So what about the fourth commandment?
- Thread starter disciplemike
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I agree that's is tragic when folks go back to the dead branches, however obeying the commands of the King of the universe are never doing that unless we put the Torah higher then our beloved Savior. the fact is we all are being led to the same gate that leads to life, the Father in his infinite wisdom knows just how to lead each according to their abilities and willingness, let him be praised and not man.
This is how you're working too hard, and where so many people (including many Messianics/Hebrew Roots/law keeper folks) get into trouble. People take a simple instruction in the Word and add assumptions, or caveats, or additions to it to suit their own agenda (perhaps yours is making the Sabbath so hard to keep that people can't, which is why God doesn't want us to keep it.
)
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
**Exodus *20:8-11 *NASB
God says who the people He's talking about are. But you're adding in other folks that were never part of the instruction to make the instruction much harder than it needs to be, which is what many of the Pharisees loved to do.
“They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”
**Matthew *23:4 *NIV
So how far down the legalistic mindset to you expect other people to go? The employee at the power plant? His wife who made him lunch? The clerk at the grocery store who sold the wife the bread for the sandwich that morning? The delivery guy who brought the bread to the store? The attendant at the gas station where the driver filled up on the way to the store?
The Biblical instruction is for anyone living with you and under your care. That's as far as God went. Personally, I don't feel the need to go further than that. Maybe to feel the need to add to God's Word in this matter.
)"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
**Exodus *20:8-11 *NASB
God says who the people He's talking about are. But you're adding in other folks that were never part of the instruction to make the instruction much harder than it needs to be, which is what many of the Pharisees loved to do.
“They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”
**Matthew *23:4 *NIV
So how far down the legalistic mindset to you expect other people to go? The employee at the power plant? His wife who made him lunch? The clerk at the grocery store who sold the wife the bread for the sandwich that morning? The delivery guy who brought the bread to the store? The attendant at the gas station where the driver filled up on the way to the store?
The Biblical instruction is for anyone living with you and under your care. That's as far as God went. Personally, I don't feel the need to go further than that. Maybe to feel the need to add to God's Word in this matter.
Paul had some very harsh words to say about Judaizers that came in after he preached Christ to them. They were trying to get the gentiles to go back to the law of living instead of relying on the indwelling Christ in them to lead them.
This preaching of going to live by the Law after coming to Christ causes us to desert the Lord and to be severed from the grace of Christ.
This "law-keeping" religion is anti-Christ but it has the "appearance" of godliness but denies the power - which is Christ Himself and His life in us.
1) We live now by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus
2) the law of love
3) the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the righteous shall live by faith in Christ alone )
4) the law of liberty in Christ Jesus
5) the law of Christ - Himself.
We don't need to "obey" Lev 18:23 to not have sex with animals. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop us from that.
This preaching of going to live by the Law after coming to Christ causes us to desert the Lord and to be severed from the grace of Christ.
This "law-keeping" religion is anti-Christ but it has the "appearance" of godliness but denies the power - which is Christ Himself and His life in us.
1) We live now by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus
2) the law of love
3) the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the righteous shall live by faith in Christ alone )
4) the law of liberty in Christ Jesus
5) the law of Christ - Himself.
We don't need to "obey" Lev 18:23 to not have sex with animals. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop us from that.
See, I don't think it's so clear as to reach the conclusion you are. You're adding other people to the instruction and adding "modern conveniences" to the interpretation, all the while missing the entire point of the instruction. This is exactly what the Pharisees did, and what Jesus called them out on.
“Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.”
**Luke *11:46 *NIV
Scripture can't be "more clear" if we have to add to it or add our reasoning to it to come up with a meaning. God gave a simple instruction. Why do you feel the need to make it more difficult?
“Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.”
**Luke *11:46 *NIV
Scripture can't be "more clear" if we have to add to it or add our reasoning to it to come up with a meaning. God gave a simple instruction. Why do you feel the need to make it more difficult?
Very important. I would suggest a big difference between replacing and fulfilling.
Yes shadows as part of God’s poetic language in so much that without parables, Christ the anointing Holy Spirit, spoke not, is what God uses to convey the unseen (faith principle)the eternal rest we will receive. He hides the spiritual understand from those who are perishing because the god of this world has blinded them so they can understand the gospel .
Shadows were used up until the promised outward demonstration on the cross. The ceremonial laws which spoke of a suffering savoir beforehand where shadows pointing that demonstration of things to come.
That demonstration came even though the outward Jew is still waiting for Christ to come in the flesh. This would show they have the spirit of the antichrist just as a unbelieving Gentile.God puts no difference between them and the gentile.
