle? I would say it is one who was hand picked by CHRIST Himself.
The word “assembly” is still a poor translation of the Greek “ekklessia” leaving an impression that assembly could mean many things.

Now I will use a NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon a similar to Strong Definition for reference and not a Final Authority as to the Greek word “ekklessia” . In this case, you have a very slim chance of promoting your assembly instead of church being used only of 2% whereas when it was translated into “church or churches” is of the majority of about 96%. The evidence of 96% does matter in fact and that’s only for NAS. Your Greek game literally will leave you into a situation where you cannot handle since many of the Bible words that contains in the many versions are not found in the Greek. This maybe a bit surprising but to give an example: The words “adoption” “sacrifice” “salvation” ”revelation” “resurrection” and Justification” are all transliterated LATIN words.

Therefore, the “assembly” of OT saints and NT saints are not the bride of Christ. Simply because there’s a church…
God bless you.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Definition
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
  1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
    1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    2. the assembly of the Israelites
    3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    4. in a Christian sense
      1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
      3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NAS Word Usage - Total: 114
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]assembly 3, church 74, churches 35, congregation 2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#53
The word “assembly” is still a poor translation of the Greek “ekklessia” leaving an impression that assembly could mean many things.

Now I will use a NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon a similar to Strong Definition for reference and not a Final Authority as to the Greek word “ekklessia” . In this case, you have a very slim chance of promoting your assembly instead of church being used only of 2% whereas when it was translated into “church or churches” is of the majority of about 96%. The evidence of 96% does matter in fact and that’s only for NAS. Your Greek game literally will leave you into a situation where you cannot handle since many of the Bible words that contains in the many versions are not found in the Greek. This maybe a bit surprising but to give an example: The words “adoption” “sacrifice” “salvation” ”revelation” “resurrection” and Justification” are all transliterated LATIN words.

Therefore, the “assembly” of OT saints and NT saints are not the bride of Christ. Simply because there’s a church…
God bless you.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
  1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
    1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
    2. the assembly of the Israelites
    3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
    4. in a Christian sense
      1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
      2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
      3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
      4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
      5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NAS Word Usage - Total: 114[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]assembly 3, church 74, churches 35, congregation 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The poor translation of the WORD “ekklessia” is substituting the WORD "Church" for "Assembly", simply because it is the popular English word for Assembly of NT Believers. "Assembly" of Believers is a term that GOD used for both the gathering of Believers in OT times and NT times.

. . . the early translators of the English Bible improperly translated the word "ekklesia" into the English word "church" instead of "assembly" or "congregation." . . . [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
Dr. Cooper P. Abrams, III​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" in the English Bible as "church" and its Ramifications by Cooper Abrams
No, I do not agree with some of his conclusions, but Dr Cooper Abrams, III, certainly correctly identified translating "ekklesia" to Church was an improper translation.

. . . In our English Bible the Greek word, “ekklesia” is translated in most places “church.” The word “ekklesia” is found in one hundred and fifteen places in the New Testament. It is translated in English one hundred and thirteen times “church” and the remaining times it is translated “assembly.” In classical Greek the word “ekklesia” meant “an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly.” The word as used in the New Testament is taken from the root of this word, which simply means to “call out.” In New Testament times the word was exclusively used to represent a group of people assembled together for a particular cause or purpose. It was never used exclusively to refer to a religious meeting or group.
An examination of the Greek word “ekklesia” reveals that the word is properly translated into English as the “assembly” or “congregation.” It is used to refer to a group of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together. . . https://jeraldd.wordpress.com/definition-of-ekklesia/
{quote]EKKLESIA or ECCLESIA.InclassicalGreekthiswordsignifiesany assembly. . .
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ECCLESIA [/quote]

Ekklesia (pronounced ek-klay-see'-ah) is The Greek word used in the Bible for church, which actually means assembly or literally “called out ones.” It is made up of the two Greek words, EK—“out of,” and KALEO—“shall be called.” http://ekk-lex.org/site/about_us/definition.html

AND WHEN ARE THEY CALLED OUT?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That comes right of JEWISH WEDDING traditions, the BRIDEGROOM does NOT come all the way to the Bride's House to Call Her Out, instead He appoints a member of His Wedding Party to go on ahead and CALL out the Bride. CLEARLY the Archangel has been appoint that task. Like I said in my first post:

Jeremiah 23:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]"Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of My pasture!" declares the LORD.


