Whats the deal with Catholics?

God4me · Jul 18, 2016

Any spoken word that Paul said, would agree with the scriptures, and unlike the Catholics, Paul wouldn't have said anything that contradicted the scriptures.
You cannot have the Catholic traditions, because they oppose the Bible, you cannot have any traditions or doctrines that contradict the scriptures.
So you can see how wrong the Catholic doctrines are.

DeaconMike · Jul 18, 2016

God4me said:

Dear God4me
A large portion of the NT was not written yet. THESS is the earliest letter that dates before any of the Gospels except maybe Mark and is certainly the oldest of all the Paiuline or Johnoniane letters
Nice try though!!
Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture form the same deposit of Faith. Just different modes of transmission.
Every belief of the Church is either implicitly or explicitly in Scripture.
You have an over simplistic view of Sacred Scripture and a lack of knowledge in doctrinal development. I would be happy to walk through any doctrine you believe is not in Scropturexeith you in detail if you do desire. As long as you have an attitude of openness to learn.
I used to be Protestant I know how you think. I understand how you come to your conclusions.if you open up a history book and be honest with yourself you will be in for a shocker.

valiant · Jul 18, 2016

DeaconMike said:

Unless you date the Gospels very early indeed the letters of Paul, Peter, James etc were all written before them and Pauls were specifically accepted as scripture before 70 Ad. (2 Peter 3,16). Probably the others were as well

.

that is what the scribes believed as well. Jesus said, you make the word of God void through your tradition, the Roman Catholic church has done the same

if you mean the Roman Catholic church that is RUBBISH.

.

I have neither. the first 500 years of church history was my major on my advanced degree,

I wouldn't waste my time in lies

I have studied the history in depth, not using roman catholic biased literature. I got not surprises.

you were a weird type of protestant

DeaconMike · Jul 18, 2016

valiant said:

Dear Valiant
I think you missed the point. Thess predates the gospels and sll of St Pauls letters

Jesus believed in the Hebrew Oral Tradition. Jesus was a rabbi and Christ quoted a lot from Heb Oral tradition not found in the OT. One example is the "seat of Moses". Not found in the OT. The apostles would naturally have found sacred oral Tradtion part of the continuing tradition. The idea of the bible alone and individual interpretation would have been foreign to them and in fact against Judaic teaching

FranC · Jul 18, 2016

God4me said:

We can't know for sure what you are stating.

My point is that tradition cannot be dismissed so lightly since Paul exhorted the Thessalonians to follow tradition.

Some of this tradition came from the O.T. But why would Paul be preaching teachings from the O.T. when Jesus was so mad at the Pharisees? Thessalonians and Corinthians is speaking about NEW teachings from Paul, the teachings and the traditions passed down by the Apostles, which were the gospel, not the O.T. - Gospel, or good news.

These traditions are neither Catholic, in your sense of the word, or Protestant. They are the Traditions of the church of that particular time. The church was called The Way. Acts 9:1-2

Then we became known as Christians and thus Christianity. Acts 11:26

After this the church became known as the catholic church. Catholic just means universal. It was spread throughout the world and it was the ONLY church.

We have much for which to thank the Catholic church. For instance, it kept out many heresies that sprung up in the early church and it thus kept the word of God pure, as pertains the gospel, and as Jesus intended it.

Protestantism has taught us to dislike "traditions". Instead they are what holds a people together and makes everything seem to be more important. I say "seem to be" because what we know is important anyway, but some need to "see" the importance. Some tradition, for example, has to do with receiving communion. Or how to pray. Or about getting together in someone's home for worship.

I really do suggest that you inform yourself regarding the history of the church. As I said, I don't agree with some doctrine of the RCC, however, I love them as brethren attempting to serve the same God as we do, with the faults they may have in our eyes - and do we not have faults? We don't even agree on whether or not salvation is eternal or can be lost.

And again I post John 13:35.

