Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[PeterJens]

Denial of the inner self

I came across one individual who liked to put people straight. They would choose a weakness
and hammer it home. I asked this person how they felt inside. I was told this was none of my
business, and how dare I suggest I knew anything that was going on inside them.

When the subject came up of the heart, being driven by the heart, they said from the heart only
comes evil. When I talked about love, I was told the church had moved on from tea parties to
power, signs and wonders.

Jesus calls us to love God from the heart.
To forgive people from the heart.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.
Matt 18:35

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Matt 11:29

But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them.
Matt 15:18

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Luke 6:45

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14:27

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Rev 3:20

What is in our hearts is between us and God. All I can testify is Jesus purified my heart.
So I bring this hope and good news. You too can find peace in your soul if you open the
door and let Jesus in.

Walking with Jesus has always been about putting those things that trouble us most into
Jesus's hands and admiting we are not anything like what we think we are.

It strikes me those who so quickly claim others are being self-righteous by there complaints
and denials of needs within, are themselves actually not being honest about where they stand.

Now please understand me. I am not condemning anyone. I sin and am in need to forgiveness
from Christ, to repent and confess and accept the Lords payment. But I know if we deny that
which is real in ourselves we deceive ourselves and the fruit in our lives is serious issues.

One big issue for me is in accepting the situation with business, though I may dream of success,
and be successful it does not mean it will happen, I have to humble myself and accept the Lords hand,
and rejoice in the blessing I have. My riches are in His heart, and walking in His love and purity.
That is reward enough.

 

[LaurenTM]

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
(from Rev. 7)
​

God's Spirit is active in salvation, convicting the world of their sin and producing His Fruit of love and service in believers to open doors to share His Good News with the Lost.




Receive, yes, keep, no:

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (from Phil. 1)

​

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (from Eph. 1)​

The Good News doesn't become Bad News after we receive Christ - we do not have to earn the maintenance of what God has freely given to us. No, as God's children, He loves us, nurtures us, and trains us. And the more we learn to trust and rest in Him, more and more of His Fruit is produced in/through us, which in turn furthers the Kingdom of God.

-JGIG

there are some truly amazing and descriptive scenes in Revelation

The Good News doesn't become Bad News after we receive Christ - we do not have to earn the maintenance of what God has freely given to us. No, as God's children, He loves us, nurtures us, and trains us. And the more we learn to trust and rest in Him, more and more of His Fruit is produced in/through us, which in turn furthers the Kingdom of God.

-JGIG

Yes!!

 

[LaurenTM]

I do not understand how homosexual is a slur. Are we offended to be called heterosexual? Well, it has been a few years since I hung out with my gay friends on any kind of regular basis, but I never heard them say anything about the word homosexual being an affront to them. A lesbian friend of mine used to lend me her car when she went out of town, and she had a sticker on the back proclaiming that she was a lesbian Wiccan, so I can't see her being offended by the word lesbian either. Have things really changed that much recently? One thing I do know is that sex and gender should not be confused. For instance, people used to say sexual reassignment when it is gender reassignment, in the case of people undergoing surgery. Sorry for responding to this issue here, I do not mean to derail the thread...

no problem Magenta

I have come to appreciate considerate exchange in any thread here, even if somewhat off topic

 

[LaurenTM]

Try reading what Paul said again. He said, "may"... be saved. That's conditional. The KJV translators wouldn't have made that conditional on a whim.

speaking of off topic

your choice of speaking continually about hyper grace here is off topic and you have ignored all denials to the continual barrage of those who attempt to disparage the grace of God as we view it and practice in our lives

now, if you do not understand what is being said here, and you do not apparently...you just wish to make your overstated complaints that you understand better than the poster what is being said...just find one of those hyper grace preachers and take a good hard look as to whether or not they condone sin

really

 

[Magenta]

no problem Magenta

I have come to appreciate considerate exchange in any thread here, even if somewhat off topic

That is very gracious of you, thank you

 

[LaurenTM]

That is very gracious of you, thank you

well thank you

but I honestly feel that way

thanks for saying so though!

