Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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this thread was never started to discuss hyper anything

to be sure, people have tried very hard to make it about what some are calling hyper grace

however, if the op is actually read, it can be seen that is not the topic

the title does NOT read hyper grace...it says 'hyper stuff' and the op explains what I had in mind

this is from the op:




we do not have a cure for sin

only God does

it is called GRACE
Yes, we do not have the cure for sin! The answer can't be: just stop doing it. I tried and couldn't.

This would be like going to a chiropractor and having him say: oh, I see what your problem is! You are walking all hunched over! Just straighten yourself up and walk right and you will be fine!

No one would listen to him. They would say, no, you don't understand. I am walking this way because of something going on inside me, in my spine. I can't walk straight until you fix me!
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
Yes, I think we are all on board now Lauren! I am eager to talk about Gods' marvelous grace! I had some very trying times before I came to see that I just needed to ask Him for the help I needed! I knew He saved me and I couldn't believe that He was now inside me, communing with me all the time! Like, I lived 42 years without Him in me and I don't know how, now that I know him!
But I still took a long time to see that He wanted me to trust Him the same way for my sanctification as I had for my saving. I just didn't get that so quickly.

Edit: that was a reply to post#538 :)
well alrighty roo! :)

I'm still 'getting it'

the harder I tried to be 'good' it seemed the worse I got

we desperately need God. we desperately need to understand He is all the provision we will ever need

and that He loves us as His own sons and daughters

grace is grace! it does not cause sin!

that's my point

thank you stunned. sincerely. thank you.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
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Well, I was asked to not talk about this person, but after sleeping on it, I realized it was only people who don't say the "right" things about this person who are going to get any flack.

I am very aware of the things peter does that are not good. I could run down the list of them, like making a hefty post that is actually good, but then throwing one nasty comment in, usually at the very end. Or like his penchant for labeling. And if I made a long list of what peter does that you don't like, I would be commended and approved of.

But I don't want to jump on the stomp peter bandwagon, no matter HOW badly he can act here. I want to love peter. And I can quite easily forgive his unkind words and aggressive statements in order to keep on loving him and talking with him. And I realize that's a problem for some of you and that even though I understand and agree with most of what you preach, the problem is that I keep talking in love to peter when others have become fed up with him and have determined that he must stop his behaviors before I should do that. But without love, he's not going to stop them.

How anyone can see a man asserting that only outward murder is murder in Gods' eyes to then see the truth that anger and resentment in the heart is, in fact, murder in Gods' eyes, is no growth in truth, is strange to me. I see great growth there. I see the fruit of talking with peter in love, forgiveness and patience because of this change toward truth. And since I see it, I won't jump on the bandwagon. I don't care if it makes me as hateful as peter to anyone elses mind.

So while I agree with most of what you preach, I don't agree with how you deal with peters inappropriate remarks. I don't care if that makes me the enemy too. I will continue to ignore his aggressive remarks and focus on whatever IS good in his posts because I have seen the fruit of doing as our Lord commands us. I realize you can't see it though. And I'm okay with people being angry at me. It won't make me stop talking to peter with love and forgiveness and patience until he can see what I see.
You should absolutely do as you feel led, Sbg. No one will fault you for that. Time spent has a way of working these things out, one way or another.

Likewise, though you disagree with how some of us 'deal' with PeterJens, please understand that we have also proceeded as we have felt led. And the so-called Hyper-Grace position, contrary to what those who oppose it will say, does not ignore or fail to call out sin. Nor are those who hold to the Gospel of Grace afraid to address lies told about what they believe, because those lies also stand in opposition to the Scriptures. Grace says sinning is dumb and destructive. Stop it! But always in a redemptive context, not condemning, but exhorting the believer about who they are in Christ. This is who you are; now live like it!

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
you know, JGIG goes to alot of trouble to post and add to the discussion

I repost what she wrote

it all goes south again

there are many threads on judgement and there is a prayer forum and there is the misc thread and the suggestion thread and the speak your mind thread

maybe this thread has run its course?

more than half the content is off topic or attacks

maybe it's just me and I ate lemons for breakfast, but I am tired of the constant derail...not just this thread...but all over..and the constant way the convo becomes about a person or the people posting
It's the nature of forums and semi-free speech, ha.

Part of that was my fault, when I noted that PeterJens' comment was the only one showing on Dr. Brown's page, and that all other comments had been scrubbed. That kind of brought PJ back into the discussion. An unintended consequence.

Ignoring PeterJens is probably the best course. I don't put anyone "on" ignore, but do read and then ignore what they've written. Well, most of the time :p.

As for the thread having run its course, time will tell.

Clarifying for readers here that grace is not sin, and does not promote or encourage sinning has great value, in my opinion, because that is a HUGE mis-perception out there!

Grace is grace; sin is sin. Worth the discussion!

