The Ultimate Condemnation of Believers Who Continue to Sin
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B
I reckon the OP's passage (original post) is pretty spot on, we must watch and not be caught unawares, we must persevere and run our race (although these things are usually taken as me trying to earn my salvation by the grace crowd). The examples within scripture of those who knew and had a relationship with Jesus only to fall again are to numerous to mention, but those who rely on grace and not Jesus words do not want to admit they are at risk, I know I am at risk. I know satan is furious with me, he want nothing more than my destruction, and not only mine but all who know Jesus.
So 'it' (old nick doesn't deserve any credit for who he is) will turn and twist the words of scripture to suit his own ends, he will turn the pride of those who think they can not sin into a stumbling block and an offence to them as they read it.
Any way, good post, enjoyed it, thank you.
So 'it' (old nick doesn't deserve any credit for who he is) will turn and twist the words of scripture to suit his own ends, he will turn the pride of those who think they can not sin into a stumbling block and an offence to them as they read it.
Any way, good post, enjoyed it, thank you.
U
Well while, the scriptures that absolutely affirm the eternal assurance of the believer who is saved by grace through faith believing on the atoning work of Jesus on the cross, are too numerous to mention I will mention some here.
No one ever refutes these, they typically misinterpret other verses and ignore these.
For a Christian to lose their salvation and be expelled from the kingdom…
1. God would have to forsake us, when he said he wouldn’t (Heb 13:5)
2. God would have to cast us out, when he said he wouldn’t (John 6:37)
3. God would have to condemn us, when he said he wouldn’t (Rom 8:1,34)
4. God would have to withdraw his Spirit, when he said he wouldn’t (John 14:16-17)
5. God would have to remember our sins, when he said he wouldn’t (Jer 31:34, Heb 10:17)
6. God would have to forget that we are his children, when he said he wouldn’t (Is 49:15)
7. God would have to blot our names out of the book of life, when he said he wouldn’t (Rev 3:5)
No one ever refutes these, they typically misinterpret other verses and ignore these.
For a Christian to lose their salvation and be expelled from the kingdom…
1. God would have to forsake us, when he said he wouldn’t (Heb 13:5)
2. God would have to cast us out, when he said he wouldn’t (John 6:37)
3. God would have to condemn us, when he said he wouldn’t (Rom 8:1,34)
4. God would have to withdraw his Spirit, when he said he wouldn’t (John 14:16-17)
5. God would have to remember our sins, when he said he wouldn’t (Jer 31:34, Heb 10:17)
6. God would have to forget that we are his children, when he said he wouldn’t (Is 49:15)
7. God would have to blot our names out of the book of life, when he said he wouldn’t (Rev 3:5)
B
I love what you have written down, and I hold to them all the time, like I already said I run my race and fix my eyes on Jesus. These promises are what hold my faith in one piece when I contend with my flesh. The Spirit is wonderful and the best teacher there is, through Him Jesus is able to let me know how much He does love me, through these promises I know when I slip and am in danger of falling I can stand and let Jesus do what He dose best, bring me through my trial and out the other side, Praise Him.
Else wise, No I am not going to get into it. Oh all alright then, just a little bit. Every time servants are mentioned, usually in parables do you think that those to whom Jesus says "Depart from me I never knew you" are not in Christ? If so then why are they servants?
The parable of the virgins when five got locked out were they not Christians?
Do you think it is possible to cast out demons without knowing or having faith in Jesus? Then why do you think that scripture says "Lord Lord did we not cast out . . etc" and they got the same answer "Depart from me . . "
All this adds up to a cognitive balance of truth and hope in Jesus. Yes I have certainty in Jesus, I know I will be with Him in His kingdom, but to keep this certainty I have to "pick up my cross daily", not once and then forget it. These are Jesus words not mine. Jesus paid the price once and for all, as for me, I am as Adam until I come into the Kingdom. It will not be until then that my corruption will be replaced with incorruption and my mortality will put on immortality.
There was a thread a day or so ago started by Chester; '
Can a Christian live the rest of their life without sinning?
There was not one who said a simple no, everyone danced around the subject as if sinning was impossible. I have news for you guys it isn't and if you think otherwise you deceive yourselves, and if you say you don't then you are a liar. Are these words harsh? Do I overstep the mark? These words are not mine although I do agree with them;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
It is how we deal with this sin that matters, the whole of 1 John 1 deals with this. It is the fellowship we have together and the blood of Jesus that brings us into the righteousness of Jesus favour with God.
