Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[PeterJens]

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:1-2

The law of the Spirit is far greater than the law of God, because the law of the Spirit means the
law of God is written on our hearts and minds. The law of the Spirit overcomes our passions,
and sets free love to overflow in everything we do.

if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
rom 8:13

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
rom 8:9

Praise the Lord, that we conquer the sins of the flesh, we purify our hearts,
the Holy Spirit dwells powerfully within and we love those we meet.

I thankyou dear friends for helping me learn the glorious riches we have in
Christ. It is by studying the right walk we learn how to follow, not by codemning
those who are failed and falling away.

Now if I sin and fail, please forgive me, and set me straight. I wish you no harm
but desire to encourage you to follow and listen to Jesus.

Everything any of us do can become a snare. But by listening and sharing we can
walk in the Kingdom and to everlasting glory in Christs name, Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

Under grace

I just thought, is this biblical.

who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:4

but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
Rom 8:5

if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Rom 8:26

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 8:38-39

Amen

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
Rom 12:1

 

[ukok102nak]

:rofl: as it is written
:read:
1 Juan: 2. 15. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[PaulMack]

We are no longer under the Law because the Law could not cleanse us of our sins. All the Law could do is point out our sins.

We are under Grace. All our our sins were washed away by the Blood of Jesus.

The Blood of Jesus did what the Law could not do.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

We are no longer under the Law because the Law could not cleanse us of our sins. All the Law could do is point out our sins.

We are under Grace. All our our sins were washed away by the Blood of Jesus.

The Blood of Jesus did what the Law could not do.

Very few people on this forum are advocating for a return back to the Mosaic Law... although I have seen it in other forum topics. This topic is not about a return to the Law, but many people malign those who hold a different but very biblical opinion as legalists and pharisees, something which is disappointing to see. What many of us view as standing against OSAS is very much a stance and view through biblical grace.

 

[PaulMack]

But this thread is all about the Law because Salvation is received by Grace and there are those trying to base Salvation on the Law.

Such as we must do this and we must do that to receive and maintain Salvation.

Therefore this thread is about the Law and Grace.

In fact most of the threads here have only two issues. Law and Grace. Its hidden but its there.

Basically its man made works versus the Grace of God.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

If you are claiming people are talking about the law, note that to say one adheres to the Mosaic Law, they say we have to observe the entire law by letter. This includes abiding by the feasts, sabbaths, ceremony, dietary law, etc. The only people I see doing this are Judaizers and some people of the Hebrew Roots Movement. They do not understand that the Law is a shadow of what was to come in Christ. We do observe these things, but spiritually, not by the letter of the law.

If you are equating law to people saying we need to walk in conduct befitting ambassadors of Christ and obeying His word and will, then this is actually a viewpoint of standing in grace. The issue of losing salvation is something contentious, but we can be derailed in the Sanctification Process, which comes after Justification. The end result of our race of faith/Sanctification Process is Glorification. Run so as to win the prize (this is not legalism but obedience and running by the grace of God). No one is saying just sinning a little here and there is the same as losing salvation, but continued unrepentant sin/iniquity has serious spiritual consequences. He is looking for a heart purposed for Him when He comes to gather His bride who is without spot and blemish, not sinless perfection which is also not biblical.

If you are saying that the only grace viewpoint is one where we are not asked to do anything beyond the point of justification/salvation and to say so is legalism and Pharisaical, this is not biblical nor God's grace.

 

[PaulMack]

What are we told to do after receiving Salvation that has anything to do with our Salvation?

What we are told to do afterwards has nothing to do with our Salvation.

What we do after by our Good Works has everything to do with our Rewards in Heaven. Also what we do after Salvation is all about our Sanctification.

 

[AuntieAnt]

Under grace

I just thought, is this biblical.

who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:4

but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
Rom 8:5

if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Rom 8:26

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 8:38-39

Amen

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
Rom 12:1

If you are already crucified with Christ...
If ALL of your sins are washed away...
If you are no longer your old self but a new creation...
If you are perfect in God's sight...

...then what deeds of the body are we to put to death? Unbelief.

