Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!
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Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!
Your heart does not demonstrate the love of God. Post all the scripture you want but if you do not understand them you cannot arrive at the correct answer.
Being saved by grace is a conversion not a rehabilitation. Saved by grace is transformed into a new creature not a new coat of skin on the old one.
There is no shortage of preachers that have compromised the gospel of Christ for the sake of entertaining crowds and filling offering plates. The turn of the century preachers that held tent meeting across this country preached against sin and folks ran down the aisles to get saved weeping and too ashamed to even look upward toward God. These folks felt the power of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and righteousness and eternal judgment. The conversion and the change in their life was so great that no one could deny they were not the same person they were before they got saved.
Men do not get saved because they decided one day that it was the thing they wanted to do but they get saved because they smell the smoke and feel the heat from the fames of hell licking at their heels.
It's all about the heart. Many have it in the head but never get it in the heart.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Here agaaaaaaain is my post:
ALL those posting against me have done exactly as I said..... attacked one scripture & ignored all the rest. They can't take them all on & they know it. So they twist this one scripture in 2Peter like a pretzel.
Roger says I "muck up" the scriptures. Undergrace says I'm adding to the scriptures. AuntieAnt says I'm delusional, fearful, that I called Jesus a liar, & that I'm trying to "shipwreck" their doctrine of salvation when their doctrine says it can't be done.
All of this because I posted those scriptures.
Guess what I'm gonna do about that? Why, post some more scripture that they hate & ignore, of course.
ALL those posting against me have done exactly as I said..... attacked one scripture & ignored all the rest. They can't take them all on & they know it. So they twist this one scripture in 2Peter like a pretzel.
Roger says I "muck up" the scriptures. Undergrace says I'm adding to the scriptures. AuntieAnt says I'm delusional, fearful, that I called Jesus a liar, & that I'm trying to "shipwreck" their doctrine of salvation when their doctrine says it can't be done.
All of this because I posted those scriptures.
Guess what I'm gonna do about that? Why, post some more scripture that they hate & ignore, of course.
Being saved by grace is a conversion not a rehabilitation. Saved by grace is transformed into a new creature not a new coat of skin on the old one.
There is no shortage of preachers that have compromised the gospel of Christ for the sake of entertaining crowds and filling offering plates. The turn of the century preachers that held tent meeting across this country preached against sin and folks ran down the aisles to get saved weeping and too ashamed to even look upward toward God. These folks felt the power of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin and righteousness and eternal judgment. The conversion and the change in their life was so great that no one could deny they were not the same person they were before they got saved.
Men do not get saved because they decided one day that it was the thing they wanted to do but they get saved because they smell the smoke and feel the heat from the fames of hell licking at their heels.
It's all about the heart. Many have it in the head but never get it in the heart.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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The concept that eternal security violates free will is erroneous.
Free will isn't about choosing the consequences of our actions.
If eternal salvation is a consequence of believing/trusting in the work of the cross, why would we have to be able to eliminate that consequence of that in order to have free will?
The decision is binding with binding consequences like many things in life.
The free will argument of loosing salvation is false from the start.
You received SIN as a Gift via Adam, you did not have a choice in the matter, that was the consequence of his free will choice. You receive salvation As a Gift via Jesus, you made a free will choice, the consequence is you are SAVED.
Adam's Gift is not Stronger than Jesus's Gift
Once Saved always Saved is the Gospel!!!
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I see the fruits of the hypergracers are coming out of the woodwork. Notice that their statements don't match the posts they're posting against? How many times, dear reader, have you read them & said to yourself, "What"? "what's he/she talking about?
Please also note that their posts strive to bring enough accusations forth to promote arguments & pull the poster off of his posting scripture.
Tell me, dear reader, how can posting ANY scripture about the possibility of backsliding & bringing God's wrath make the one posting it look self-righteous?
Do you also notice they totally downplay the use of commentaries? "Just the words of men", they say.
Then they show off pictures of people making statements & posting videos for their cause.
Be rest assured, NOTHING, no matter right out of the Bible, commentary, authored book, or your own words will be right if stated even softly against hypergrace. Reading their own statements throughout this thread will tell you everything about their fruit.
WHYYYYYYYYY do they make such a big deal about what we believe? Will it send us to Hell?
The Hypergrace doctrine says PLAINLY that after one receives Christ, they're going to Heaven, & nobody can stop it, not even ourselves.