This is all I have to say on the matter. I will not argue any more. I have purposely kept away from these threads, not because I wanted to but because the Spirit has told me to keep away. I answered the OP and you threw me a bone of discontent and I went for it, shame on me, and I bless you in Jesus name.
Else wise, No I am not going to get into it. Oh all alright then, just a little bit. Every time servants are mentioned, usually in parables do you think that those to whom Jesus says "Depart from me I never knew you" are not in Christ? If so then why are they servants?
The parable of the virgins when five got locked out were they not Christians?
Do you think it is possible to cast out demons without knowing or having faith in Jesus? Then why do you think that scripture says "Lord Lord did we not cast out . . etc" and they got the same answer "Depart from me . . "
All this adds up to a cognitive balance of truth and hope in Jesus. Yes I have certainty in Jesus, I know I will be with Him in His kingdom, but to keep this certainty I have to "pick up my cross daily", not once and then forget it. These are Jesus words not mine. Jesus paid the price once and for all, as for me, I am as Adam until I come into the Kingdom. It will not be until then that my corruption will be replaced with incorruption and my mortality will put on immortality.
There was a thread a day or so ago started by Chester; '
Can a Christian live the rest of their life without sinning?
There was not one who said a simple no, everyone danced around the subject as if sinning was impossible. I have news for you guys it isn't and if you think otherwise you deceive yourselves, and if you say you don't then you are a liar. Are these words harsh? Do I overstep the mark? These words are not mine although I do agree with them;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
It is how we deal with this sin that matters, the whole of 1 John 1 deals with this. It is the fellowship we have together and the blood of Jesus that brings us into the righteousness of Jesus favour with God.
This is all I have to say on the matter. I will not argue any more. I have purposely kept away from these threads, not because I wanted to but because the Spirit has told me to keep away. I answered the OP and you threw me a bone of discontent and I went for it, shame on me, and I bless you in Jesus name.
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L
well maybe in this thread
however, in the various other renderings regarding the same subject, I have seen simple no's posted...well you have to hit 10 characters so maybe a variation of no, in fact, I have done so myself
I do wish folks would not just lump everyone altogether and at the same time seemingly hold themselves off from the generalization
no worries...I'm that tough on me too
however, in the various other renderings regarding the same subject, I have seen simple no's posted...well you have to hit 10 characters so maybe a variation of no, in fact, I have done so myself
I do wish folks would not just lump everyone altogether and at the same time seemingly hold themselves off from the generalization
no worries...I'm that tough on me too
Jesus said that the sons of the Pharisees cast out demons and they certainly were not using His name either. MATTHEW 12:27
It is so vitally important to read all scripture in context...AS TO MATTHEW 7 ..Lord, Lord ..
Jesus said "clearly" that He is talking about false prophets in matt.7:15...that is the "context" of what Jesus was talking about when He said "not all that say Lord, Lord..."
Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:
"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...
( Jesus never said " I used to know you once."..He said I NEVER knew you at all...).
Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.
False prophets are religious people that are not "in Christ" -they are not born of the Spirit of God which once we believed in Christ - we are sealed by the Holy Spirit forever. Eph. 1:13
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
It is so vitally important to read all scripture in context...AS TO MATTHEW 7 ..Lord, Lord ..
Jesus said "clearly" that He is talking about false prophets in matt.7:15...that is the "context" of what Jesus was talking about when He said "not all that say Lord, Lord..."
Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:
"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...
( Jesus never said " I used to know you once."..He said I NEVER knew you at all...).
Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.
False prophets are religious people that are not "in Christ" -they are not born of the Spirit of God which once we believed in Christ - we are sealed by the Holy Spirit forever. Eph. 1:13
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
U
I never argue, only discuss. 
and hopefully persuade to the absolute love of God!
I always want to know why people do not believe in eternal assurance.
I understand what you are saying, and I am glad in part that you do feel assured that you will be with Jesus. I have met so many people over the years that keep wanting to carry the cross. I understand that too, we never feel worthy do we?
But it was not our worthiness that is the point really, it is all because of His Love. It is to God be the glory not to us be the glory!
Thank you for the response it was helpful for me to understand, perhaps another time we can discuss those scriptures you mentioned.
Be blessed!
and hopefully persuade to the absolute love of God! I always want to know why people do not believe in eternal assurance.
