Mary, the mother of God

[Kool_uday85]

Kool,

I don't see how any of the Scripture you posted was relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for "soul communication" I've never heard that term. The Christians in Heaven have no body, (because the resurrection of the body comes at the End Times) but they are able to hear our prayers. Do you really think that when your saved loved ones die, they forget about you? God is Love, and to be in His presence, one must be love, too. I've seen nothing to suggest that Christians in Heaven forget about their families and fellow Christians. If anything, they would be more sensitive to our suffering and praying with us so that we can join them.

"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone ...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (Tim. 2:1-4)
​

However, protestants say that those who have gone on to the afterlife are dead. You are denying the Grace of God; for the Scriptures say the saved shall have eternal life. You're saying they are cold and dead though. You are speaking as a non-believer does.

Christians in Heaven are closer to God than we are. The Scripture tells us that the prayers of a righteous man avail much. What creature is more righteous than someone sanctified by God and in Heaven (where there is no evil) with him?

Saints are serious prayer warriors. I don't think that praying with the Saints detracts from the worship of God anymore than praying with friends detracts from worship of God, which I do a lot. Saints are not all knowing, but they know a heck of a lot more about this spiritual game than me. They are creatures. This does not take away the tremendous benefit we can get from communing with them. Catholics think "their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world" (Catechism 2683)


Scripture says we were "all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). Christians are one body which is not divided by death or anything else (Rom 8:38-39). Christians in heaven are still members of that body of Christ? We are invited to honor the "heroes" of the faith (Heb 6:12, 11:1-40, Jas 5:10-11). I honour those heroes and I feel a unity with them.


I feel as if I am repeating myself now, though. If you'd like some websites, Kool, I can give you some. But there is only so many different ways to articulate what I am saying.

Your reply didnt answer any of the questions.... It goes by using words like....
Do you really think that when your saved loved ones die, they forget about you? ???????? Think ??? Going by feelings???? No, Answer unjustifiable.. Just to write for the sake.. didnt give a justifiable answer..
Dude ur throwing scripture from some websites i think, cuz they dont justify any of my questions... I checked out the verse reference you threw in there.. (I hope you saw what the reference talks about).

I really dont care about Catechism 2683... Gods word is the bible... well unless you are die hard bent on taking what they say in websites.. And my questions were simple.... they werent any catholic or protestant issue.. Please dont feel you are repeating yourself... Because you really never seemed to understand what I asked for justification..it looks like website stuff....

 

[Jordan9]

Catechism 2683 says, "The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,(Heb 12:1) especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things." (Matt. 25:21) Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is like a Bible commentary (I'm assuming you've used a Bible commentary before, yes?) It is one of the most sure places to go if you want to know what Catholics believe about the Scriptures.

I'm afraid I am no longer even clear on what your question is. Could you please articulate once more what your confusion is about Mary being the Mother of God? My apologies in advance for the confusion.

Also, which of the verses that I shared are you confused about? You wrote: "Dude ur throwing scripture from some websites i think, cuz they dont justify any of my questions..." The problem is, I am unsure of what your questions are. Something is being lost in translation; either you aren't articulating them well or I'm too dense to understand what exactly you are asking

 

[kujo313]

Isaiah 7

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.


In the Garden, Man walked with God. In the end, Man will walk with God again. What happened inbetween is that Man fell and God made a Way for Man to be with Him once more.
Jesus said that the first Commandment is to love God with ALL our heart, mind, soul and strength. That leaves nothing for anything or anybody else.