Ezekiel 34:31 (NASB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]"As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord GOD.

John 10:11-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and doesn’t own the sheep, leaves them
and runs away when he sees a wolf coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]⌊This happens⌋ because he is a hired man and doesn’t care about the sheep.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
"

Most theologians agree that the Birthday of the Church is the Day of Pentecost. Some will say the Birthday of the Church is when the Sacrifice for our sins was complete, ("It is finished"), or at or after his Resurrection, when HE sat Down at the Right Hand of the Father. No matter which you believe, this fold , in the verse above CANNOT REFER TO THE CHURCH. He is talking to the LAST of the O.T. Saints, and the, other sheep , refers to N.T. Saints.

I also need to point out again that ASSEMBLY is a term for an O.T. Congregation, and an N.T. Congregation. IT WAS AN ERROR to translate it to anything except ASSEMBLY.

OT Saints believed in their heart that Messiah would come .
NT Saints believe in their heart that Messiah did come.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH, THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM.

Jeremiah 2:2 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]"Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem: "'I remember the devotion of your youth, how as a bride you loved me and followed me through the desert, through a land not sown.

Isaiah 62:5 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee; and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


MOVE OVER AND MAKE MORE ROOM ON THAT PEW, THE O.T. SAINTS ARE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND EQUALLY PART OF THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.


Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
 
Last edited:

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
113
#54
The poor translation of the WORD “ekklessia” is substituting the WORD "Church" for "Assembly", simply because it is the popular English word for Assembly of NT Believers. "Assembly" of Believers is a term that GOD used for both the gathering of Believers in OT times and NT times.



No, I do not agree with some of his conclusions, but Dr Cooper Abrams, III, certainly correctly identified translating "ekklesia" to Church was an improper translation.



{quote]EKKLESIA or ECCLESIA.InclassicalGreekthiswordsignifiesany assembly. . .
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ECCLESIA

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
[/QUOTE]

Yep sir, I have already pointed the NAS Lexicon similar to Mr. Strong. Quoting Dr. Cooper Abrams III, a fundamental Baptist teacher definitely erred in his assertions of the English word “church”. Mr. Abrams has to pass through the test of many scholars of today who still believe “ecclesia” as legitimate transliteration of the word “church” This is correct as already demonstrated with over 96% as against 2% a majority as against the minority for NAS only. The KJV on the other hand has “ekklesia” transliteration as church with an overwhelming 97% as compared to just 3% for the word “assembly”.

As to the credibility of the scholarship and translation ability especially of the king’s men is beyond comparable to a just one or two or three Bible teacher or scholars which sometimes they do not agree with one another. The AV translators did a good job in transliterating the word church through a preserved Latin word. The question then is, where did the LATIN Bible came from? We know that such since it came from the copies of the original Greek autographs.

Not only that the KJV has it, the Revised Version 1885,American Standard Version of 1901, the Douay 1950, the RSV, NRSV 1989, ESV 2001-2011, NASB 1963 - 1995, NKJV 1982, Amplified 2000, Dan Wallace's NET version 2006, the Holman Standard 2009, Common English Bible 2011 and the NIV 1984 – 2011 have it. Altogether bringing us many witnesses and evidences and so are we just thinking of a few with questionable capabilities. Even unreliable Mr. Vine and Thayer have the word “church”. An online Greek would also tell you that “ekklesia” is church(see below and do it yourself to find the word church).
ΛΕΞΙΚΌ - LEXICON: Greek-English-Greek dictionary

BTW, Mr Young is not an old reference to s literal “ekklessia”. Finding the result of the Blue letter Bible only YLT that does not found the word church, Since then this makes an odd of overwhelming a 1 out of 11 i.e. .09% rounded to 1% with overall 99.91% that does say “church”. Practically, a 99.91% is believable than a mere rounded off of just 1%. The question where do you based your belief? It’s up to you my friend…

There are no concordance results for "church" in the YLT.
See results from these other Bibles:

76 results in the KJV
73 results in the NKJV
106 results in the NLT
77 results in the NIV
73 results in the ESV
74 results in the HCSB
76 results in the NASB
76 results in the NET
73 results in the RSV
74 results in the ASV
76 results in the WEB


Another thing your classical Greek is not a Koine / Hellenistic Greek or the biblical Greek. The difference lies in the orthography, vocabulary, accidence and syntax. So the reference with the Free Dictionary.com does not cover at all the real meaning of “Ekklessia”.
see https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html

