A Woman Prime Minister/President

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,956
113
#61
How quickly people seem to forget history, including the ones in Britain.

Margaret Thatcher did not start the trend of women being in power in England.

In fact Elizabeth I, the daughter of the afore mentioned King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn (beheaded first of Henry's wives) took power from Mary, the oldest daughter. She was a Catholic, and tried to destroy the fledgling Protestant Church in England. She only ruled 5 years, but she earned the title of "Bloody Mary" for killing so many Protestants. Probably not the best example of an all powerful woman monarch.

Back to Elizabeth, she ruled 44 years, reestablished the Protestant Church without killing too many Catholic's, and was known as "Good Queen Bess." Under her rule, Britain's nascent empire was established during this Age of Discovery. In fact, the British Empire, in competition with France, Portugal and Spain, saw British rule in colonies literally expand around the globe. She tried to avoid war, as much as possible, but her defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 was one of the greatest military victories in the history of England.

Culture and arts flourished under Elizabeth's patronage, including William Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe. And remember, Elizabeth was not a figure head, but a ruling and reigning monarch who charted a course for England which established the might of Britain in the world. Elizabeth was an absolute monarch, and England and Britain benefited greatly from her leadership.

So after some very confused men kings, then Oliver Cromwell known as the "regicide dictator" by some; a mad King named George III who lost one of Britain's weathiest colonies over a silly dispute about taxation, (the 13 American colonies!); the crown finally returned to the safety and security of another woman monarch - Queen Victoria - Queen of the United Kingdom and Empress of England. Another long lived Queen, she ruled Britain for 63 years. Her reign was a period of industrial, cultural, political, scientific and military change. She oversaw in the UK a great expansion of the British Empire.

Of course, Queen Victoria's power was more limited than that of Elizabeth I, seeing as numerous male kings and Cromwell made so many mistakes that Parliament and the House of Lords gained more power, which formerly belonged to the ruling monarch. Nevertheless, Victoria's stability of reign was a time of peace and prosperity for the United Kingdom. Further, her 9 children and their marriages help unite the Royal families of Europe, and peace reigned not only during her reign but for many years after.

Moving along to Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, who was crowned in 1952, she still reigns 64 years later, breaking Queen Victoria's 63 year record reign. She started her career as a mechanic and truck driver in WWII before her accession to the throne at age 26. Certainly, Parliament now runs England, but Elizabeth as a figure head has been both a tremendous and gentle influence during the evolution of the British Empire into the Commonwealth. She brokered the independence of many nations from Britain, with grace and tact. And while her children have sometimes been noted for scandals, Elizabeth is a Queen that continues to reflect Christian values and uncompromising dedication to God, as Head of the Church of England. (Yes, please remember that Elizabeth is the SPIRITUAL leader of England!)

Of course, I disagree totally with this nonsense about all men being in authority over all women, on the basis of bad hermeneutics and translations of key scriptures. Certainly, men and women are different, but that does not mean that God never gives leadership roles to women, in the church and outside the church. Perhaps I will post and discuss what the Greek really says about "authority" particularly in 1 Tim. 2:12.

In the meantime. Britain, Canada and the other countries of the Commonwealth enjoy the leadership of a woman Queen, who as the head of the Church of England is the spiritual leader of Britain.

How do poeple forget these important things?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,956
113
#62
I'm sorry, I don't really understand the meaning of Hellenism?

But yeah feminism is really the polar opposite to complementarianism, it's the dismissal of God's order of separate roles for men and women.

Hellen or Ἕλλην was the name that Greeks called themselves in Greek. So Hellenism was to do with Alexander the Great, and his program to turn the known world into Greeks. And it actually worked! Most Jews, for example, lost their Hebrew to Greek, and Greek culture, such as gymnasiums, where young men would go and wrestle naked with each other among others things became more important than synagogues. (And this was strictly against Jewish law!) For a time, Jews were forbidden to circumcise their sons, because the Greeks worshipped the male body, and circumcision was seen as marring the perfect male form.

BUT - God used Hellenism. By the time of Christ literally the entire known world was speaking Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek, and evangelists were able to speak to a broad range of people in synogugues throughout the Roman Empire sharing the gospel - that Jesus died on the cross for their sins!

PS. I am not a complimentarian, and I am a Christian feminist! That means that like God, I see people - male or female, Greek or Jew, slave or free, as being equal in Christ. And equal to use the gifts God has given them!