Yet, RCCs will defend Mary and even give her titles:
Ark of the Covenant Cause of Our Joy Comforter of the Afflicted Co-Redemptrix Destroyer of Heresy Empress of the World Mary, Favoured Daughter of the Father Gate of Heaven Joy of the Just Health of the Sick Help of Christians Holy Mary Holy Mother of God Holy Virgin of Virgins House of Gold The Immaculate Heart Mirror of Justice Mother of the Poor Mother of the World (Nyina wa Jambo)Morning Star Mother Inviolate Mother Most Admirable Mother Most Amiable Mother Most Chaste Mother Most Pure Mother of Christ Mother of Divine Grace Mother of Good Counsel Mother of Orphans Mother of Our Creator Mother of Our Redeemer Mother of Sorrows Mother of the Son Mother Thrice Admirable Mother Undefiled Mystical Rose Nova Eva (the New Eve) Tabernacle of the Lord Temple of the Most Holy Trinity Treasure House of God's Graces Queen of Angels Queen of Heaven Queen of Patriarchs Queen of Prophets Queen of Apostles Queen of Martyrs Queen of Confessors Queen of Virgins Mary, Queen of All Saints Queen Conceived Without Original Sin Queen of the Most Holy Rosary Queen of Peace Ravisher of Hearts Refuge of Sinners Seat of Wisdom Singular Vessel of Devotion Spiritual Vessel Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit Star of the Sea Tower of David Tower of Ivory Mary Untier of Knots Vessel of Honor Virgin Most Prudent Virgin Most Venerable Virgin Most Renowned Virgin Most Powerful Virgin Most Merciful Virgin Most Faithful That's truly idol worship. Sure, RCCs would say that their giving respect to God's "mother" but that's putting the full focus off of God and putting it elsewhere.

 

[Kool_uday85]

Catechism 2683 says, "The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,(Heb 12:1) especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things." (Matt. 25:21) Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is like a Bible commentary (I'm assuming you've used a Bible commentary before, yes?) It is one of the most sure places to go if you want to know what Catholics believe about the Scriptures.

I'm afraid I am no longer even clear on what your question is. Could you please articulate once more what your confusion is about Mary being the Mother of God? My apologies in advance for the confusion.

Also, which of the verses that I shared are you confused about? You wrote: "Dude ur throwing scripture from some websites i think, cuz they dont justify any of my questions..." The problem is, I am unsure of what your questions are. Something is being lost in translation; either you aren't articulating them well or I'm too dense to understand what exactly you are asking

There is error in the commentary of Catechism then... well, you should notice for yourself after you read the bible... its so clear how unrelated verses are taken out to mean something in the so called commentary of catechism. Why would you need a commentary when the bible talks about things so clearly? Unless of course you want to believe that the commentary is the absolute truth. Even the commentaries by Rabbis for the Tanach and Torah totally rubbish messianic prophesies being fulfilled about Jesus and attribute them to something else... Why don't you believe those commentaries too then? I wonder whats the basis to believe such kind of commentaries (catechism) as you believe they are all true? Just a question.. My questions are quite well articulated, easy enough for a common man to understand... you could re-read them..I advise.. (Neglect the extra question mark symbols..)..... And if you have no answers to them please say so, its really pointless to just answer something for the sake of answering.

 

[phil36]

One of the main issues apart from praying to saints is, who are the saints.. the bible says all those in Christ are saints.. the Roman church says only those we deem are saints. in other words you can only pray to saints that a body of men have decided are saints.

The bible says we are to pray to God in the name of Christ by the power of the Spirit. not to those who are in Christ and certainly not to those that some men have decided are better than others.

Phil

 

[kujo313]

Amen, Phil! The RCC (Roman Catholic Club) has "saints" just like the Pagans and Greeks had gods. A god for this and a god for that. The RCC has a "saint of the day" as well as "patron saints".

St. Isidore of Seville is the patron saint of the internet. I guess he's supposed to protect your computer from evil viruses or something.

God wants ALL our worship and veneration. We're made to worship Him. We're supposed to love Him with our ALL.

As far as these "saints" go: Jesus wrapped it up in the parable of the ten virgins. We're to go where THEY supposedly went: to God, Himself. The RCCs "saints" are chosen by man. God's saints are chosen by Him and need to accept His Lamb Sacrifice.

The RCCs make up their own things and have the gall to say that THEY are THE Church.

(that's why I call them a "Club" and not a church).

 

[Jordan9]

Regarding the saints, the Church teaches that everyone who is saved is a saint. However, some saints have been canonized. This merely means that the Catholic Church has looked deeply into the person's life (often over a period of years) and have decided that that person is worthy of canonization.