ACCORDING TO THEIR BELIEFS, WE'RE ALL GOING!!!
Yet they continue to fight like it's a winner-take-all & their salvation is on the line!!!
Have you, dear reader, heard them speak AS IF they're genuinely concerned with our salvation? Or, have you heard the majority condemn us?
From their legal standpoint, there's nothing to fight for IF THEY'RE RIGHT..... except the thought of being right, which is purely carnal.
But..... IF THEY'RE WRONG..... then EVERYTHING is on the line..... their salvation, & the salvation of everyone that AGREES with them. IF THEY'RE WRONG, they are enemies of the cross, perverting the beliefs of anyone leaning to their doctrine.
That's why a few of us counter their statements by quoting scripture. And if you have noticed, NONE of them like it.
Dear reader, the choice is yours..... neither group can force a decision on you..... you have the ability, the free will, to choose for yourself. Be careful. Read your Bible. Study for yourself.
John 8:31-32 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Please also note that their posts strive to bring enough accusations forth to promote arguments & pull the poster off of his posting scripture.
Tell me, dear reader, how can posting ANY scripture about the possibility of backsliding & bringing God's wrath make the one posting it look self-righteous?
Do you also notice they totally downplay the use of commentaries? "Just the words of men", they say.
Then they show off pictures of people making statements & posting videos for their cause.
Be rest assured, NOTHING, no matter right out of the Bible, commentary, authored book, or your own words will be right if stated even softly against hypergrace. Reading their own statements throughout this thread will tell you everything about their fruit.
WHYYYYYYYYY do they make such a big deal about what we believe? Will it send us to Hell?
The Hypergrace doctrine says PLAINLY that after one receives Christ, they're going to Heaven, & nobody can stop it, not even ourselves.
ACCORDING TO THEIR BELIEFS, WE'RE ALL GOING!!!
Yet they continue to fight like it's a winner-take-all & their salvation is on the line!!!
Have you, dear reader, heard them speak AS IF they're genuinely concerned with our salvation? Or, have you heard the majority condemn us?
From their legal standpoint, there's nothing to fight for IF THEY'RE RIGHT..... except the thought of being right, which is purely carnal.
But..... IF THEY'RE WRONG..... then EVERYTHING is on the line..... their salvation, & the salvation of everyone that AGREES with them. IF THEY'RE WRONG, they are enemies of the cross, perverting the beliefs of anyone leaning to their doctrine.
That's why a few of us counter their statements by quoting scripture. And if you have noticed, NONE of them like it.
Dear reader, the choice is yours..... neither group can force a decision on you..... you have the ability, the free will, to choose for yourself. Be careful. Read your Bible. Study for yourself.
John 8:31-32 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Worthy of serious consideration. Good job. Here's some scripture to go with your post.
Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This may be a little strong for some but needful for all. Isn't is wonderful to know that all our sins are under the blood of Christ. Full atonement has been made. Nothing more can be added for nothing else is required.
Too good to be true? Perhaps but true none the less. License to sin? As Paul said God forbid.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This may be a little strong for some but needful for all. Isn't is wonderful to know that all our sins are under the blood of Christ. Full atonement has been made. Nothing more can be added for nothing else is required.
Too good to be true? Perhaps but true none the less. License to sin? As Paul said God forbid.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Instead of slinging mud why not give me your position on Gods grace? Hyper-grace is not Gods grace. We both know that truth. Gods grace is not a license to sin. We both know that truth as well. Spraying accusations in all directions does nothing to present the truth of Gods word. We both know that no one is saved by works of righteousness.
We preach against sin not against grace. Grace will not condemn a man but sin will. Grace is greater than sin and cannot be overcome by sin.
How do you teach someone to be saved? If a soul comes to you and asks you to help them become saved what do you do?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We preach against sin not against grace. Grace will not condemn a man but sin will. Grace is greater than sin and cannot be overcome by sin.
How do you teach someone to be saved? If a soul comes to you and asks you to help them become saved what do you do?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You have free will to go eat garbage out of the dumpsters, do you do it? Maybe you would if you didn't have any other food. That's sin.
When you get saved, you get unlimited food, so you don't need to eat garbage. The problem is people who don't understand how good He is and that He provides everything we need.
In heaven people will have free will, but won't desire sin.
Before Christ, people who sin are enslaved the Bible calls them blinded.
