Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...
- Thread starter Katy-follower
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Yes, but this does not give us license to twist and spin Scripture like Hebrews 6 in any way that fits our personal fancy.
(Rev 22:19 [KJV])
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
(Rev 22:19 [KJV])
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
L
thank you for asking
no, that is not what I am saying
I am saying the opposite
I am disagreeing with those who seem to think that unless we cringe when we think of God, we must be sinning
there is just so much wrong teaching in these threads, that things could become muddled
we are not saved by works and we don't keep salvation by works
that being said, I pray God fulfills in me the good works He created me to do
and with that, comes a joyful heart and love for my Savior and consideration towards the brethren which do test my love on a regular basis
if I love, I love because Christ in God first loved me and has forgiven me and calls me His own
no, that is not what I am saying
I am saying the opposite
I am disagreeing with those who seem to think that unless we cringe when we think of God, we must be sinning
there is just so much wrong teaching in these threads, that things could become muddled
we are not saved by works and we don't keep salvation by works
that being said, I pray God fulfills in me the good works He created me to do
and with that, comes a joyful heart and love for my Savior and consideration towards the brethren which do test my love on a regular basis
if I love, I love because Christ in God first loved me and has forgiven me and calls me His own
(Heb 12:25 [KJV])
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
(Heb 12:26 [KJV])
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
(Heb 12:27 [KJV])
And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(Heb 12:28 [KJV])
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
(Heb 12:29 [KJV])
For our God [is] a consuming fire.
We serve a God that loves us, but this does not mean that He will tolerate monkey business.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven:
(Heb 12:26 [KJV])
Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
(Heb 12:27 [KJV])
And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(Heb 12:28 [KJV])
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
(Heb 12:29 [KJV])
For our God [is] a consuming fire.
We serve a God that loves us, but this does not mean that He will tolerate monkey business.
Lauren,
I am still trying to figure out why this post of yours!? Here is what "oyster 67" had written on his previous post:
"On your first point; Yes, I too find it hard to believe anyone would do such a thing. But I think the Bible (many places in the NT) says it is possible.
"On your second point; Just because I believe that salvation can be tossed away by a rebel does not mean that I believe in a works-based salvation. I do not. By grace and grace alone are we saved. All power is in the blood. There is no power in our works. I believe that salvation can be lost when a man begins to cultivate a rebellious attitude and refuses to confess and repent of that.
Lastly, I do not believe that every time I slip and make a mistake that I have lost my salvation. I would be a nervous wreck if I believed this way. I have peace and joy and am glad to have you as my brother. God bless you."
I think it is very clear from that post that he does not believe God has "a marker in one hand and an eraser in the other"?
I guess, I will just be honest -- I am very surprised at what seems like an accusation coming from you that is completely the opposite of what most of us non OSAS believe.
Are there people who live and teach the idea that God 'has a marker in one hand and an eraser in the other"? Sure are!
And I don't like them any more than you do!!!!!!
You guys really are not paying attention to what Paul was saying there in Hebrews 6.
Heb 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The matter is about those who literally turn away from Christ, knowingly. It's not about those in Christ that mess up at times and repent to Jesus. It's about one that once believed and also EXPERIENCED the gifts of the world to come, turning away from Christ Jesus, i.e., not believing anymore.
That is a particular matter of falling away, meaning to actually turn to the world that is against Christ. It has to do with the 'unpardonable sin' Jesus said that will not... be forgiven. Those gifts of The Holy Spirit are given to Christ's elect, so to be one of His elect and then turn away like Judas is... to fall away and commit the unpardonable sin.
Heb 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The matter is about those who literally turn away from Christ, knowingly. It's not about those in Christ that mess up at times and repent to Jesus. It's about one that once believed and also EXPERIENCED the gifts of the world to come, turning away from Christ Jesus, i.e., not believing anymore.
That is a particular matter of falling away, meaning to actually turn to the world that is against Christ. It has to do with the 'unpardonable sin' Jesus said that will not... be forgiven. Those gifts of The Holy Spirit are given to Christ's elect, so to be one of His elect and then turn away like Judas is... to fall away and commit the unpardonable sin.