Fran

FranC · Jul 18, 2016

DeaconMike said:

Re the above.
I think it would be very helpful if everyone studied the Covenants. My study was very limited, of course, there are books written on this.

However, it does come through very well how the New Covenant is a continuation of the Old, or Mosaic Covenant. I studied about 7 or 8 of them, if I remember correctly. There are even more. Some believe the N.C. REPLACES the O.C. when in fact it does not. The O.C. was in force UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME. Jesus is that seed.

He Himself said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Fulfill just means to complete. The law was incomplete because it did not have power.

So yes, when Jesus quoted scripture, He was quoting the O.T. Sometimes I think we forget this.
I do, though, believe the Apostles were teaching a NEW way to reach God - not through rules and regulations but through love and grace and following Jesus.

This, of course, does NOT eliminate the rules and regulations. Their function changes. From how to GET TO GOD to HOW TO SERVE GOD.

Just a thought.

Fran

MikeHenderson · Jul 18, 2016

We are told to follow and do follow Traditions from the Scriptures.

But nowhere in the Scriptures does the Holy Spirit say Mary was without sin. The Oral Tradition of Mary being without sin is so much garbage. This is the point we are making here. So many Catholic Traditions go against the Truth in the Scriptures. I really do not believe when God told us to keep the Traditions that He was referring to the false Oral Catholics Traditions.

In fact we as True Christians are to speak out against the false Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church. As Stewards of God we need to expose the lies of the Catholics. We need to shine the spotlight of God's Truth on the lies of the Catholics!

DeaconMike · Jul 18, 2016

MikeHenderson said:

Dear Mike Henderson

Actually they do. It just that it doesn't come out very good in translation from the GR. technically Its a little complicated than that. The words from the angel Gabriel" state at the time Gabriel was addressing Mary she was in a state of grace ( free form Original and personal son) and it was in a continued status. It doesn't establish
"when" it happened. For that you have to go to Gen 3:15.
LUKE 1:28:And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”

according to biblical scholars the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would almost be expected to be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. In Hebrew culture, names, and name changes, tell us something that is permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (changed from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Gen. 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”) in Gen. 17:15, and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Gen. 32:28.

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. This means that the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was not only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace."

DeaconMike · Jul 18, 2016

garee said:

Dear garee
You look at the Scriptural evidence and you decide.
Why do Catholics call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? . One of the things he would have understood is typology.
We all know that the Old Testament is full of stories, people, and historical events. A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something in the New Testament. It is like a taste or a hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ’s revelation. Augustine said that "the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed" (Catechizing of the Uninstructed 4:8).
The idea of typology is not new. Paul says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come—Christ (Rom 5:14). Early Christians understood that the Old Testament was full of types or pictures that were fulfilled or realized in the New Testament.
Here are a few more examples of biblical typology:

Peter uses Noah’s ark as a type of Christian baptism (1 Pt 3:18-22).
Paul explains that circumcision foreshadowed Christian baptism (Col 2:11-12).
Jesus uses the bronze serpent as a type of his Crucifixion (Jn 3:14; cf. Nm 21:8-9).
The Passover lamb prefigures the sacrifice of Christ (1 Cor 5:7).
Paul says that Abraham "considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back" (Heb 11:19).

The Ark of the Old Covenant

God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets" (CCC 2594). God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (cf. Ex 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed a golden jar holding the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant (cf. Heb 9:4).
When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex 40:34-35; Nm 9:18, 22). The verb for "to cover" or "to overshadow" and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God. The Catechism explains:

In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and "overshadows" her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’" Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of Man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord "overshadowed" the ark and filled the tabernacle. (CCC 697)

It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.
God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex 25:8). God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?

The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the Annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (cf. Nm 10:34; Dt 33:12; Ps 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Ex 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Lk 1:35). (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God)

King David and Elizabeth

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sm 5:1-6:12).
David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sm 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sm 6:9-14).
Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:39-45)

Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. I have been to both Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), and they are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Lk 1:56; 2:21-22).