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The first century reformation in respect to the demonstration when Christ said; it is finished, the veil was rent signaling the beginning or the restoration back to the time period of the judges when there was no outward form representing God, the King of kings.
The outward use of the flesh of Jew as a shadow used as a parable or pattern was no longer needed..... the demonstration fulfilled those shadows which speak of our eternal rest in the future.
The total application of that rest of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world is today is a shadow seeing we still live in a body of death. It will be realized fully in the new heavens and earth, when we receive or new incorruptible body.
Today we experience that rest in part .Then we will experience it in full in our incorruptible bodies.
You could say just as we known of the rest today in part, then in full.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 1Co 13:12
Yes shadows as part of God’s poetic language in so much that without parables, Christ the anointing Holy Spirit, spoke not, is what God uses to convey the unseen (faith principle)the eternal rest we will receive. He hides the spiritual understand from those who are perishing because the god of this world has blinded them so they can understand the gospel .
Shadows were used up until the promised outward demonstration on the cross. The ceremonial laws which spoke of a suffering savoir beforehand where shadows pointing that demonstration of things to come.
That demonstration came even though the outward Jew is still waiting for Christ to come in the flesh. This would show they have the spirit of the antichrist just as a unbelieving Gentile.God puts no difference between them and the gentile.
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The first century reformation in respect to the demonstration when Christ said; it is finished, the veil was rent signaling the beginning or the restoration back to the time period of the judges when there was no outward form representing God, the King of kings.
The outward use of the flesh of Jew as a shadow used as a parable or pattern was no longer needed..... the demonstration fulfilled those shadows which speak of our eternal rest in the future.
The total application of that rest of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world is today is a shadow seeing we still live in a body of death. It will be realized fully in the new heavens and earth, when we receive or new incorruptible body.
Today we experience that rest in part .Then we will experience it in full in our incorruptible bodies.
You could say just as we known of the rest today in part, then in full.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. 1Co 13:12
OK but this doesn't answer my question.
my Lamb is already sacrificed: Christ. the scripture literally says exactly this with direct reference to Passover. so am i to ignore the clear scripture and follow the letter of Moses' Law, or is the requirement for a believer different than what was given to Israel before the Messiah came?
i.e. shadow or substance? in literal application, not platitudes or word studies, but actual rubber on the road.
((sent from my Roosevelt-phone))
my Lamb is already sacrificed: Christ. the scripture literally says exactly this with direct reference to Passover. so am i to ignore the clear scripture and follow the letter of Moses' Law, or is the requirement for a believer different than what was given to Israel before the Messiah came?
i.e. shadow or substance? in literal application, not platitudes or word studies, but actual rubber on the road.
((sent from my Roosevelt-phone))
The church,the bride of Christ is founded on the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God. It is not founded on Peter who was used as an example of what an antichrist looks like. Desiring the things of natural man under to influence of Satan who has no form of his own needed to entice people to walk by sight.
He is the mimicker that works to turn things upside down in the affairs of men. We must work to distinguish between the thing of God and those of men. Its where the father of lies gets his foot in the door of high places (the church) .
He is the mimicker that works to turn things upside down in the affairs of men. We must work to distinguish between the thing of God and those of men. Its where the father of lies gets his foot in the door of high places (the church) .
Still waiting...
What do the words “stood only” mean in the portion of scripture below? Only what? For how long?
What is the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews teaching us?
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which “stood only” in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinance”, imposed on them until of the "time"of reformation. Heb 9:8
What do the words “stood only” mean in the portion of scripture below? Only what? For how long?
What is the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews teaching us?
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which “stood only” in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinance”, imposed on them until of the "time"of reformation. Heb 9:8
This passage refers to the Day of Atonement in he first tabernacle. The tabernacle was a copy of the one in heaven. "the first tabernacle was yet standing".
The service in the tabernacle didn't perfect anything, but this is still, even now, an appointed time by God. When God says forever, it should register with a reader.
"Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement.
It shall be for you a time of holy convocation,
and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to YHVH.
And you shall not do any work on that very day,
for it is a Day of Atonement,
to make atonement for you before YHVH your God.
For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves.
On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."
Leviticus 23:27-32 (ESV2011, MBM)
This is the appointed time Sha-ul refers to as "the fast"...
Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because *the Fast was now already past, Paul admonished [them], Acts 27:9 (KJV, MBM)
*G3521 nesteia (nace-tei'-ah) n.
1. abstinence (from lack of food, or voluntary and religious)
2. (specially) the fast of the Day of Atonement
The service in the tabernacle didn't perfect anything, but this is still, even now, an appointed time by God. When God says forever, it should register with a reader.
"Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement.
It shall be for you a time of holy convocation,
and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to YHVH.
And you shall not do any work on that very day,
for it is a Day of Atonement,
to make atonement for you before YHVH your God.
For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves.
On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."
Leviticus 23:27-32 (ESV2011, MBM)
This is the appointed time Sha-ul refers to as "the fast"...
Now when much time was spent, and when sailing was now dangerous, because *the Fast was now already past, Paul admonished [them], Acts 27:9 (KJV, MBM)
*G3521 nesteia (nace-tei'-ah) n.
1. abstinence (from lack of food, or voluntary and religious)
2. (specially) the fast of the Day of Atonement
This is how you're working too hard, and where so many people (including many Messianics/Hebrew Roots/law keeper folks) get into trouble. People take a simple instruction in the Word and add assumptions, or caveats, or additions to it to suit their own agenda (perhaps yours is making the Sabbath so hard to keep that people can't, which is why God doesn't want us to keep it.)
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
**Exodus *20:8-11 *NASB
God says who the people He's talking about are. But you're adding in other folks that were never part of the instruction to make the instruction much harder than it needs to be, which is what many of the Pharisees loved to do.
“They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”
**Matthew *23:4 *NIV
So how far down the legalistic mindset to you expect other people to go? The employee at the power plant? His wife who made him lunch? The clerk at the grocery store who sold the wife the bread for the sandwich that morning? The delivery guy who brought the bread to the store? The attendant at the gas station where the driver filled up on the way to the store?
The Biblical instruction is for anyone living with you and under your care. That's as far as God went. Personally, I don't feel the need to go further than that. Maybe to feel the need to add to God's Word in this matter.
)"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
**Exodus *20:8-11 *NASB
God says who the people He's talking about are. But you're adding in other folks that were never part of the instruction to make the instruction much harder than it needs to be, which is what many of the Pharisees loved to do.
“They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.”
**Matthew *23:4 *NIV
So how far down the legalistic mindset to you expect other people to go? The employee at the power plant? His wife who made him lunch? The clerk at the grocery store who sold the wife the bread for the sandwich that morning? The delivery guy who brought the bread to the store? The attendant at the gas station where the driver filled up on the way to the store?
The Biblical instruction is for anyone living with you and under your care. That's as far as God went. Personally, I don't feel the need to go further than that. Maybe to feel the need to add to God's Word in this matter.
it is OK then to pay the neighborhood teenager to mow your lawn on the Sabbath?
' heavy, cumbersome loads'
exactly! it's very cumbersome if you don't live in an observant community
observant Jews live close together... come shabbot they all stroll to the synagogue... no need to drive... better yet a kibbutz
why the reluctance among observant gentiles to do that?
Hi that passage points to all the shadows as ceremonial laws not just one. .
Still waiting...
What do the words “stood only” mean in the portion of scripture below? Only what? For how long?
What is the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews teaching us? What is the purpose of that whole chapter?
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which “stood only” in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinance”, imposed on them until of the "time"of reformation. Heb 9:8
Still waiting...
What do the words “stood only” mean in the portion of scripture below? Only what? For how long?
What is the whole chapter 9 of Hebrews teaching us? What is the purpose of that whole chapter?
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which “stood only” in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinance”, imposed on them until of the "time"of reformation. Heb 9:8
It was only on the Day of Atonement when the High Priest would go into the Holy of Holies.
I agree that Messiah is the Ultimate Atonement. What we don't agree on is the timing, and whether believers should still hold sacred this particular day on the calendar. Why would we not?
The reformation is not complete.
I agree that Messiah is the Ultimate Atonement. What we don't agree on is the timing, and whether believers should still hold sacred this particular day on the calendar. Why would we not?
The reformation is not complete.
of course not!!
right?
so it's not the Father that the law required to die -- and not the Father who died, but the Son, who was sent to redeem the Bride of the Son
and it is the adulteress, and the idol & sin who must be put to death.
& it shall be so: either by the condemnation of the law, and the victory of the justice of God
or through the cross, being immersed into the death of Christ Himself, so that she may rise and live, a new creature.
that is how the law is fulfilled with regard to the figure of marriage - and it is the marriage of the Son, not the Father, that we look toward. not that the Father died so that He could remarry the adulterous woman!
why not??
are you waiting for Him to be crucified again?
how many times shall He take up His cross for you?
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(Hebrews 10:14)
(Hebrews 10:14)
that is past tense
this is His finished work
the veil was torn
would you deny that Christ accomplished anything at all?