 

[garee]

Well, some months ago, I quit carrying a pistol because of things brought up here.

And just a day ago, I was brought to the realization that me calling same-sex people "Homosexual" was really just a veiled slam, and I determined to, instead, refer to them as GAY, even though it is difficult for me to do.

So its easier to follow the what they call Gay and God who designed the word a calls homosexual. Would calling homosexual them be persecuting them? I am not saying we should but would perhaps. What ever happened to the word sin, people begun to thin skinned? .

 

[UnderGrace]

Try reading what Paul said again. He said, "may"... be saved. That's conditional. The KJV translators wouldn't have made that conditional on a whim.

In Verse one Paul writes "There is sexual immorality among you...that a man has his father's wife."

Paul calls him a man, not a brother which indicates that Paul is not sure if he is a brother/born again or not.
Paul is telling them deal with this situation.

Either way Paul is saying may because his knowledge of this man is limited as to whether is in or is not in Jesus, Paul is not making a statement about our security in Jesus.

If this man is not saved then he may be saved if you deal with his behavior otherwise he will be like leaven that will affect everyone.

This whole piece has nothing to do with our security in Jesus, again you are reading into the text.

 

[LaurenTM]

So its easier to follow the what they call Gay and God who designed the word a calls homosexual. Would calling homosexual them be persecuting them? I am not saying we should but would perhaps. What ever happened to the word sin, people begun to thin skinned? .

yes indeedy do

whatever DID happen to the word sin cause that is what this op was actually about!

I get the impression you carry special little darts around to throw at other believers...you know , just the little snipey variety that are not too heavy; the generic kind that do not take too much effort to throw

I have noticed that you do not actually comment, but just disparage OTHER people's contributions

what happened to the word sin...ironic

 

[JGIG]

But Jesus tells us to "sin no more" and to flee from it and not to live sinful lives. Sinning freely and not even trying to live by Gods will while going "Jesus will save me!" doesn't seem right. I know people like that, and they have caused a lot of problems for people I know.

Yes no one deserves salvation, and we are saved by grace. But that isn't the same as God telling us we can just go nuts and do whatever we want and hell be okay with it.

Vigil, let me introduce you to Cee:

Freedom is scary, if we don't completely comprehend the transformative power of His grace.

Here's Paul correcting people in sin:

11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.

His focus: Sure, you can do all things, but why would you? Unless you've forgotten who you are in Christ.

So-called 'Hyper Grace' does NOT teach that sinning is okay - how many, many times we've had to debunk this false accusation!

What the simple truth of the Gospel of Grace DOES say is that for those who are in Christ, when you do sin, God is not counting your sins against you (2 Cor. 5:18-19) - all eternal punishment for sins was meted out at the Cross. Will the believer suffer earthly consequences for sinning? Of course! Sinning is dumb and destructive! If you're sinning, stop it! No good comes from it! It does harm to you and to those around you and does zero to further the Kingdom!​

Is it good to confess your sins? Yes! We should confess our sins one to another for prayer and accountability and healing (James 5), and to ask those we've sinned against for forgiveness when necessary. Hebrews 4 exhorts us to "Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."

We can always confidently confess our sins to God - but we who are in Christ don't need to confess sins in order to receive forgiveness - we are completely forgiven in Christ! 1 John 1:9 tells us that when we, as sinners, confess our sins, that God is faithful and JUST to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. We become a forgiven person, not a person who must repeatedly seek forgiveness from God for future sinning. The Work of Christ was complete - again, all eternal punishment for sins was meted out at the Cross. For the believer to have eternal punishment for sins hanging over their heads would make God UNJUST, because for God to punish the same sins twice would be an unjust act. Christ on the Cross was the propitiation for our sins - God's wrath was FULLY SATISFIED by Christ on our behalf.​

Some will retort with, "But only our past sins were forgiven!", yet the Work of Christ on the Cross reached into the future to provide forgiveness for all tribes and all nations for all time, yes? And the letter to the Hebrews tells us that Christ's Blood was shed ONE time - He's not coming back to die for more sins to procure more forgiveness. No, what He accomplished at the Cross was ENOUGH. It is a FINISHED Work. As our Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ intercedes for us when we do sin, declaring us forgiven by His Blood and righteous in Him. When we received Christ, we received those free gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life in Him (see Rom. 3-10).