F
Specifically it's talking about those Jews who were being encouraged to go back to the Law. It is a letter to “Hebrews". Jews whose whole life had revolved around the law, and who were being tempted, by judaizers, to reject the grace of God they had tasted of in favor of returning again to a life that revolved around the law.
And yes a person can be enlightened but not yet actually believe, tasted but not yet swallowed, and participated in but not yet been made a part of.
And yes a person can be enlightened but not yet actually believe, tasted but not yet swallowed, and participated in but not yet been made a part of.
Amen..there is a difference between "tasting" and "drinking".
There is a difference between tasting and drinking......Jesus knew of this concept too..
Matthew 27:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
[SUP]28 [/SUP] for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
John 7:37-38 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.[SUP]
38 [/SUP] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 4:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter on the grace of God.....I love that chapter...
The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers ( in which in the reading of this letter unbelievers would most likely hear this too as in the early stages of Christianity there were both Jewish believers and unbelievers meeting).
Heb. 6:4-8 talks about those that reject Jesus' sacrifice...then in verse 9 it talks about us believers..
Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
Here the author of Hebrews is speaking to the "Beloved"..that is us Christians that have accepted Jesus as our sacrifice...and he talks about "things that accompany salvation". We are convinced of better things concerning "you". - the believer in Christ.
He wanted them to know that the verses 4-8 was not for them..which is why he said.."..though we are speaking in this way."
He didn't want them to put themselves - the true believers in that category.
Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter about the love and grace of Christ for us believers...not so good for those Jews depending on the temple system.
Here below if you click on this link it'll take you to a post from mailmandan who gave an excellent breakdown of Hebrews 6:4-9. The last half of his post addresses Hebrews 6:4-9.
Twice dead
The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers ( in which in the reading of this letter unbelievers would most likely hear this too as in the early stages of Christianity there were both Jewish believers and unbelievers meeting).
Heb. 6:4-8 talks about those that reject Jesus' sacrifice...then in verse 9 it talks about us believers..
Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
Here the author of Hebrews is speaking to the "Beloved"..that is us Christians that have accepted Jesus as our sacrifice...and he talks about "things that accompany salvation". We are convinced of better things concerning "you". - the believer in Christ.
He wanted them to know that the verses 4-8 was not for them..which is why he said.."..though we are speaking in this way."
He didn't want them to put themselves - the true believers in that category.
Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter about the love and grace of Christ for us believers...not so good for those Jews depending on the temple system.
Here below if you click on this link it'll take you to a post from mailmandan who gave an excellent breakdown of Hebrews 6:4-9. The last half of his post addresses Hebrews 6:4-9.
Twice dead
U
Hmm I find this interesting, Heb 6 4-8 to me is what Katy-follower stated,
I would change the undone to redone from Katy-follower.
Verse 4 For it is impossible.... (those saved)
Verse 6 If they shall fall away (away from grace....... and then try to go back to the cross and be born again)
crucify the Son of God afresh ( as in he did it once and he does not have to do it again for you and you do not have be born again and again, because if you think this you are saying his sacrifice and your first being born again is not sufficient and you are trying to be reborn again) and put him to open shame.
Verses 7 and 8 he is telling them about the unsaved.
In verse 9 he is telling them indeed there are better things for them from the first principles of salvation to maturity.
I have so experienced this very thing, when you have fallen from grace you remember when you were born again and you want to go back there to has that first grace experience that was so wonderful, but Paul is saying that sacrifice that you believed in does not have to be redone you just need to move on in maturity and grab hold of the promises.
I would love you feedback G7 cause one has to read this many times. Thoughts! Do you see it, I find this so cool cause it relates directly to my experience I was trying to go back the cross and be born again rather than see I was born again I just had to grow up and move onto the maturity of believing all His promises
I would change the undone to redone from Katy-follower.
Verse 4 For it is impossible.... (those saved)
Verse 6 If they shall fall away (away from grace....... and then try to go back to the cross and be born again)
crucify the Son of God afresh ( as in he did it once and he does not have to do it again for you and you do not have be born again and again, because if you think this you are saying his sacrifice and your first being born again is not sufficient and you are trying to be reborn again) and put him to open shame.