It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.
The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Dt 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark—"gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary."
While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries—no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple."
At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions—they were added in the 12th century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.
What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child" (Rv 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rv 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.
But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil)—and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rv 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.
John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about this passage in Revelation:

What I would maintain is this, that the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the "man-child" spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not "the Woman" an allusion to his mother? (On the Blessed Virgin Mary)

Later in the same chapter we read that the devil went out to persecute the woman’s other offspring—Christians—which certainly seems to indicate that Mary is somehow the mother of the Church (Rv 12:17).
Even if someone rejects Catholic teaching regarding Mary, he cannot deny that Catholics have scriptural foundations for it. And it is a teaching that has been taught by Christians from ancient times. Here are a few representative quotations from the early Church—some written well before the New Testament books were officially compiled into the final New Testament canon:
Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides" (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).
Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: "Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary" (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church echoes the words from the earliest centuries: "Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God . . . with men’" (CCC 2676).
The early Christians taught the same thing that the Catholic Church teaches today about Mary, including her being the Ark of the New Covenant.
SIDEBARS

Mary, the Ark As Revealed in Mary's Visit to Elizabeth

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant[/TD]
[TD]Mary: Ark of the New Covenant[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11).[/TD]
[TD]Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).[/TD]
[TD]John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David asks, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9).[/TD]
[TD]Elizabeth asks, "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).[/TD]
[TD]Elizabeth "exclaimed with a loud cry" in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).[/TD]
[TD]Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).[/TD]
[TD]The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God's presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).[/TD]
[TD]Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Mary as the Ark Revealed by Items inside the Ark

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Inside the Ark of the Old Covenant[/TD]
[TD]Inside Mary, Ark of the New Covenant[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The stone tablets of the law - the word of God inscribed on stone[/TD]
[TD]The body of Jesus Christ - the word of God in the flesh[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The urn filled with manna from the wilderness - the miraculous bread come down from heaven[/TD]
[TD]The womb containing Jesus, the bread of life come down from heaven (John 6:41)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The rod of Aaron that budded to prove and defend the true high priest[/TD]
[TD]The actual and eternal High Priest[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[HR][/HR]

Steve Ray is a convert to the Catholic Church and the author of three best-selling Ignatius Press books (Crossing the Tiber, Upon this Rock, and St. John’s Gospel). He speaks at conferences around the world. He is a...

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garee · Jul 18, 2016

Do they contradict the Catholics private interpretations of the fathers ?

The cause of the 40,000 various denominations is private interpretations as personal commentaries. It does not change the way we hear God. Every man has one like finger prints simiular but a little difference here and there. Do you think the Catholic fathers private interpretations are more infallible than any other opinion of men that comes from studying the scriptures to show Gods approval. Whose approval do the Catholics seek after?

Do we need a man to teach us?

Can you inform us of the fathers official stance on private interpretations?

God4me · Jul 19, 2016

DeaconMike said:

Thess wasn't the earliest book to be written, Paul had written at least Rom and Gal before then.
The gospels were already taught by Jesus, before Paul got saved.

As I have said, The RCC so-called traditions, contradict the scriptures, so they AREN'T from God.
The RCC traditions are devil inspired, man made doctrines.
The Catholics came out from a pagan church, and the Catholics still have pagan beliefs.

You don't find the following RCC doctrines in the Bible, [Not without twisting the scriptures or the Greek].
Mary, ever virgin.
Mary, sinless.
Mary bodily taken to heaven.
Praying to Mary.
Praying to the departed saints.
Mary or those saints praying for us.
Infant baptism.
Regeneration by water baptism.
Confessing sins to a priest.
Penance.
Purgatory.
Pope's.
Priests, [Apart from every Christian is a Priest unto God].
The RCC type of bishop.
Just to mention some of your erroneous doctrines that you don't find in the Bible.