We are set free now, now we have free will to not sin! And Christians who do are because they don't know the truth, which is what see from each epistle. Believers are now free, but the truth sets them free.
You were designed in His image. You were created to express Him. You fell from glory, but He restored you. Now you are free to be like Him.
Let me ask you a question. Knowing God like you do now, would you leave Him?
When you get saved, you get unlimited food, so you don't need to eat garbage. The problem is people who don't understand how good He is and that He provides everything we need.
In heaven people will have free will, but won't desire sin.
Before Christ, people who sin are enslaved the Bible calls them blinded.
We are set free now, now we have free will to not sin! And Christians who do are because they don't know the truth, which is what see from each epistle. Believers are now free, but the truth sets them free.
You were designed in His image. You were created to express Him. You fell from glory, but He restored you. Now you are free to be like Him.
Let me ask you a question. Knowing God like you do now, would you leave Him?
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Maybe this will help.
Your good works do not come from you trying to stay saved.
Good works come because you are saved. He prepared the good works for you.
Or were you started by the Spirit and now need to be perfected by your flesh?
Your good works do not come from you trying to stay saved.
Good works come because you are saved. He prepared the good works for you.
Or were you started by the Spirit and now need to be perfected by your flesh?
Thanks for the clarification.............let me say, quoting you:
Not everyone in the OSAS camp is a Calvinist. I believe in free will, yet I also believe that Christians are new creations in Christ and that God preserves His saints forever.
One can not believe in "free will," if one believes that once saved, man does not have the "free will" to decide to turn from Christ, and, again embrace the sin-filled life they lived before coming to Christ. To believe that once one comes to Christ, that Christ "removes" their "free will" from them, thus "preserving them forever," is to believe in a watered down version of the teachings of Calvin. Like Christ says: "OK, NOW I GOTCHA, YOU AIN'T GOT NO CHOICE NOW BUT TO BE MINE FOREVER." Hmm.........I don't think so.......
And, then there is the issue of "good works" which those that believe in OSAS discount as being necessary, for they do not like to consider that "being obedient" to the Commandments/Will of God has anything to do with His "preserving" of us.
Not everyone in the OSAS camp is a Calvinist. I believe in free will, yet I also believe that Christians are new creations in Christ and that God preserves His saints forever.
One can not believe in "free will," if one believes that once saved, man does not have the "free will" to decide to turn from Christ, and, again embrace the sin-filled life they lived before coming to Christ. To believe that once one comes to Christ, that Christ "removes" their "free will" from them, thus "preserving them forever," is to believe in a watered down version of the teachings of Calvin. Like Christ says: "OK, NOW I GOTCHA, YOU AIN'T GOT NO CHOICE NOW BUT TO BE MINE FOREVER." Hmm.........I don't think so.......
And, then there is the issue of "good works" which those that believe in OSAS discount as being necessary, for they do not like to consider that "being obedient" to the Commandments/Will of God has anything to do with His "preserving" of us.
Given the entire list of Scripture I posted, I have to sincerely disagree with you. OSAS is a man made ideology. The Entirety of Gospel DOES NOT support this ideology. People are being led down a path of false ideology that may well end up being their downfall. And the people leading them down that path will stand in judgement for doing so.
The truly sad thing here is that your comments above COMPLETELY JUSTIFY my assertion that OSAS is a false theology/ideology, and you DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND that you have made MY ARGUMENT for me. That is truly sad.
The embolden part CLEARLY shows that you realize that WE HAVE A CHOICE! To stay in HIs loving arms and Grace, OR to TURN FROM Him and LEAVE Him. That IS FREE WILL. That IS NOT OSAS. OSAS teaches that once saved, a person CAN NOT CHOOSE TO LEAVE HIM.
Thank you though for proving that the proponents of OSAS do not even understand their own ideology.
The embolden part CLEARLY shows that you realize that WE HAVE A CHOICE! To stay in HIs loving arms and Grace, OR to TURN FROM Him and LEAVE Him. That IS FREE WILL. That IS NOT OSAS. OSAS teaches that once saved, a person CAN NOT CHOOSE TO LEAVE HIM.
Thank you though for proving that the proponents of OSAS do not even understand their own ideology.
Sorry, everything you have said above is simply wrong at best, or intentionally false teachings of "free will." Personally, I simply believe you do not actually understand free will or what it is. However, it is such a simple gift from God, that surely, if you seek guidance from the Holy Spirit, He will impart the understanding of free will to you.