Verses 7 and 8 he is telling them about the unsaved.
In verse 9 he is telling them indeed there are better things for them from the first principles of salvation to maturity.
I have so experienced this very thing, when you have fallen from grace you remember when you were born again and you want to go back there to has that first grace experience that was so wonderful, but Paul is saying that sacrifice that you believed in does not have to be redone you just need to move on in maturity and grab hold of the promises.
I would love you feedback G7 cause one has to read this many times. Thoughts! Do you see it, I find this so cool cause it relates directly to my experience I was trying to go back the cross and be born again rather than see I was born again I just had to grow up and move onto the maturity of believing all His promises
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Yes...Katy and I have discussed this and perhaps there is a dual meaning to it - depending on if we are in fact in Christ or to those that are not in Christ yet but still doing the Jewish temple sacrifice thing.
Which ever one is true or both depending on who you are - it boils down that the true believer that is in Christ cannot lose their salvation because salvation is not based on us but what Jesus did for us.
I can see people's minds being messed up for whatever reasons and walk after the flesh and even say that they don't believe anymore but in their spirit - the inner man of the heart which has been created in righteousness and holiness is not touched. People get sick in their body and die - they still go to heaven - I believe it's the same for people that are sick in their minds - they go to heaven too.
We must remember the heart of the Father and our Lord. God loves us deeply and is not looking for ways to disqualify us from being with Him. He showed His love by providing all that is needed for salvation to be with Him for all eternity.
We can't as an act of our "will" unborn ourselves from being a human born in this world. We cannot "un-born" ourselves either in Christ as we are born again of incorruptible seed - the word of God which abides forever.
We can be messed up in our minds but this does not affect our spirit where we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Those are my thoughts on it...
L
I keep asking myself why people read far more into a post than what the poster actually writes
I make a real attempt not to do that
however, that is exactly what you have done Chester. what is it you are looking for?
I answered you very politely and yet it seems you feel you have the need to psycho-analyze me
sometimes, people simply write what they mean
I think you are just digging for something
I think we should create an emotional sliding scale on views of faith.
On one end is universalism, where everyone is eternal and will end up in heaven.
On the other is unless you believe these things you will burn in hell forever.
On the slightly further in from universalism is HG. We are all saved if you have
believed in Christ, it is just a question of time and position.
Further in is faith, but you must show the work in your heart in your life.
Further is faith is shown by works, which you must get right or you are lost.
Further in is faith is shown through obeying rules to a particular degree and
belonging to this group and not that.
Further in still is versions of Judaism and Christianity.
The core assumptions build towards which of these views you accept.
Because the core position dictates the higher conclusions if you do not
move your base assumptions nothing else will actually shift.
This is why some adopt the higher values, but when they see the base
assumptions they move, which is always a surprise to those of the group,
but then that is how life works. Judas followed Christ because he thought
Jesus was the King to come the reign, but when that did not come about he
was happy to betray him.
It is also why I am not HG but traditional. It is not a bad thing to realise ones
foundations. Ofcourse they lead to the type of discussions and confusion you
see here, but that is the nature of the beast, religious HG believers always get
offended by seeing the truth.
On one end is universalism, where everyone is eternal and will end up in heaven.
On the other is unless you believe these things you will burn in hell forever.
On the slightly further in from universalism is HG. We are all saved if you have
believed in Christ, it is just a question of time and position.
Further in is faith, but you must show the work in your heart in your life.
Further is faith is shown by works, which you must get right or you are lost.
Further in is faith is shown through obeying rules to a particular degree and
belonging to this group and not that.
Further in still is versions of Judaism and Christianity.
The core assumptions build towards which of these views you accept.
Because the core position dictates the higher conclusions if you do not
move your base assumptions nothing else will actually shift.
This is why some adopt the higher values, but when they see the base
assumptions they move, which is always a surprise to those of the group,
but then that is how life works. Judas followed Christ because he thought
Jesus was the King to come the reign, but when that did not come about he
was happy to betray him.
It is also why I am not HG but traditional. It is not a bad thing to realise ones
foundations. Ofcourse they lead to the type of discussions and confusion you
see here, but that is the nature of the beast, religious HG believers always get
offended by seeing the truth.