It's quite obvious that you weren't saved as a protestant, and the Catholic teaching won't save anyone, So you aren't saved, If you were, The Holy Spirit will show you the errors of the RCC.

God4me · Jul 19, 2016

FranC said:

We can't know for sure what you are stating.

My point is that tradition cannot be dismissed so lightly since Paul exhorted the Thessalonians to follow tradition.

Some of this tradition came from the O.T. But why would Paul be preaching teachings from the O.T. when Jesus was so mad at the Pharisees? Thessalonians and Corinthians is speaking about NEW teachings from Paul, the teachings and the traditions passed down by the Apostles, which were the gospel, not the O.T. - Gospel, or good news.

These traditions are neither Catholic, in your sense of the word, or Protestant. They are the Traditions of the church of that particular time. The church was called The Way. Acts 9:1-2

Then we became known as Christians and thus Christianity. Acts 11:26

After this the church became known as the catholic church. Catholic just means universal. It was spread throughout the world and it was the ONLY church.

We have much for which to thank the Catholic church. For instance, it kept out many heresies that sprung up in the early church and it thus kept the word of God pure, as pertains the gospel, and as Jesus intended it.

Protestantism has taught us to dislike "traditions". Instead they are what holds a people together and makes everything seem to be more important. I say "seem to be" because what we know is important anyway, but some need to "see" the importance. Some tradition, for example, has to do with receiving communion. Or how to pray. Or about getting together in someone's home for worship.

I really do suggest that you inform yourself regarding the history of the church. As I said, I don't agree with some doctrine of the RCC, however, I love them as brethren attempting to serve the same God as we do, with the faults they may have in our eyes - and do we not have faults? We don't even agree on whether or not salvation is eternal or can be lost.

And again I post John 13:35.

Fran

You are part right, Because the Greek meaning for, "Traditions", is, Ordinances, but meanly Teachings that were handed down, Either by the OT Prophets, the gospels or the Apostles and NT Prophets.

The catholic church came out of a pagan church that taught heresies, And they till do, So what have we to thank them for??.

You must be a catholic, as they twist the truth.

mailmandan · Jul 19, 2016

DeaconMike said:

The Bible gives us no reason to believe that Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives us every reason to believe that Jesus Christ is the only Person who was not "infected" by sin and never committed a sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22). So ALL have sinned (including Mary) and come short of the glory of God (except Jesus).

Luke 1:46 - And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. Mary needed a Savior just like the rest of us. The Roman Catholic Church dogmatically teaches that Mary was conceived without sin. So, the doctrine of the immaculate conception is neither Biblical nor necessary. Jesus was miraculously conceived inside Mary, who was a virgin at the time. That is the Biblical concept of the virgin birth.

If we examine this concept logically, Mary’s mother would have to be immaculately conceived as well. How could Mary be conceived without sin if her mother was sinful? The same would have to be said of Mary’s grandmother, great-grandmother, and so on. So, in conclusion, the immaculate conception is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches the miraculous virgin conception of Jesus Christ, not the immaculate conception of Mary.

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

garee said:

Dear God 4me

Protestsntism isn't broken up doctrinally because of commentaries. They break off and start other denominations as a direct result of doctrinal opinions over major biblical views. Infant baptism being one of them
What the witness of the church fathers shows is the consistent belief and practice of the Church since apostolic times
Peace

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

mailmandan said:

The Bible gives us no reason to believe that Mary was sinless. In fact, the Bible gives us every reason to believe that Jesus Christ is the only Person who was not "infected" by sin and never committed a sin (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22). So ALL have sinned (including Mary) and come short of the glory of God (except Jesus).

Luke 1:46 - And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. Mary needed a Savior just like the rest of us. The Roman Catholic Church dogmatically teaches that Mary was conceived without sin. So, the doctrine of the immaculate conception is neither Biblical nor necessary. Jesus was miraculously conceived inside Mary, who was a virgin at the time. That is the Biblical concept of the virgin birth.