For without faith in God alone, it's impossible to please him. God does not relate to us in the flesh but in the spirit. It grieves God when we don't see how great is his love and what he did to make us his holy people.

No matter what trial or struggle we go through, the only battle of the flesh we will ever encounter is unbelief, doubting God for any situation. There is nothing else we will ever have to battle.

The only thing we need to put to death on a daily basis is unbelief. The flesh wars with the spirit. In each circumstance we have to choose to believe our own understanding (carnal mind, common sense, traditions, instincts, opinions), or we have to abandon all our doubting and trust God 100%.

Romans 7:25
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your flesh will never submit to God. No flesh will never be pleasing in God's sight because God is Spirit. Why would God tell us to make our flesh clean? Your carnal outward man is spiritually dead. It's with the mind we serve the law of God, through the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus made us spiritually pure and holy and will always keep us holy in him. Each time we believe cleaning up our outward man makes us more holy, it is unbelief.

God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. If you do get tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

It's not an outward obedience. Don't put any faith in your outward man. It is a spiritual renewal. God has given us a new mind, the mind of Christ. And it's God who goes before us making a way and it is God who is completing what he started in us.

The reason God's grace is amazing is because it defies man's definition. Grace is a miracle.

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

They are explaining the Scriptures you are bringing up, but you are ignoring the simple clear ones. And then you attack them for doing what you're doing. Take your log out first.

You are spewing fear. You can lose your salvation you say. You are not kept by God but your own obedience. Why do you say them so people live in fear of sinning. But if that worked you would be the most loving person on the forum, but fear doesn't spur us to love, freedom does.

The Pharisees were petrified of sin. Everything they did was so they wouldn't sin. How did that work out for them??? Horrible. You say you want people to obey Jesus, but Scripture is clear on His command is to love. If you truly wanted people to obey Him why wouldn't you talk about love? Do a search on all your posts and see how often you talk about love. The actual literal COMMAND of the Lord.

Hey, are you busy this November? We're having this (s)election thingy in the US and i'd like to vote for you instead of the circus clowns riding their tricycles in the race. I'm not even joking. For real. Please think about it. Thumbs up.

 

[AuntieAnt]

If you are already crucified with Christ...
If ALL of your sins are washed away...
If you are no longer your old self but a new creation...
If you are perfect in God's sight...

...then what deeds of the body are we to put to death? Unbelief. If is unbelief to think my outward deeds are what makes me spiritually obedient. Any person in this world can perform good outward deeds. The only way to obey Jesus is to believe he is taking care of me and making me into his image.

For without faith in God alone, it's impossible to please him. God does not relate to us in the flesh but in the spirit. It grieves God when we don't see how great is his love and what he did to make us his holy people.

No matter what trial or struggle we go through, the only battle of the flesh we will ever encounter is unbelief, doubting God for any situation. There is nothing else we will ever have to battle.

The only thing we need to put to death on a daily basis is unbelief. The flesh wars with the spirit. In each circumstance we have to choose to believe our own understanding (carnal mind, common sense, traditions, instincts, opinions), or we have to abandon all our doubting and trust God 100%.

Romans 7:25
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your flesh will never submit to God. No flesh will never be pleasing in God's sight because God is Spirit. Why would God tell us to make our flesh clean? Your carnal outward man is spiritually dead. It's with the mind we serve the law of God, through the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus made us spiritually pure and holy and will always keep us holy in him. Each time we believe cleaning up our outward man makes us more holy, it is unbelief.

God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. If you do get tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

It's not an outward obedience. Don't put any faith in your outward man. It is a spiritual renewal. God has given us a new mind, the mind of Christ. And it's God who goes before us making a way and it is God who is completing what he started in us.

The reason God's grace is amazing is because it defies man's definition. Grace is a miracle.

I edited the part about the deeds of the body in the above post.

 

[ladylynn]

This is an interesting statement. Let me break it down,

Christians - believers
under grace - allowed to do what they like
not the law - hard impossible rules that just cause failure and condemnation

What this actually means

Christians - believers
under grace - there hearts are driven by love and the law is their delight
not the law - not ruled by sinful passions that dominate all their lives

Now the same sentence means different things to different readers.
And in this lies the problem. Grace only works if faith and love dominate the believers
heart.