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#63
He's not going to be in power for much longer and even if he were to be...America need us as an ally - sure we need them more but it's a 2-way thing.
Well, we really get to choose between Nurse Ratched and someone who makes Boris look refined, so it really doesn't matter. We can't get worse with the way we treat you than you're getting now. The UK isn't merely "Most Friendly Nation" status in the US. Your country really is our best friend. If our politicians ever said anything to put you down, the people would stick up for you. And, politicians are all about getting reelected here, so putting down the UK would force them to look for new jobs -- something most of them are opposed to doing.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,956
113
#64
Here is a copy and paste from something I posted here a while back. I also have done exegetical work on other Scriptures, if you want me to post it.



OK, one more time for those who were not here for the lessons on the exegesis of the Greek. And so sometimes the men will not learn, or be taught, because it is a woman who is neither stubborn nor ignorant, and happens to know the Bible in the original language.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεμτείν) in Greek. According to every scholarly source I have it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat." So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia.

And as far as the qualifications for deacons, the passage in 1 Tim. 3 has also been very poorly translated. For one thing, the word autos which is a close to HE as you can get in Greek, does not appear at all in verses 1-7. . In addition, it talks about "deacons" in verses like 1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12 and 13. The word in Greek is Διακόνους, or diakonous, which means servant in the plural. It is also inclusive, so it could well be talking about women and men deacons. Verse 11 is most telling. My ESV translates it as thus:

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11

But this is in no way true to the Greek. The word used is γυναίκας, or gunaikas which in the UBS interlinear, actually has the word "deaconnesses" next to it. There is no "THEIR" in the passage in Greek. It is not in any way the "wives of the deacons." So it does give the qualifications for a woman - the same as a man!

As far as the office of pastor, I have yet to see anyone post a qualification for that office.

The big reference is Eph. 4:11:

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13

There is no place in the entire chapter that Paul says only men can hold these positions. In fact, the Greek uses the word "Some" or τοϋς, which definitely includes both genders!!

So that is the low down. Once again, the Greek has nothing against women being pastors. The biases of translators has created this absolutely false doctrine that women cannot be preachers, leaders or in authority (exousia) in the church.

Really, what it boils down to, is looking closely at who really has "pasa exousia" ALL AUTHORITY - and that is Christ! We are all to be under the authority of Christ, in everything we do!

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#65
For me it's women wanting to practice a man's role, being on a par with men, giving up our femininity, being "one of the lads". It's not accepting of our differing roles in society, not wanting to be treated different or "like a lady" and feeling insulted when we are. In short feminism is masculinity.
Actually, I am a feminist. I want the obvious. I want to be paid the same amount a guy with my job gets paid. (I had a boss tell me that my co-worker -- a guy who did the exact same thing I did for just one of the two companies we worked for, while I did it for both -- "had a family to support." He had a wife. I have a husband. We were equal in that. Honest. Late 1990's and the schmoe was still giving me the same baloney women in the 50's were getting.) I want to have people judge me by my actions, not my looks or age. (And we just had proof young guys are still judging differently.) I keep getting dismissed because I'm stuck in unattractive clothes. People treat me like I have a low IQ. If a guy is in overalls, they automatically assume it's a fashion statement of a different quality. I want to be listened to as one automatically listens to a man. I'm not a guy. Thank God I'm not a guy. But, dagnabit, do NOT think of me as less because I'm not.

And yeah. It's still happening even now.

Truth be told, I want the same thing from people that God's people and God give me -- as a person. Not as a gender!
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#66
Oh my goodness :rolleyes:

Ill treat some of you like a guy.... stop your girly, crybaby whining
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#67
For me it's women wanting to practice a man's role, being on a par with men, giving up our femininity, being "one of the lads". It's not accepting of our differing roles in society, not wanting to be treated different or "like a lady" and feeling insulted when we are. In short feminism is masculinity.
Actually, I am a feminist. I want the obvious. I want to be paid the same amount a guy with my job gets paid. (I had a boss tell me that my co-worker -- a guy who did the exact same thing I did for just one of the two companies we worked for, while I did it for both -- "had a family to support." He had a wife. I have a husband. We were equal in that. Honest. Late 1990's and the schmoe was still giving me the same baloney women in the 50's were getting.) I want to have people judge me by my actions, not my looks or age. (And we just had proof young guys are still judging differently.) I keep getting dismissed because I'm stuck in unattractive clothes. People treat me like I have a low IQ. If a guy is in overalls, they automatically assume it's a fashion statement of a different quality. I want to be listened to as one automatically listens to a man. I'm not a guy. Thank God I'm not a guy. But, dagnabit, do NOT think of me as less because I'm not.