God bless!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#55
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
Yep sir, I have already pointed the NAS Lexicon similar to Mr. Strong. Quoting Dr. Cooper Abrams III, a fundamental Baptist teacher definitely erred in his assertions of the English word “church”. Mr. Abrams has to pass through the test of many scholars of today who still believe “ecclesia” as legitimate transliteration of the word “church” This is correct as already demonstrated with over 96% as against 2% a majority as against the minority for NAS only. The KJV on the other hand has “ekklesia” transliteration as church with an overwhelming 97% as compared to just 3% for the word “assembly”.

As to the credibility of the scholarship and translation ability especially of the king’s men is beyond comparable to a just one or two or three Bible teacher or scholars which sometimes they do not agree with one another. The AV translators did a good job in transliterating the word church through a preserved Latin word. The question then is, where did the LATIN Bible came from? We know that such since it came from the copies of the original Greek autographs.

Not only that the KJV has it, the Revised Version 1885,American Standard Version of 1901, the Douay 1950, the RSV, NRSV 1989, ESV 2001-2011, NASB 1963 - 1995, NKJV 1982, Amplified 2000, Dan Wallace's NET version 2006, the Holman Standard 2009, Common English Bible 2011 and the NIV 1984 – 2011 have it. Altogether bringing us many witnesses and evidences and so are we just thinking of a few with questionable capabilities. Even unreliable Mr. Vine and Thayer have the word “church”. An online Greek would also tell you that “ekklesia” is church(see below and do it yourself to find the word church).
ΛΕΞΙΚΌ - LEXICON: Greek-English-Greek dictionary

BTW, Mr Young is not an old reference to s literal “ekklessia”. Finding the result of the Blue letter Bible only YLT that does not found the word church, Since then this makes an odd of overwhelming a 1 out of 11 i.e. .09% rounded to 1% with overall 99.91% that does say “church”. Practically, a 99.91% is believable than a mere rounded off of just 1%. The question where do you based your belief? It’s up to you my friend…

There are no concordance results for "church" in the YLT.
See results from these other Bibles:

76 results in the KJV
73 results in the NKJV
106 results in the NLT
77 results in the NIV
73 results in the ESV
74 results in the HCSB
76 results in the NASB
76 results in the NET
73 results in the RSV
74 results in the ASV
76 results in the WEB


Another thing your classical Greek is not a Koine / Hellenistic Greek or the biblical Greek. The difference lies in the orthography, vocabulary, accidence and syntax. So the reference with the Free Dictionary.com does not cover at all the real meaning of “Ekklessia”.
see https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jtreat/koine/classical.html

God bless![/QUOTE]

AND only YLT was tryng to translate the Greek LITERALLY, which means all the others DID NOT TRANSLATE IT LITERALLY, settling instead to just choose the best word for the Assembled NT Congregation, without EVER considering that, HE has been building His ASSEMBLY every since ADAM, BECAUSE HE WROTE OUR NAMES IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH.

Not every OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVER, reduced Salvation to Works Righteous
. Many came to realize that I cannot live up to GOD's Standard, I NEED A MESSIAH TO SAVE ME. OBVIOUSLY ADAM AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED THAT. Why is the BOOK OF LIFE even mentioned in the Old Testament? And this verse of messianic prophecy only mentions that those Jews who turn on HIM refusing to believe He is the Messiah, will be blotted out of the BOOK OF LIFE.

Psalm 69:26-29 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; And they tell of the sorrow of those whom thou hast wounded.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Add iniquity unto their iniquity; And let them not come into thy righteousness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But I am poor and sorrowful {Repentant over his sinfulness}: Let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#56
The location of paradise was Abraham's bosom before Christ translated it to heaven. It's current position is the third heaven.

Another one who does not KNOW what "Abraham's bosom" refers to. It is a European and Mid-East custom, where men who are best of friends walk side by side holding hands and you read all this other false beliefs into that story, just because you do not understand the custom and expression. LAZARUS was simply walks side by side Abraham, holding his hand. Paradise was where the Tree of Life was, and that was the The Garden of Eden until Adam sinned. THEN IT MOVED To HEAVEN, in fact their are now TWO trees of Life in HEAVEN:

Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7[/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.