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllll if grace ONLY WORKS if faith and love dominate the believers heart..... what for do you need grace!?? Sounds like you're doing fine without it!

 

[Stephen63]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Wow for a guy who is supposed to be educated and able to lead a church you certainly mucked this one up.

2 Peter 2 is not talking about believers but false prophets and false teachers. We might call them apostates today.

Peter is posing a hypothetical in verse 20 when he says if they have escaped the pollutions of this world they are again entangled in it.

Here is the point that has escaped your reasoning on this matter. They had knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but they did not receive Him as Lord and Savior. They exchanged the revelation of God for one of their own making just like Paul wrote in Romans 1. These in fact rejected Christ and professed a false Christ not the Christ of the bible. They are seen as tares that look like wheat but will be separated out and burned in the end.

The grace of God that saves also seals unto the day of redemption. The grace of that saves produces repentance and obedience. The grace of God that saves produces an irreversible change in the life of the man that receives it.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are clearly adding to scripture here, there is no mention of eternal damnation.

It is not that hard to see what is being said here, Peter is very very strongly warning against false teachers.
He is telling believers (those who were washed cleaned) not to get involved with them.

If you do get involved with them you will end up back in bondage. The bondage is many things because these false teachers speak great swelling words, so they sound really good so they will convince you if you listen and believe what they say.

There are more spiritual dangers for someone who is born again because it is easy to fall in error because the veil that held their eyes has been removed but without good spiritual guidance they can end up in the wrong camp of false teachers.

But if you start following the wrong teachers, it is very hard to come out from under them, therefore it is worse for you, you are worse off than before because you had a opportunity for complete freedom in Jesus but instead you have brought in sin and bondage, instead of living in grace you are living in your own effort, your life will be worse in some ways, because you know truth and love but you have mixed the truth in you with false belief and sin.

You will suffer in this life. You are going back to your old sin nature instead of living in the new creation.
That is the key. You will suffer, yes, for many reasons, but he is not talking about losing your salvation.
He is talking about this life and the consequences in this life of following false teachers after you have been born again.

You are adding to the text.

Ummmm, no, that would be you who wants to make everything about the Law. Why are you so afraid of God's grace??

Here agaaaaaaain is my post:

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
How can you be saved without the light of God? Likewise, how can you lose the light of God, and yet be saved? Here Jesus is threatening to remove the 'candlestick' from the church unless they repented...and I don't think He makes idle threats.


Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.


Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.


2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

ALL those posting against me have done exactly as I said..... attacked one scripture & ignored all the rest. They can't take them all on & they know it. So they twist this one scripture in 2Peter like a pretzel.

Roger says I "muck up" the scriptures. Undergrace says I'm adding to the scriptures. AuntieAnt says I'm delusional, fearful, that I called Jesus a liar, & that I'm trying to "shipwreck" their doctrine of salvation when their doctrine says it can't be done.

All of this because I posted those scriptures.

Guess what I'm gonna do about that? Why, post some more scripture that they hate & ignore, of course.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Here agaaaaaaain is my post:


ALL those posting against me have done exactly as I said..... attacked one scripture & ignored all the rest. They can't take them all on & they know it. So they twist this one scripture in 2Peter like a pretzel.

Roger says I "muck up" the scriptures. Undergrace says I'm adding to the scriptures. AuntieAnt says I'm delusional, fearful, that I called Jesus a liar, & that I'm trying to "shipwreck" their doctrine of salvation when their doctrine says it can't be done.

All of this because I posted those scriptures.

Guess what I'm gonna do about that? Why, post some more scripture that they hate & ignore, of course.

Why are you so afraid of Gods grace?

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Here agaaaaaaain is my post:

ALL those posting against me have done exactly as I said..... attacked one scripture & ignored all the rest. They can't take them all on & they know it. So they twist this one scripture in 2Peter like a pretzel.

Did you read post #224? I clearly explained 2 Peter 2:20. Now let's take a look at Revelation 2:5:

This is part of the first of the seven letters in Revelation 2-3. These were letters from the Lord to seven local churches in Asia Minor. Clearly the Lord wanted the members of the church at Ephesus to repent--to change their attitudes regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (v 4b). "Repent and do the first works" (v 5b). Works of love no longer characterized the church at Ephesus.