If we examine this concept logically, Mary’s mother would have to be immaculately conceived as well. How could Mary be conceived without sin if her e mother was sinful? The same would have to be said of Mary’s grandmother, great-grandmother, and so on. So, in conclusion, the immaculate conception is not a Biblical teaching. The Bible teaches the miraculous virgin conception of Jesus Christ, not the immaculate conception of Mary.

Dear Mailmadan
Mary needed a savior Lilke anyone. Mary was saved early. Read the post I address all those common protestsnt objections.
Peace

Ahwatukee · Jul 19, 2016

Greetings DeaconMike,

The above is not the belief of Roman Catholicism, for according to Catholic dogma, Mary was sinless, a co-redeemer, co-mediator, assumed up into heaven (resurrected), as well as many other false beliefs. If you are claiming that this is not so, then you are not representing the beliefs of the RCC.

mailmandan · Jul 19, 2016

Interesting article by Matt Slick from the CARM website:

According to The Catholic Encyclopedia (TCE) under the topic of Hail Mary, it says, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)." The Roman Catholic Church derives all sorts of teachings concerning Mary from the phrase "full of grace." Two of them are . . .

She was conceived without sin.
" . . . . It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin . . . ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722).

That she was redeemed from conception and was without sin.
"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin," (CCC, 491).

"From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace," Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC, 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life," (CCC, 508).

Catholic.com says that under "Full of Grace" that "These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ's role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven." As you can see, Mary is greatly exalted even to the point of having "spiritual motherhood of all Christians", whatever that means.

Also, since she has been so highly exalted, prayer is also offered to Mary. Catholics recite "The Hail Mary" which says, "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen." Prayer should be offered to God alone, not to any creature no matter how blessed, including Mary.

As you can see, a great deal is derived from the phrase, "full of grace." But, does the phrase justify such adoration and doctrinal proclamation? Can the Roman Catholic church rightfully derive so much from so little? In fact, is the phrase "full of grace" used of Mary in the Bible at all? The answers to these questions is "No."
The Bible and "full of grace"

The phrase, "full of grace," in Greek is "plaras karitos," and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament. Neither one is in reference to Mary.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).

"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation, it is Stephen who is full of grace. We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase, "full of grace," does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom" along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary?

The Latin Vulgate and other translations

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says, "ave gratia plena," "Hail full of grace." Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility. Unfortunately, this means that millions of Catholics will continue to look to Mary for help, not Christ who is truly full of grace.

So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let's find out.

The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear, "having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."

The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament, "And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

American Standard Version, "And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."

English Standard Version, "And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!

Today's English Version, '"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”

King James Version, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

New American Standard Bible, "And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.

New International Version, "The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

New King James Version, "And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"

Revised Standard Version, "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'

New Revised Standard Version, "And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

The New Century Version, "The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”

New Living Translation, "Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible, And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.'"

The Holman Christian Standard Bible, "And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."

International Standard Version, '"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word, kexaritomena, and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb., Str 5487, TDNT 9.372, LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6), as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1

5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485, TDNT 9:372, TDNTA 1298, GK 5923, Two occurrences, AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.2

Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.

Ahwatukee · Jul 19, 2016

Morning Mailmandan,

And all of this just because Constantine deemed Christianity as the religion of Rome. And with that came all of the pagan beliefs which stemmed from Babylon, such as queen of heaven and mother and son worship, which transposed over onto Mary and Jesus, as well as the pantheon of god's that were worshiped which was transposed onto the saints. We can add to that the ritual of the Eucharist, transubstantiation, sacraments and Purgatory to name a few. And what about that pagan Egyptian obelisk that is sitting in St. Peter's square? What amazes me is that there is over 1.2 billion who have been deceived by following after this counterfeit church.

garee · Jul 19, 2016

DeaconMike said:

Yes the difference is private interpretations as commentaries that make up the different opinions of sects. Not how long a private interpretation has existed. Being consistence in a belief that person holds as a private interpretation makes up all of the sects.