Free will was never designed by God to be a "punishment," or only serve as a "consequence" for our actions. God wanted (from the beginning) to have His creation (mankind) to love Him. He wanted them to CHOOSE to love Him freely OF THEIR OWN WILL. Not love Him because He created them to be obedient loving children with no choice. He did not desire a creation of "robots," He desired loving children who desired to love Him as He loved them, of their own FREE WILL.
Adam and Eve have nothing to do with this. That is a whole other thread, and simply a straw man argument here.
Free will was never designed by God to be a "punishment," or only serve as a "consequence" for our actions. God wanted (from the beginning) to have His creation (mankind) to love Him. He wanted them to CHOOSE to love Him freely OF THEIR OWN WILL. Not love Him because He created them to be obedient loving children with no choice. He did not desire a creation of "robots," He desired loving children who desired to love Him as He loved them, of their own FREE WILL.
Adam and Eve have nothing to do with this. That is a whole other thread, and simply a straw man argument here.
Wait........WHUT? Sinner's prayer? What in the world is that, and where in Scripture do we find this prayer? What are the exact words to be prayed? If we diverge from it in any way is our salvation lost? Goodness.......what will man come up with next.......?
Saving faith is certainly firmy rooted in Christ, and He will never leave us or forsake us........but there is NOWHERE in all of Scripture that specifically states that WE CAN NOT LEAVE OR FORSAKE HIM. People only come to this conclusion through false interpretation of Scripture so it will fit their ideology.
Rather than change what Scripture says to fit your ideology, why not change what your ideology says to fit Scripture?
Hmm................
Saving faith is certainly firmy rooted in Christ, and He will never leave us or forsake us........but there is NOWHERE in all of Scripture that specifically states that WE CAN NOT LEAVE OR FORSAKE HIM. People only come to this conclusion through false interpretation of Scripture so it will fit their ideology.
Rather than change what Scripture says to fit your ideology, why not change what your ideology says to fit Scripture?
Hmm................
Not a one of you has managed to adequately explain how your ideology does not make void free will. One or two have tried, and failed miserably, the rest have simply ignored the issue because they know they can not.
FREE WILL AND OSAS are directly opposed to one another in every way.
So, if you believe in and teach OSAS, you better be honest enough, and have the courage to admit that you do not believe in FREE WILL. Otherwise, you are being deceptive in your teachings, and God is not the Author of deception.
FREE WILL AND OSAS are directly opposed to one another in every way.
So, if you believe in and teach OSAS, you better be honest enough, and have the courage to admit that you do not believe in FREE WILL. Otherwise, you are being deceptive in your teachings, and God is not the Author of deception.
With all due respect. Every one of those scriptures you put up can be shown NOT to lose salvation for true believers in Christ.
We can view scriptures with a grace-based view which is totally based on Christ's completed work for us. - or we can view scriptures with a mindset that says we can lose salvation by "what we do" which is all man-based.
If you like, you can start a thread on this and I would be happy to participate in. Take one scripture at a time and we can look at it through both views.
We can view scriptures with a grace-based view which is totally based on Christ's completed work for us. - or we can view scriptures with a mindset that says we can lose salvation by "what we do" which is all man-based.
If you like, you can start a thread on this and I would be happy to participate in. Take one scripture at a time and we can look at it through both views.
Honestly, I, and others, have done that so very many times here, it really is not worth the effort. Those cemented in their denominational ideology will never honestly consider that thy may have been misled. And as I am a passionate believer in FREE WILL, I will never accept the false ideology of OSAS. So, truly, why bother.
I have only commented here because a couple of the posts were so far over the top and so very unBiblical that I was moved to do so.
As all can see, the OSAS'ers will not honestly discuss the issue, rather they duck and dodge or completely ignore any proposal that challenges the truth of their ideology. They then resort to their usual attacks...........and their all time favorite justification of........"well, they really weren't saved to begin with....." Talk about a cry baby justification.
Nah...........I have again reached my threshold for, and intake of this false ideology. I suspect the number of "friends" I did have here prior to this thread will decrease...........but, that is ok.....I will not sit by and watch people who profess to be Christians attack the God given gift of free will, and replace it with a watered down version of the teachings of Calvin.
Your own statement reveals this to be true.............