I understand what you are saying, and I am glad in part that you do feel assured that you will be with Jesus. I have met so many people over the years that keep wanting to carry the cross. I understand that too, we never feel worthy do we?
But it was not our worthiness that is the point really, it is all because of His Love. It is to God be the glory not to us be the glory!
Thank you for the response it was helpful for me to understand, perhaps another time we can discuss those scriptures you mentioned.
Be blessed!
Amen!..that is a great verse to show that they were in fact not Christians.
The very same Greek word for "lawlessness" is used by Paul to describe believers and unbelievers. Watch carefully here and it will bless you in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye ( believers ) not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness ( believers ) with unrighteousness ( unbelievers - same word as in Matt 7:23 )?
and what communion hath light ( believers ) with darkness? ( unbelievers)
So, here Paul calls believers that are in Christ - 1) believers, righteousness and light
Paul calls unbelievers in Christ - unbelievers, unrighteousness ( your matt. 7:23 lawless person that Jesus said to depart from Me ) and darkness.
This is why Jesus in Matthew 7:23 said "I never knew you"..Jesus knows His sheep He said.
The very same Greek word for "lawlessness" is used by Paul to describe believers and unbelievers. Watch carefully here and it will bless you in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye ( believers ) not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness ( believers ) with unrighteousness ( unbelievers - same word as in Matt 7:23 )?
and what communion hath light ( believers ) with darkness? ( unbelievers)
So, here Paul calls believers that are in Christ - 1) believers, righteousness and light
Paul calls unbelievers in Christ - unbelievers, unrighteousness ( your matt. 7:23 lawless person that Jesus said to depart from Me ) and darkness.
This is why Jesus in Matthew 7:23 said "I never knew you"..Jesus knows His sheep He said.
2 Peter 2:20-22 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
Those that escaped thru the knowledge of Christ were christians.
They were overcome..... by the entanglements of the world..... living in unrepentant sin.
It caused them to leave the commandments given to them..... sinners don't have these given to them.
These false teachers produce other false teachers. The best false teachers are former christians, for they still have their reputations as christians, to influence other christians.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
Those that escaped thru the knowledge of Christ were christians.
They were overcome..... by the entanglements of the world..... living in unrepentant sin.
It caused them to leave the commandments given to them..... sinners don't have these given to them.
These false teachers produce other false teachers. The best false teachers are former christians, for they still have their reputations as christians, to influence other christians.
This has been addressed numerous times with you but for the sake of the viewers - I'll answer. I also understand that everyone that doesn't agree with your view of scriptures is labeled a false teacher by you. We get that part.
As for your 2 Peter 2 ...here is the answer to that...that has been talked about in light of the New Covenant many times.
The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..
then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.
Even "IF" it is talking about a believer it still does not say they go to hell.
Here is a post #49 from mailmandan that dissects 2 Peter 2:20 down for us. Click on the link below for a thorough look at this:
Twice dead
As for your 2 Peter 2 ...here is the answer to that...that has been talked about in light of the New Covenant many times.
The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..
then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.
Even "IF" it is talking about a believer it still does not say they go to hell.
Here is a post #49 from mailmandan that dissects 2 Peter 2:20 down for us. Click on the link below for a thorough look at this:
Twice dead
See? This is EXACTLY what Im talking about. Turning the very biblical teaching "sin leads to death" to "living under the law". As if God never wanted us to follow the law. This is why I cant agree with the hyper grace theology. Clearly God wants us to obey Him. It is written in both the OT and NT, "Those who love me will obey my commandments". And believing in His grace is not His only commandment.
the only way that we could rightly call such people 'Christians' is if simple knowledge of Christ makes a person a Christian.
but i am not sure that 'knowledge' = 'faith'
wouldn't the paradigm you're presenting contradict other scripture, like John saying their going out proves they were never of us? or Paul saying God is able to keep what he has against Him, and will certainly finish the work He began, and that nothing can separate us? or Christ saying that no one can snatch us out of His hand, and that He will not lose even a single sheep?
wheat and tares both grow in the same plot. they know the same soil, the same sunshine, the same rain.
the goats & the sheep are in the same pasture. they know the same grass, the same wind, the same hills.
but knowledge doesn't make a goat a sheep. knowledge doesn't make a weed a fruit.
i believe that what is being said here is that, like Christ said to the teachers of the law, they would not be condemned if they had said "we are blind" but because they said "we see" but they did not -- it is worse for them. that it is worse for a person who has fully knowledge of who Christ is and what He has done, for that person to deny Him and reject the cross, than it is for a person who does not fully comprehend the gospel, who also rejects it.