No, we come to a throne of grace, not to seek forgiveness for sins already forgiven, but so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Contextually, that passage is saying that God already knows all of our actions, thoughts, and intents - yet He still invites us to His throne of grace, and we are to come with CONFIDENCE, because we are already completely forgiven!​

-JGIG

 

[UnderGrace]

So-called 'Hyper Grace' does NOT teach that sinning is okay - how many, many times we've had to debunk this false accusation!

Yes how many times, indeed???

 

[ladylynn]

proof I am on here too much.... LOL!

HA! HA! HOO! HEE! HA! HA!!!! HEE!! HO HEE!! HA!! HA! HA!

 

[ukok102nak]

:rofl: as it is written
:read:
1 Juan: 2. 15. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[JGIG]

Thank you.

I am starting to understand better what is going on.

The emphasis is being put on what is wrong instead of what is right

This, I am becoming convinced, is a ploy of the devil and many are falling for it

People obviously do not even know what is right so how are they going to be able to know what is wrong

From the responses all over this forum, it is plain to see that people do not understand grace; therefore they pick apart anything they view as a threat to their understanding as though it were an attack on the gospel itself

This is a really good point: "From the responses all over this forum, it is plain to see that people do not understand grace; therefore they pick apart anything they view as a threat to their understanding as though it were an attack on the gospel itself."

To a person, I can confidently say that each one who has come out swinging hard against so-called 'Hyper-Grace' cannot accurately articulate what the Grace position actually is. This includes the theologian Dr. Michael Brown, the one who coined the term, 'Hyper-Grace', with whom I've conversed online 3 or 4 times. When the misrepresentations that he was promulgating online were pointed out to him, using quotes from his book and then presented with what 'Hyper Gracers' actually teach, he suddenly became very busy and could not/would not discuss the issues further.

CONSISTENTLY we see statements given as facts about Grace that we do not believe nor do we teach. Furthermore, those who rail against us 'quote' teachers, but only what they've heard others who are against those teachers say those teachers have said, but won't go to the source to see what those teachers have actually said, claiming they 'don't have time for that'. Well if you don't have time to check your sources, bow out. You have NO business spreading inaccuracies.

I've done the dance against true heresy - the modern Judaizers of the Hebrew Roots Movement. I have most of an entire site addressing the false beliefs of the HRM, and when refuting a false belief, not only do I make sure that I have a thorough understanding of what they actually believe from many sources within the movement, but I also make sure to quote, providing links and context to the reader to those sources so that they may consider the evidence and decide for themselves. That is not happening here.

Grace777x70 addresses one tactic used and put it this way so well in another thread, regarding the straw-man approach:

It's like some saying "The sky is blue...isn't it lovely?"...instead someone comes and says "What?..you are a false teacher ..the sky is not green...everyone knows it's blue...."​

That happens a LOT in this debate, indicating that those who are heresy hunting the Grace of God don't really understand the issue. I read this quote earlier today from an article posted on FB:

"As any debate club veteran knows, if you can't make your opponent's argument for them, you don't truly grasp the issue." (source)​

I have tons more respect for someone who understands the issues and simply disagrees, but much less respect for those who demagogue without understanding simply to reinforce their position. When someone demagogues, they show that their penchant is more for their position than for what is TRUE.


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Hyper-grace tells us its okay to go nuts and be righteous. It's about FREEDOM. Anything that doesn't feel like freedom should be carefully inspected. Because where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.

Of course freedom is scary to those who don't COMPLETELY comprehend and embrace the transformative power of grace. Religion is about control. Jesus came to set us free.

When religion sees a problem, it thinks we need more control.

Religion comes from fear.

The idea that people will be "mislead" when taught freedom in Christ is one of the tools of religion's armory.