You identified the There Heaven as Paradise, and I compliment you, because many miss that point; but you failed to pick up on the when the Tree of Life was moved to Heaven:

Genesis 2:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And out of the ground made Jehovah God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:24 (GW)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] After he sent the man out, God placed angels and a flaming sword that turned in all directions east of the Garden of Eden. He placed them there to guard the way to the tree of life.

Proverbs 11:30 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life {hmmm, spiritual fruit in the OT}; And he that is wise winneth souls.

As the population grew, while it does not say, it obviously became necessary to move the tree of life to Heaven.

The Concept of the spirit of man going up to Heaven the moment of death, is in the Old Testement:

Psalm 146:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (NIV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#57
Wow, I got in a hurry earlier and did not proof my last post, will correct the typos and add a couple pics.

Another one who does not KNOW what "Abraham's bosom" refers to. It is a European and Mid-East custom, where men who are best of friends walk side by side holding hands and you read all these other false beliefs into that story, just because you do not understand the custom and expression. LAZARUS was simply walking side by side Abraham, holding his hand. And everything indicates that was in Heaven.





That has NOTHING TO DO WITH HOMOSEXUALITY, and everything to do with showing a great friendship, especially in the Mideast. It is called walking in each other's bosom. And WHERE would Lazarus and the Abraham be walking? I seriously DOUBT if it would be under the earth. Perhaps Jacob dream about the LADDER to heaven, had a lot to do with validating that one day, after we die all believers OT and NT will be walking in Heaven.

Paradise was where the Tree of Life was, and that was the The Garden of Eden until Adam sinned. THEN IT MOVED To HEAVEN, in fact their are now TWO trees of Life in HEAVEN:


Revelation 2:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7[/SUP] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

Revelation 22:1-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]In the middle of its street, andon either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
[SUP]4[/SUP]
[SUP] [/SUP]They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. You correctly identified the Third Heaven as Paradise, and I compliment you on that, because many miss that point; but you failed to pick up on where the Tree of Life was moved to, which is Heaven:


Genesis 2:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And out of the ground made Jehovah God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:24 (GW)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]After he sent the man out, God placed angels and a flaming sword that turned in all directions east of the Garden of Eden. He placed them there to guard the way to the tree of life.

Proverbs 11:30 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life {hmmm, spiritual fruit in the OT}; And he that is wise winneth souls.


As the population grew, while it does not say, it obviously became necessary to move the tree of life to Heaven.


The Concept of the spirit of man going up to Heaven the moment of death, is in the Old Testement:


Psalm 146:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (NIV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,112
963
113
#58
AND only YLT was tryng to translate the Greek LITERALLY, which means all the others DID NOT TRANSLATE IT LITERALLY, settling instead to just choose the best word for the Assembled NT Congregation, without EVER considering that, HE has been building His ASSEMBLY every since ADAM, BECAUSE HE WROTE OUR NAMES IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH.

Not every OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVER, reduced Salvation to Works Righteous
. Many came to realize that I cannot live up to GOD's Standard, I NEED A MESSIAH TO SAVE ME. OBVIOUSLY ADAM AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED THAT. Why is the BOOK OF LIFE even mentioned in the Old Testament? And this verse of messianic prophecy only mentions that those Jews who turn on HIM refusing to believe He is the Messiah, will be blotted out of the BOOK OF LIFE.

Psalm 69:26-29 (ASV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; And they tell of the sorrow of those whom thou hast wounded.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Add iniquity unto their iniquity; And let them not come into thy righteousness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But I am poor and sorrowful {Repentant over his sinfulness}: Let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.
Yea, there is already so much evidence for the transliteration of "ekklesia" as church and that's enough for me not to tackle bogus YLT.

Thank you.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#59
Yea, there is already so much evidence for the transliteration of "ekklesia" as church and that's enough for me not to tackle bogus YLT.

Thank you.
Whatever you want to believe, but I am absolutely convinced that in changing the word ASSEMBLY to CHURCH, we changed the original MEANING. JESUS said MY ASSEMBLY, not MY CHURCH, which leaves out all the OT Saints. All I ask is save a seat on either side of you on that heavenly Pew, for two OT Saints to rub elbows with.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
#60
AND Saying CHURCH is the Correct translation, instead of ASSEMBLY, MAKES GOD appear to be going back on his Promise to ISRAEL, when Mal. 3:6 says the LORD NEVER CHANGES:

Isaiah 62:5 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee; and
as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.