Apostate Judaism and their fathers has been around from the beginning. What qualifies the Catholic sect as having a better private interpretation of God's interpretation the bible other than the church around the corner?

What is the official Catholic teaching on private interpretations or private revelations seeing it is all one and the same ? What would make their heresies as opinions more accurate as to what God interpretation the Bible teaches us?

Do we even need a man to teach us or can the perfect law of God of itself quicken our souls and give us simply ones God’s understanding so that we can guard our hearts?

And it would seem you are using the word apostles in a way that does not coincide with its meaning and usage in the scriptures. All believers who obey the loving commandment to go out into the world and make disciples of men are considered apostles. Moses was an apostle as one sent by God .

So when you say apostolic times that can mean any time the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God sends someone with the gospel.

And if you would explain the Catholic fathers law in regard to "Private Revelations" which seems to be unheard of in the other camps.? What purpose do they serve ? Are they private interpretations coming from the mind of men inspired from the earth and therefore called an oral tradition seeing God is no longer bringing any new revelations.

DeaconMike · Jul 19, 2016

mailmandan said:

Interesting article by Matt Slick from the CARM website:

According to The Catholic Encyclopedia (TCE) under the topic of Hail Mary, it says, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)." The Roman Catholic Church derives all sorts of teachings concerning Mary from the phrase "full of grace." Two of them are . . .

She was conceived without sin.
" . . . . It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin . . . ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722).

That she was redeemed from conception and was without sin.
"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin," (CCC, 491).

"From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace," Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC, 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life," (CCC, 508).

Catholic.com says that under "Full of Grace" that "These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ's role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven." As you can see, Mary is greatly exalted even to the point of having "spiritual motherhood of all Christians", whatever that means.

Also, since she has been so highly exalted, prayer is also offered to Mary. Catholics recite "The Hail Mary" which says, "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen." Prayer should be offered to God alone, not to any creature no matter how blessed, including Mary.

As you can see, a great deal is derived from the phrase, "full of grace." But, does the phrase justify such adoration and doctrinal proclamation? Can the Roman Catholic church rightfully derive so much from so little? In fact, is the phrase "full of grace" used of Mary in the Bible at all? The answers to these questions is "No."
The Bible and "full of grace"

The phrase, "full of grace," in Greek is "plaras karitos," and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament. Neither one is in reference to Mary.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).

"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation, it is Stephen who is full of grace. We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase, "full of grace," does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom" along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary?

The Latin Vulgate and other translations

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says, "ave gratia plena," "Hail full of grace." Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility. Unfortunately, this means that millions of Catholics will continue to look to Mary for help, not Christ who is truly full of grace.

So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let's find out.

The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear, "having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."

The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament, "And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

American Standard Version, "And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."

English Standard Version, "And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!

Today's English Version, '"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”

King James Version, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

New American Standard Bible, "And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.

New International Version, "The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

New King James Version, "And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"

Revised Standard Version, "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'

New Revised Standard Version, "And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

The New Century Version, "The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”

New Living Translation, "Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible, And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.'"

The Holman Christian Standard Bible, "And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."

International Standard Version, '"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word, kexaritomena, and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb., Str 5487, TDNT 9.372, LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6), as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1

5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485, TDNT 9:372, TDNTA 1298, GK 5923, Two occurrences, AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.2

Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.

Dear Mailmadan
If you take the time to actually read and study what you just posted you just confirmed everything the Church teaches. " Hail full of Grace, highly favored one". Are all translations of the same Gr kekaritomene a perfect passive participle
Which translates " you who has been Graced by God". The Gr is a " perfect passive ". As you have so correctly confirmed. Which means it has a continuing on going sense. If it was in a past sense the Gr has another sense aorist which the Gr would use.

Take the time to study what you post

Peace

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