But, it's that moment someone says, "Wait a minute, I don't have to follow all these rules for God to love me?"

Yet chooses to follow God anyway that we really see the power of the cross.

Couldn't give you reps, so . . .

Cookies for you!

 

[JGIG]

(No, whether you believe me or not. I sincerely came upon this thread, not knowing ANYTHING about "hypergrace" or that it was even a thing. I did not come here looking for an argument, or already having some issue with the philosophy/interpretation. My first impression of Hyper Grace was literally the first thing said on this thread.)

If what you say above is true, then how did you come to find the quotes below, which are straight from sites that completely misrepresent the Grace position? I recognized the quotes below as being from Dr. Michael Brown's 'Hyper-Grace Horror Stories' (no demigoguing there, eh?!).

Here's the link that you chose to omit from what 'you' wrote (copy/pasted) below: Hyper-Grace Horror Stories � Fire School of Ministry – Charlotte

" have seen firsthand the changes that come with people who embrace this message.

“I joined a small group 3 years ago that went from having regular prayer meetings and living holy connected lives together to stating ‘prayer is a work and denies grace’ and ‘sin allows grace to do its great work.’ All of our prayer meetings and Bible studies were traded in for game-nights and nights out at the bar to ‘witness’ where many from the group got plastered ... all in the name of ‘grace.’“My heart has been so broken for my dear friends who I walked so closely with. As a group, they have embraced sin as not only acceptable, but justified and desirable. I have been completely ostracized and mocked for my stand in holiness. They don’t even call me by my name anymore—they call me ‘Pharisee.’ Unfortunately, I have had to step completely away from these loved ones and am spending my life in prayer for them.” I suggest that whatever took a hold of this group of believers, was not the grace of God.


and here are a couple of more:

Another wrote this:“I had a loved one who was an intense follower of hyper grace start to lie and cheat in his business. … He was a different person before he started following hyper grace. … He wasn’t greedy, in fact he was selfless, humble and very much in integrity. Also I can’t mention to him the fact that he lied and withheld info in order to steer people to invest ... Why? Because he says there is no condemnation in Christ. So no one is allowed to mention that aspect of his behavior to him … or else.”

A worship leader wrote to me, describing what is happening among prominent worship leaders he knows, where “the drinking partying thing is rampant. Totally excused because they were under grace not legalism.”

Of course, my hyper-grace friends will protest: “This is not the fruit of our message. Our message produces love for Jesus and holy living. These people obviously misunderstood what we were teaching.”

Dr. Brown is a Pentecostal Holiness preacher who holds to Arminian theology. While I believe him to be a believer in Christ, and I do understand his positions, I disagree that what he believes can be supported wholly by Scripture. I've also noted that every time Dr. Brown has a new book coming out, he levies attacks on 'Hyper-Grace' to bolster sales.

Basically what I got from this, is a lot of people are using hyper-grace as an excuse to just sin, perhaps I am seriously confused, but this seemed to be the message you were trying to convey in your very first post. So now I am utterly confused, perhaps I am just stupid or ignorant and can't comprehend what this thread is about?

May I suggest that you do your own research and not take the word of any one person (including Dr. Brown). You can find several resources HERE to get you started.

Also, regarding Dr. Brown directly, here is a FB post where I documented a discussion with him in a post and in subsequent comments which you may find helpful. It is worthy to note here that many of these comments have been 'scrubbed' from Dr. Brown's sites, so the links backing them up may not work:

A Candid Comment to Dr. Michael Brown​

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

Edited to add: I just checked the link from that FB post and what do you know . . . the ONLY comment on Dr. Brown's post is from our own PeterJens, hahaha! It shows pages of comments, but his is the only one that comes up. Too funny, in a very revealing kind of way!

 

[ladylynn]

Well, I'm happy for me. Not just because perhaps a gay person, or two may come to know Jesus because of something I say to them, but mainly because a prejudicial sickness within me that I didn't believe could exist has been exposed, and I can at least admit it now. The future will reveal how well I manage to stay above it.