that with more knowledge, there is greater condemnation for rejecting that knowledge.
but i am not sure that 'knowledge' = 'faith'
wouldn't the paradigm you're presenting contradict other scripture, like John saying their going out proves they were never of us? or Paul saying God is able to keep what he has against Him, and will certainly finish the work He began, and that nothing can separate us? or Christ saying that no one can snatch us out of His hand, and that He will not lose even a single sheep?
wheat and tares both grow in the same plot. they know the same soil, the same sunshine, the same rain.
the goats & the sheep are in the same pasture. they know the same grass, the same wind, the same hills.
but knowledge doesn't make a goat a sheep. knowledge doesn't make a weed a fruit.
i believe that what is being said here is that, like Christ said to the teachers of the law, they would not be condemned if they had said "we are blind" but because they said "we see" but they did not -- it is worse for them. that it is worse for a person who has fully knowledge of who Christ is and what He has done, for that person to deny Him and reject the cross, than it is for a person who does not fully comprehend the gospel, who also rejects it.
that with more knowledge, there is greater condemnation for rejecting that knowledge.
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.
(Ecclesiastes 1:18)
the more knowledge, the more grief.
(Ecclesiastes 1:18)
if you were truly reborn -- you were a dog and became a new creation, a sheep
. . . then even if you act like a dog ((because you're stupid, i guess)) are you a dog, or a sheep?
can you get re-re-born?
i think the situation is that there are two possibilities for a sheep which for all intents and purposes acts like a dog & looks outwardly like a dog:
. . . then even if you act like a dog ((because you're stupid, i guess)) are you a dog, or a sheep?
can you get re-re-born?
i think the situation is that there are two possibilities for a sheep which for all intents and purposes acts like a dog & looks outwardly like a dog:
(1) that's not a sheep at all; it was never reborn in the first place. it's a dog that is pretending to have become a sheep, and its disguise is wearing thin
(2) that's a sheep with mental issues, who does not realize that it is not even a dog anymore. it's going to have severe digestive problems because dog food is not what sheep should be eating, and if it doesn't figure it out, it could even die from what it is doing -- but it will die a sheep. a stupid sheep, but a sheep.
(2) that's a sheep with mental issues, who does not realize that it is not even a dog anymore. it's going to have severe digestive problems because dog food is not what sheep should be eating, and if it doesn't figure it out, it could even die from what it is doing -- but it will die a sheep. a stupid sheep, but a sheep.
From a prophet recently ...
“I am done with the lukewarm church. She beautifiesherself like lipstick on a pig.
She is better off drawing a steaming hot bath and scrubbing off the impurities that cling to her.
She has become ugly to me. She is no bride. She has become a laughingstock.
I will cleanse her once again from her iniquity so thatwhat is left has been cleansed
and made ready for the day I give her to My son, her groom for all eternity.
He will have the bride that He deserves and nothing less.
All else will burn in the lake of fire.”
“I am done with the lukewarm church. She beautifiesherself like lipstick on a pig.
She is better off drawing a steaming hot bath and scrubbing off the impurities that cling to her.
She has become ugly to me. She is no bride. She has become a laughingstock.
I will cleanse her once again from her iniquity so thatwhat is left has been cleansed
and made ready for the day I give her to My son, her groom for all eternity.
He will have the bride that He deserves and nothing less.
All else will burn in the lake of fire.”
U
Yeraza_Bats,
I understand what you are saying, if you are born again in Him, if you sin, sure you may feel sorry or sad about it but that is not how you will have victory over sin.
The victory comes from agreeing with God (that is repenting) that you are a new creation in Him and He will give you the grace then to have victory. It is very difficult to battle sin outside the grace of God. As well, repentance in the way you use it, as in very contrite, is not the correct understanding of the word. I would say that is Catholic Church doctrine to keep people in bondage, and I can say that because I was Catholic.
I understand what you are saying, if you are born again in Him, if you sin, sure you may feel sorry or sad about it but that is not how you will have victory over sin.
The victory comes from agreeing with God (that is repenting) that you are a new creation in Him and He will give you the grace then to have victory. It is very difficult to battle sin outside the grace of God. As well, repentance in the way you use it, as in very contrite, is not the correct understanding of the word. I would say that is Catholic Church doctrine to keep people in bondage, and I can say that because I was Catholic.