And yeah. It's still happening even now.

Truth be told, I want the same thing from people that God's people and God give me -- as a person. Not as a gender!
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#68
Sometimes I read threads like these, and think that my Native American great grandfather may have been right. He said that white people are crazy. They don't understand woman's place in the world. Woman should be barefoot and pregnant. Man should hunt and fish. I have to admit he practiced what he preached. He had 18 children by two wives, and spent most of his time on the river or in the woods.

Just thought you needed a change of pace. lol.
Two wives and 18 kids? Maybe he should have spent more time at the river or in the woods. lol
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#69
With 18 kids I'm not surprised he never went home. :D
He obviously went home 18 times at least. lol

(I'm more shocked at two wives.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#70
How quickly people seem to forget history, including the ones in Britain.

Margaret Thatcher did not start the trend of women being in power in England.

In fact Elizabeth I, the daughter of the afore mentioned King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn (beheaded first of Henry's wives) took power from Mary, the oldest daughter. She was a Catholic, and tried to destroy the fledgling Protestant Church in England. She only ruled 5 years, but she earned the title of "Bloody Mary" for killing so many Protestants. Probably not the best example of an all powerful woman monarch.

Back to Elizabeth, she ruled 44 years, reestablished the Protestant Church without killing too many Catholic's, and was known as "Good Queen Bess." Under her rule, Britain's nascent empire was established during this Age of Discovery. In fact, the British Empire, in competition with France, Portugal and Spain, saw British rule in colonies literally expand around the globe. She tried to avoid war, as much as possible, but her defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 was one of the greatest military victories in the history of England.

Culture and arts flourished under Elizabeth's patronage, including William Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe. And remember, Elizabeth was not a figure head, but a ruling and reigning monarch who charted a course for England which established the might of Britain in the world. Elizabeth was an absolute monarch, and England and Britain benefited greatly from her leadership.

So after some very confused men kings, then Oliver Cromwell known as the "regicide dictator" by some; a mad King named George III who lost one of Britain's weathiest colonies over a silly dispute about taxation, (the 13 American colonies!); the crown finally returned to the safety and security of another woman monarch - Queen Victoria - Queen of the United Kingdom and Empress of England. Another long lived Queen, she ruled Britain for 63 years. Her reign was a period of industrial, cultural, political, scientific and military change. She oversaw in the UK a great expansion of the British Empire.

Of course, Queen Victoria's power was more limited than that of Elizabeth I, seeing as numerous male kings and Cromwell made so many mistakes that Parliament and the House of Lords gained more power, which formerly belonged to the ruling monarch. Nevertheless, Victoria's stability of reign was a time of peace and prosperity for the United Kingdom. Further, her 9 children and their marriages help unite the Royal families of Europe, and peace reigned not only during her reign but for many years after.

Moving along to Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, who was crowned in 1952, she still reigns 64 years later, breaking Queen Victoria's 63 year record reign. She started her career as a mechanic and truck driver in WWII before her accession to the throne at age 26. Certainly, Parliament now runs England, but Elizabeth as a figure head has been both a tremendous and gentle influence during the evolution of the British Empire into the Commonwealth. She brokered the independence of many nations from Britain, with grace and tact. And while her children have sometimes been noted for scandals, Elizabeth is a Queen that continues to reflect Christian values and uncompromising dedication to God, as Head of the Church of England. (Yes, please remember that Elizabeth is the SPIRITUAL leader of England!)

Of course, I disagree totally with this nonsense about all men being in authority over all women, on the basis of bad hermeneutics and translations of key scriptures. Certainly, men and women are different, but that does not mean that God never gives leadership roles to women, in the church and outside the church. Perhaps I will post and discuss what the Greek really says about "authority" particularly in 1 Tim. 2:12.

In the meantime. Britain, Canada and the other countries of the Commonwealth enjoy the leadership of a woman Queen, who as the head of the Church of England is the spiritual leader of Britain.

How do poeple forget these important things?
I went with PM's and Pres., so elected officials.