Very much relate Willie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What would we do without the knowledge of His grace for us as we see and are given the revelation to observe ourselves and how ROTTEN STINKING LOUSY MEAN UNMERCIFUL UNKIND UNGRACEFUL we can be when pushed to the limit of our individual human personalities??!! And it sure doesn't seem like many of us are pushed very far before we are at what we think is our limit.

I've been so disappointed at my lack of Godly patience when pushed to my personal limits at work. We have a few more difficult elderly people in our residential unit., but ONE extremely difficult elderly lady who takes over the whole unit when and because she wants all the attention. Not some or even a bigger share of., but ALLLLL of ours and everyone's attention. I've never seen anything like this lady and her behavior., (and I've seen a lot over the years)

We take care of about 30 elderly people who suffer from different forms of dementia., all function well and are aware enough to know they are not home and miss their families and their lives. But they are doing well and have found some sense of security and some happiness in their lives. At those good times when they are not thinking of missing family and the fear and confusion of the loss of their memory ., they like to get together and play a cards at the table after dinner or doing a puzzle and chatting and laughing and enjoying themselves and each other and the socializing with each other gives them a break from being sad and confused.

So our job of taking care of them is wonderful and serving these sweeties is just so fulfilling. Even when they have accidents or we have some hands on work to do as well as having to repeat ourselves many times and even then considering their feelings and to always be kind and respectful during the times when they need reassurance it's still no too much to ask., we really don't mind ., peace reigns most of the time....EXCEPT.....this one difficult lady "Marge" comes and wants to be the center of each group and begins talking then talking loudly over people, grabbing cards or puzzles, getting mad no one is paying all their attention to her.

Causes fights and arguments with staff and residents, swearing and going on rants when someone says 'no' to her., she can't have what is not hers. (she does this for attention when people are busy talking to each other and not her) If people are happy and laughing and having tea together she comes and gets in the middle of their time.

I come to work determined not to be annoyed or disgusted by her because this month she has been over the top on our nerves. And although I've kept the outside body language and facial expressions under control, my inner thoughts are not very kind. Words like "old battle ax" or "mean hag" come to mind and immediately I'm aware of my real heart attitude toward this lady.

Her face gets all contorted and mean when she yells and tries to shove her way into people's groups. The other residents are upset and some are angered and tell her to get lost. Which only makes her even more determined to stay. Sweet old ladies lift their canes to her., kind elderly men come to ours and the other ladies defense when Marge is pushing and swinging and yelling. The whole unit is turned into a battle field of emotions and then confusion.

It's times like that I'm thinking of GRACE. How this woman has nothing in her outward behavior or physical appearance during those times of rage that cause any of us to like (let alone love) her for. During those times we each have to strive to remember she is not really this way and can't help herself. Then I know God is calling me to see this lady as I am seen. I have all those horrible things in my flesh too (except for the grace of God).

The guilt would kill me if I had not learned about the Grace of God in Christ. And the fact that God loves me even if I were to get that way outwardly., His love would cover me because of Christ because He covers me now and I do have flesh like that but just am able to control it and look presentable. I have Jesus and because of Him I have all things because His love goes beyond the flesh and it's weakness.

There is much we don't know about the patience and love of God IN Christ. I don't think we reeeealllly know how horrible our flesh can be. How the mind and heart of humans is intricately intertwined. For sure we are fearfully and wonderfully made.,Psalm 139:14 [SUP]14 [/SUP]
I will give thanks and praise to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.



We were meant for something totally not based on sin. sin destroyed so much that God made right in us. I often think if it were not for Jesus coming., I'd be without hope like Marge and how can I be angry at her?? And yet., even knowing this., when I'm at work I still have to make myself remember this truth. How is THAT for rotten and awful?? And yet., in all this... He will never leave me or forsake me. And will teach me how to be that way for others. There is NO WAY I can do this without supernatural help. NO WAY could I learn this apart from learning about what HIS GRACE is and did for me.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is a really good point: "From the responses all over this forum, it is plain to see that people do not understand grace; therefore they pick apart anything they view as a threat to their understanding as though it were an attack on the gospel itself."