Saint merely means holy one. All baptized are saints. But, we are the Church Militant (Christians still living on Earth), and as such we can fall from grace. It is those holy ones in heaven that are Saints forever. Thus, we can properly address them as Saint. That said, how do we know who is and is not in heaven? Can you judge the hearts of men? No, but through Divine Revelation, we can state that some people are without a doubt in Heaven. All other dead, we are unsure of their location.

 

[Jordan9]

There is error in the commentary of Catechism then... well, you should notice for yourself after you read the bible... its so clear how unrelated verses are taken out to mean something in the so called commentary of catechism. Why would you need a commentary when the bible talks about things so clearly? Unless of course you want to believe that the commentary is the absolute truth. Even the commentaries by Rabbis for the Tanach and Torah totally rubbish messianic prophesies being fulfilled about Jesus and attribute them to something else... Why don't you believe those commentaries too then? I wonder whats the basis to believe such kind of commentaries (catechism) as you believe they are all true? Just a question.. My questions are quite well articulated, easy enough for a common man to understand... you could re-read them..I advise.. (Neglect the extra question mark symbols..)..... And if you have no answers to them please say so, its really pointless to just answer something for the sake of answering.

My question is that I understand you disagree with the Catholic teaching, but you haven't said why. It isn't that I don't have answers (though I very well may not) it is that you haven't posed a question, merely bashed Catholics and went off on some unrelated tangent about Judaism.

A commentary is merely that; a discussion on and relating to Scripture. The Church has done this for forever, only now that we have the printing press and mass distribution, you do not need to be in the same room or even the same century, to have these discussions. Y'know what I mean?

 

[aspen]

Kool

You asked me to answer the many questions you posted on this thread, I am wondering why?

I have a feeling that you are only interested in testing my understanding of my own doctrine - you can rest assured that I have a satisfactory understanding of the Catholic Churches teaching on Mary.

One the other hand, if you are interested in learning more about the teachings for your own personal understanding, I recommend accessing the Catholic Catechism. I have said all I am interested in saying about this interesting topic, so I encourage you to seek another source for your personal enrichment.

Although, you may have been taught that Catholics do not understand their own doctrines (I mean, who would be Catholic if we actually did, right?!), it is not true. Also, the church relies on the Bible and the wealth of knowledge compiled by 2000 + years of scholarship that makes up sacred Tradition, so it is very likely that all the Is have been dotted and the Ts have been crossed. You may disagree with RCC doctrine, but it is consistent.

 

[phil36]

Kool

You asked me to answer the many questions you posted on this thread, I am wondering why?

I have a feeling that you are only interested in testing my understanding of my own doctrine - you can rest assured that I have a satisfactory understanding of the Catholic Churches teaching on Mary.

One the other hand, if you are interested in learning more about the teachings for your own personal understanding, I recommend accessing the Catholic Catechism. I have said all I am interested in saying about this interesting topic, so I encourage you to seek another source for your personal enrichment.

Although, you may have been taught that Catholics do not understand their own doctrines (I mean, who would be Catholic if we actually did, right?!), it is not true. Also, the church relies on the Bible and the wealth of knowledge compiled by 2000 + years of scholarship that makes up sacred Tradition, so it is very likely that all the Is have been dotted and the Ts have been crossed. You may disagree with RCC doctrine, but it is consistent.

I can assure you it is nothing but consistent, wow where do you guys get of.. the Vatican II issue and Justification is still pattering on and how long ago was that?

of course that is consistent.

 

[aspen]

I can assure you it is nothing but consistent, wow where do you guys get of.. the Vatican II issue and Justification is still pattering on and how long ago was that?

of course that is consistent.

huh?! The Vatican has not issued a statement on Justification that is satisfactory to Protestants, yet? Is that something I am supposed to be concerned about?

 

[phil36]

huh?! The Vatican has not issued a statement on Justification that is satisfactory to Protestants, yet? Is that something I am supposed to be concerned about?

well that is certainly true the church of Rome lost even before the reformation.