And the crazy king didn't lose us over taxation (he cut the tax on the tea) as forcing a monopoly on us. We had some tea plantations making profits in the Caribbean, but were undercut on prices by the East Indies Tea Company, which was floundering financially. More of a governmental bailout forced on us. (I know. Now we just accept this stuff like it's good because we voted for those people.)
 

proverbs35

Senior Member
Nov 10, 2012
827
239
43
#71
How quickly people seem to forget history, including the ones in Britain.

Margaret Thatcher did not start the trend of women being in power in England.

In fact Elizabeth I, the daughter of the afore mentioned King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn (beheaded first of Henry's wives) took power from Mary, the oldest daughter. She was a Catholic, and tried to destroy the fledgling Protestant Church in England. She only ruled 5 years, but she earned the title of "Bloody Mary" for killing so many Protestants. Probably not the best example of an all powerful woman monarch.

Back to Elizabeth, she ruled 44 years, reestablished the Protestant Church without killing too many Catholic's, and was known as "Good Queen Bess." Under her rule, Britain's nascent empire was established during this Age of Discovery. In fact, the British Empire, in competition with France, Portugal and Spain, saw British rule in colonies literally expand around the globe. She tried to avoid war, as much as possible, but her defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 was one of the greatest military victories in the history of England.

Culture and arts flourished under Elizabeth's patronage, including William Shakespeare and Christopher Marlowe. And remember, Elizabeth was not a figure head, but a ruling and reigning monarch who charted a course for England which established the might of Britain in the world. Elizabeth was an absolute monarch, and England and Britain benefited greatly from her leadership.

So after some very confused men kings, then Oliver Cromwell known as the "regicide dictator" by some; a mad King named George III who lost one of Britain's weathiest colonies over a silly dispute about taxation, (the 13 American colonies!); the crown finally returned to the safety and security of another woman monarch - Queen Victoria - Queen of the United Kingdom and Empress of England. Another long lived Queen, she ruled Britain for 63 years. Her reign was a period of industrial, cultural, political, scientific and military change. She oversaw in the UK a great expansion of the British Empire.

Of course, Queen Victoria's power was more limited than that of Elizabeth I, seeing as numerous male kings and Cromwell made so many mistakes that Parliament and the House of Lords gained more power, which formerly belonged to the ruling monarch. Nevertheless, Victoria's stability of reign was a time of peace and prosperity for the United Kingdom. Further, her 9 children and their marriages help unite the Royal families of Europe, and peace reigned not only during her reign but for many years after.

Moving along to Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, who was crowned in 1952, she still reigns 64 years later, breaking Queen Victoria's 63 year record reign. She started her career as a mechanic and truck driver in WWII before her accession to the throne at age 26. Certainly, Parliament now runs England, but Elizabeth as a figure head has been both a tremendous and gentle influence during the evolution of the British Empire into the Commonwealth. She brokered the independence of many nations from Britain, with grace and tact. And while her children have sometimes been noted for scandals, Elizabeth is a Queen that continues to reflect Christian values and uncompromising dedication to God, as Head of the Church of England. (Yes, please remember that Elizabeth is the SPIRITUAL leader of England!)

Of course, I disagree totally with this nonsense about all men being in authority over all women, on the basis of bad hermeneutics and translations of key scriptures. Certainly, men and women are different, but that does not mean that God never gives leadership roles to women, in the church and outside the church. Perhaps I will post and discuss what the Greek really says about "authority" particularly in 1 Tim. 2:12.

In the meantime. Britain, Canada and the other countries of the Commonwealth enjoy the leadership of a woman Queen, who as the head of the Church of England is the spiritual leader of Britain.

How do poeple forget these important things?
Hey, that's quite the history lesson.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,041
113
77
#72
I went with PM's and Pres., so elected officials.

And the crazy king didn't lose us over taxation (he cut the tax on the tea) as forcing a monopoly on us. We had some tea plantations making profits in the Caribbean, but were undercut on prices by the East Indies Tea Company, which was floundering financially. More of a governmental bailout forced on us. (I know. Now we just accept this stuff like it's good because we voted for those people.)
It could have all been settled ... over a nice cup of tea!
 

santuzza

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2013
1,609
38
48
#73
I don't think the Bible specifically addresses this. Personally, I believe the Bible addresses only the leadership issues within the household or church. Since a political leader is NOT a spiritual leader, I don't see any conflict.

And I agree with hornetguy, Lady Thatcher was fierce. (And a Christian, I might add...)