To a person, I can confidently say that each one who has come out swinging hard against so-called 'Hyper-Grace' cannot accurately articulate what the Grace position actually is. This includes the theologian Dr. Michael Brown, the one who coined the term, 'Hyper-Grace', with whom I've conversed online 3 or 4 times. When the misrepresentations that he was promulgating online were pointed out to him, using quotes from his book and then presented with what 'Hyper Gracers' actually teach, he suddenly became very busy and could not/would not discuss the issues further.

CONSISTENTLY we see statements given as facts about Grace that we do not believe nor do we teach. Furthermore, those who rail against us 'quote' teachers, but only what they've heard others who are against those teachers say those teachers have said, but won't go to the source to see what those teachers have actually said, claiming they 'don't have time for that'. Well if you don't have time to check your sources, bow out. You have NO business spreading inaccuracies.

I've done the dance against true heresy - the modern Judaizers of the Hebrew Roots Movement. I have most of an entire site addressing the false beliefs of the HRM, and when refuting a false belief, not only do I make sure that I have a thorough understanding of what they actually believe from many sources within the movement, but I also make sure to quote, providing links and context to the reader to those sources so that they may consider the evidence and decide for themselves. That is not happening here.

Grace777x70 addresses one tactic used and put it this way so well in another thread, regarding the straw-man approach:

It's like some saying "The sky is blue...isn't it lovely?"...instead someone comes and says "What?..you are a false teacher ..the sky is not green...everyone knows it's blue...."​

That happens a LOT in this debate, indicating that those who are heresy hunting the Grace of God don't really understand the issue. I read this quote earlier today from an article posted on FB:

"As any debate club veteran knows, if you can't make your opponent's argument for them, you don't truly grasp the issue." (source)​

I have tons more respect for someone who understands the issues and simply disagrees, but much less respect for those who demagogue without understanding simply to reinforce their position. When someone demagogues, they show that their penchant is more for their position than for what is TRUE.


-JGIG

That is right on accurate JGIG. At the very least people show some integrity and say what we are really saying and not leave out half truths to make what is being said to be "appear" to be wrong and evil.

One such thing that comes to mind is this " You don't confess sins". We say that "WE DO in fact confess sins" and talk about everything with our Father and Lord but we don't confess "in order to be forgiven" - we believe that Jesus' blood redeemed us and through His blood we have forgiveness.

It is ok to agree to disagree too - that is fine but to be called names because we don't believe some things like they do - is not even remotely a refection of the life of Christ in us.

Well done as it does show what is happening.

 

[Grace777x70]

0

If what you say above is true, then how did you come to find the quotes below, which are straight from sites that completely misrepresent the Grace position? I recognized the quotes below as being from Dr. Michael Brown's 'Hyper-Grace Horror Stories' (no demigoguing there, eh?!).

Here's the link that you chose to omit from what 'you' wrote (copy/pasted) below: Hyper-Grace Horror Stories � Fire School of Ministry – Charlotte




Dr. Brown is a Pentecostal Holiness preacher who holds to Arminian theology. While I believe him to be a believer in Christ, and I do understand his positions, I disagree that what he believes can be supported wholly by Scripture. I've also noted that every time Dr. Brown has a new book coming out, he levies attacks on 'Hyper-Grace' to bolster sales.




May I suggest that you do your own research and not take the word of any one person (including Dr. Brown). You can find several resources HERE to get you started.

Also, regarding Dr. Brown directly, here is a FB post where I documented a discussion with him in a post and in subsequent comments which you may find helpful. It is worthy to note here that many of these comments have been 'scrubbed' from Dr. Brown's sites, so the links backing them up may not work:

A Candid Comment to Dr. Michael Brown​

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

Edited to add: I just checked the link from that FB post and what do you know . . . the ONLY comment on Dr. Brown's post is from our own PeterJens, hahaha! It shows pages of comments, but his is the only one that comes up. Too funny, in a very revealing kind of way!