Anyhow thats not what I said. just check with all the debates and different stances people within the RCC are taking over this... but then again that wouldn't happen in the RC it is perfect it has over 2000 years of history and tradition all in lovely perfect harmony and no one disagree?

 

[Kool_uday85]

Kool

You asked me to answer the many questions you posted on this thread, I am wondering why?

I have a feeling that you are only interested in testing my understanding of my own doctrine - you can rest assured that I have a satisfactory understanding of the Catholic Churches teaching on Mary.

One the other hand, if you are interested in learning more about the teachings for your own personal understanding, I recommend accessing the Catholic Catechism. I have said all I am interested in saying about this interesting topic, so I encourage you to seek another source for your personal enrichment.

Although, you may have been taught that Catholics do not understand their own doctrines (I mean, who would be Catholic if we actually did, right?!), it is not true. Also, the church relies on the Bible and the wealth of knowledge compiled by 2000 + years of scholarship that makes up sacred Tradition, so it is very likely that all the Is have been dotted and the Ts have been crossed. You may disagree with RCC doctrine, but it is consistent.

Listen, keep having your own feelings... I am not interested. I have asked questions in the previous posts above.. And if you have any answers to them please reply. This is not to side with catholicism V's protestant... They are just simple bible related questions... and it happens that catholics say things.. so i want the answers related to them from the bible... A perfect biblical answer... Answer it or just say you have no answer to those questions. Telling me to read Catholic Cathecism is no answer...

 

[Slepsog4]

PSST!!! Mary is not the mother of God.

God is spirit, eternal, and immortal.

Mary is human and will die.

She gave birth to he who was conceived in her; he who preexisted as the Word with God and was God.

She was not the mother of that which preexisted her.

 

[Newton_Crosby]

I think of as "Mary, descendant of fallen the creations Adam and Eve, surrogate mother of the body in which God chose to dwell." The way I figure, the "overshadowing of the Holy Spirit" means God created an embryo within Mary, with just as much ease as He said "Let there be light".

Honoured to be chosen to carry, yet no reason to call her divine.

 

[Jordan9]

well that is certainly true the church of Rome lost even before the reformation.

Anyhow thats not what I said. just check with all the debates and different stances people within the RCC are taking over this... but then again that wouldn't happen in the RC it is perfect it has over 2000 years of history and tradition all in lovely perfect harmony and no one disagree?

You are setting up a false dichotomy here.

 

[kujo313]

Ever notice that the RCC (Roman Catholic Club) seems to give Mary a heck of a lot of credit for Jesus being born than God? Typical of a human nature to leave the Father out of it. In divorces, it's ordinary for the mother to be given custody of the children. The father gets visitation rights or "parenting time".
Jesus was born of a sinner who said she needed a Savior. That is part of the miracle birth. He got His "sinless life" from His Father's side.

 

[Jordan9]

Kujo, another false dichotomy. Jesus got his sinless nature from Mary, who got hers from Christ dying on the Cross, who did that because He was obeying His Father.

 

[kujo313]

Kujo, another false dichotomy. Jesus got his sinless nature from Mary, who got hers from Christ dying on the Cross, who did that because He was obeying His Father.

Again, you center things around Mary.

Mary was born with a sin nature just like everybody else. She was under the Law and had to believe like Abraham (James 2:23). Jesus, Emanuel, God with us, got His sinless nature from God.
He was able to bleed and die. He got that from Mary, who was 100% human.

 

[Jordan9]

I'm not "centering things around Mary" any more than admiring the Sistine Chapel is ignoring Michelangelo. Mary is one of God's greatest creation; any attention she gets is admiration for God, who is her Creator.

Though upon another reread, I think I might have posted my previous comment with haste. Jesus didn't get a sinless nature from Mary, He indeed got it from God, but Mary needed to be conceived without sin for Jesus to manifest Himself inside her.

Jesus could have came to Earth as a 7 foot raider with ten billion cavalry, of course, but He came as a baby to an unwed mother, and He preserved her form Original Sin both for her benefit as a testament of His saving power and love.