The preceding (vv 2-3) and following (v 6) verses make it clear that this church was not totally displeasing to the Lord. He commended the Ephesian church for maintaining doctrinal purity in the face of false teachers in the Ephesian church. However, "doctrinal purity and loyalty cannot be a substitute for love."

The question in the verse before us is the identification of the warning which follows the Lord's command to repent. What did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lampstand if it did not repent?

The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light-bearing and witness. Ephesus is a city now wrapped in the mantle of Islam. The light of the church has indeed been removed there.

 

[PaulMack]

2 Peter 2:20-22 is NOT about Believers.

Its all about those who have come to hear the Gospel, who have listened to the Gospel, but who have rejected the Gospel and walked away. This is who Peter is talking about.

If they never had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, then they can boast before God they never knew the Truth. But since they have known the Truth and have walked away from the Truth they now have no excuse before God for rejecting the Gospel.

This is what Peter is saying. These verses do not apply to the Children of God. They only apply to those who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

 

[PaulMack]

But then again Salvation is received only by the Grace of God and NOT by knowing the Truth.

These are those who God from the Beginning did not choose. Since they never were chosen by God, they never were destined to receive Salvation.

God looked down History even before He created anything and said these people are not chosen and will never receive Salvation.

 

[Yonah]

There is not one thing anti-Messiah about obeying His commands, all this nonsense about the Torah longer being valid for believers today is error that leads many to think they can do what seems right in their own eyes and still be "saved" the enemy of our souls had been tireless at presenting mankind and "easier"way, which in reality is the way that leads to death.
Please see Rev. 14:12, this verse ,makes it very clear that the teaching and instructions given to mankind were never negated, in fact they were expounded upon more perfectly. you must ask yourself this: was rev. 14:12 in its context referring to the saints AFTER the Saviors death and resurrection or before? if after then how can this false doctrine of all the law is gone now be true? there are others but this one expresses it best.
We all must act according to how we are led to, and each will be held to the great standard not mans opinions or suppositions, no matter how old or how many times they are repeated, there are many well meaning sincere folks who think they have the truth but do not, (I'm sure we all do in varying degrees) however to look upon others who walk in obedience to the commands as evil in any way is wrong on many levels, if you think there is error I council you to PRAY and seek the Fathers face and allow him to guide your course of action (if any) however to judge another in your heart as in bondage or lawless or whatever it may, you might do well to consider this: James 4:11 this response is not to be combative or condemning to anyone but rather a plea for mercy and love that the Father so graciously pours upon all those who love Him.

 

[FreeNChrist]

There is not one thing anti-Messiah about obeying His commands, all this nonsense about the Torah longer being valid for believers today is error that leads many to think they can do what seems right in their own eyes and still be "saved" the enemy of our souls had been tireless at presenting mankind and "easier"way, which in reality is the way that leads to death.
Please see Rev. 14:12, this verse ,makes it very clear that the teaching and instructions given to mankind were never negated, in fact they were expounded upon more perfectly. you must ask yourself this: was rev. 14:12 in its context referring to the saints AFTER the Saviors death and resurrection or before? if after then how can this false doctrine of all the law is gone now be true? there are others but this one expresses it best.
We all must act according to how we are led to, and each will be held to the great standard not mans opinions or suppositions, no matter how old or how many times they are repeated, there are many well meaning sincere folks who think they have the truth but do not, (I'm sure we all do in varying degrees) however to look upon others who walk in obedience to the commands as evil in any way is wrong on many levels, if you think there is error I council you to PRAY and seek the Fathers face and allow him to guide your course of action (if any) however to judge another in your heart as in bondage or lawless or whatever it may, you might do well to consider this: James 4:11 this response is not to be combative or condemning to anyone but rather a plea for mercy and love that the Father so graciously pours upon all those who love Him.

Christians are not under the Law. <<<<< that's a period.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Why are you so afraid of Gods grace?

Some people just prefer to remain on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and misery loves company.