I read that and it is so telling that the only comments left on there is from Peterjens which we all know here doesn't even come close to accurately describing what grace believers believe about the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious grace and love for us.

I find it "very telling" that your comments were "wiped clean". Anyone can bash someone else when they are not allowed to refute the accusations.

I find that the ones that are saying we need "godliness" and to walk in purity and righteousness are in fact the very ones that exhibit malice and slander and name-calling and they think this is perfectly ok. It is so ironic to see this in operation....talk about a license to sin!

Great post JGIG - it reveals a lot to us. Thank you!

 

[DP]

The spirit of the man in 1 Cor. 5 was saved because his spirit is in righteousness. This was for this one person because they were boasting in what he was doing for some unknown reason - maybe they were saying "See, we are under grace which means we can sin all we want now?"

The Scripture doesn't say he was saved already, you are adding to the Scripture. Paul does not show the idea of their glorying had anything to do with applying grace to that fornicator, that's something else you are adding because of the doctrines of men you're holding to.

All the other ones in Corinth which are the ones going to the temple prostitutes for sex and the others causing divisions and strife, the ones getting drunk at communion and not saving any food for the others.

To all these - Paul told them who they were in Christ and there was no discipline like the guy who had his father's wife and the Corinthians were boasting in.

To all of them, Paul rebuked, showing how they were in danger of God's judgment. Same with the fornicator of 1 Cor.5...

1 Cor 5:11-13
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
KJV

We don't go in and out of righteousness because of sin. Where does the Lord Jesus who is in us go when someone sins? Sin is confined to the flesh. What about the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would be with us forever. ( John 14:16-17 )

That's more of that trying to force one's own set of standards (or actually Hyper-Grace Movement doctrines of men) in place of God's judgment for doing wickedness. What Paul showed in 1 Cor.5 was how Church leaders were to handle wickedness within the Church.

What about Paul saying that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit? ( what is He sealing us from? )

Does Christ leave us when we sin? Of course not - it's foolishness and it is calling Jesus a liar when we say that the Holy Spirit leaves us when we sin. We do not lose righteousness because we are on spirit with the Lord and joined to Him.

Does the Holy Spirit leave us when we turn to do wickedness? You bet He does IF... we fail to repent to The LORD about the matter and refuse to correct our wicked behavior. What did you not understand about Paul saying what concord does Christ have with Belial? (2 Cor.6)

All your other examples of the ten virgins and the unprofitable servant have been answered before but if I have time later I will post them. Basically these are not true believers in Christ as one can see by the true "context" of those scriptures.

I fail to see anywhere... where you have properly answered those. Just saying the five foolish virgins were not true believers is an addition to the Matt.25 Scripture, for every indication there is that they were all ten representative of believers on Christ, awaiting the coming of the Bridegroom, which coming was given to represent His 2nd coming. Who else is expecting the 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus and planning to gather to Him, a non-believer? That's just silly.

To say that the Holy Spirit leaves our spirit - our new man in Christ - which has been created in righteousness and holiness ( Eph. 4:24 ) is to call the Lord Jesus Christ a liar. I'm a "believer" in Him and His perfect sacrifice for us.

To say that there is concord between Christ and Belial is what makes Him out to be a liar, and that's basically the idea you're pushing from men's doctrines. Why don't you go back to the OT and do a bit of study, where you will discover how some of His chosen (like king Saul) lost The Holy Spirit because of multiple times he directly disobeyed our Heavenly Father.

To even think... that a believer who turns to wickedness can still think they are 'saved' while continuing to do wickedness is the height of ignorance and rebellion against the Grace of Jesus Christ!

Gal 5:18-21
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

Paul was very stern about the walk in Christ we are to have, as he said those who do those things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

So how... could you even think... to go against what Paul said there?

Our Lord Jesus warned us about the leaven doctrines of men. And that is what you are following, and it has blinded you away from the Truth in God's Word as shown even by Apostle Paul!

Will you also say the above Galatians 5 Scripture quote is 'my' teaching and not directly from Apostle Paul, just so you can keep your tradition of men??

Don't you see your error away from Scripture on this matter?