-JGIG
 
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ladylynn

Guest
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”)

16Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

7
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1


I love these verses about grace and truth coming from Jesus. Major distinction about what Moses brought and what Jesus brought Lauren! Amen!. It's shocking to think most of us here who now talk about the grace of God knew nothing about the new covenant that we were in all along. Most of us were on a fence 1/2 in the law and 1/2 in grace. No wonder I kept falling off!!!!!!!
 

Sac49

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2016
582
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0
Read Romans 7:14-23 then end with verse 24,25 "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to Gods law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit our sinful nature is being brought under control and we are learning to rely upon God to avoid the temtation of sin for "He provides a way out that we may stand up under it" (1 Cor 1p:13)
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
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just so

we have tried very hard to explain that and no one more than you have...and with greater patience than I have certainly



but I am seeing something more in that verse from John 1

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14


I really like this verse from Peter that you included:

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


my last post, I mentioned John 1:14

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

that has to be God's grace I'm thinking

Jesus came full of the grace of God

we know the scripture says that Jesus came to show us the Father

so, IN Him, we have the living Word...the living grace...all we could need to demonstrate all that is the grace of God towards us who believe

how do you and others see that?

And add to the above this:

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (from Heb. 12)


-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”)

16Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

7
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1

[video=youtube;PP9V2kBfEAw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP9V2kBfEAw[/video]


You are the Word, You are the Light
We have seen Your glory
Shining in the darkest night
We have seen Your glory

Jesus full of grace and truth
Jesus we will worship You
Jesus one and only Son
We have seen Your glory
(We have seen Your glory)
We have seen Your glory
(We have seen Your glory)

You are the Lamb Who gives us life
We have seen Your glory
Born of God we testify
We have seen Your glory

Son of God and son of man
We have seen Your glory
All creation in Your hand
We have seen Your glory
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
I love these verses about grace and truth coming from Jesus. Major distinction about what Moses brought and what Jesus brought Lauren! Amen!. It's shocking to think most of us here who now talk about the grace of God knew nothing about the new covenant that we were in all along. Most of us were on a fence 1/2 in the law and 1/2 in grace. No wonder I kept falling off!!!!!!!
which is why I kept not seeing this (hate to use the word) 'hyper' thing

I have changed my mind ..repented to agree with the Bible...quite a few times from what I was taught in the church I spent 15 years in...from the age of 5 to the age of 20

they were 100% OSAS...to the point where it did it did not matter what you did...there was one very sad case...where a man went on the skids...don't know why; I was too young...left his wife and son and was a drunk living on the streets. I know he died eventually and I don't know anything else other than that 'he went home to be with the Lord'

so, I never had law introduced to grace until years later and began to believe there was more to grace than grace

but when we put it all together, is when it starts to make sense
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
And add to the above this:
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (from Heb. 12)


-JGIG

beautiful passage...we are not alone...many have gone before us and their witness beckons us on...just this am, reading again what Paul said, forgetting what is behind I press on
 
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ladylynn

Guest
And add to the above this:
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (from Heb. 12)


-JGIG

Interesting to note the different things that speak to us in a verse on different days. There was a new Christian who posted in another thread not understanding why he fell back into some old behavior and was condemning himself for his failure. My heart goes out to new believers who don't hear the news of grace.

What you posted here JGIG
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross,scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (from Heb. 12)

The sin that so easily entangles. It will always seek to entangle us in a web of confusion. We will be in a world with sin and the flesh and the devil. The answer to this obvious dilemma is fixing our eyes ON JESUS. That is the only way to combat sin.

Yet...how does this looking to Jesus work out practically as a remedy? How are we 'looking' to Jesus?The first part I've found is we see who we are in Him. That HE has been successful and He has gone on before. We are now IN Him having His righteousness ON us and we walk in freedom from the wrath of God that we once had over us. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) NO WRATH NO JUDGMENT
:D

We have also been given the gift of NO condemnation so we also are now able to walk in freedom of the condemnation and guilt of our sin!! (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
:D We are loved even though we missed the mark. Even though we were not perfect. But IN Christ we are seen and we have been redeemed.

Jesus gave us these gifts AND MORE. There is even more to our salvation than we first heard! So when we read the Bible and hear His Word preached, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are the sons of God and we learn how. Grace teaches us how. All of this is encased sort of speak in God's love (grace) that Jesus gave us at our new birth. We walk in the grace and truth that Jesus came to bring. We are then able to be and act as sons because we are aware what sons do and how they do it. We know we are loved and secured and IN the family. When I know I am loved this way., have no more desire to go outside of His will for me. I've seen how amazing He is. Just like in the Bible when the slave has a choice to leave or stay. He has all he needs with his Master.

The law came by Moses., but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (!!!!!!!!!) we are in a new covenant with new and amazing promises.


 
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LaurenTM

Guest
[video=youtube;PP9V2kBfEAw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP9V2kBfEAw[/video]


You are the Word, You are the Light
We have seen Your glory
Shining in the darkest night
We have seen Your glory

Jesus full of grace and truth
Jesus we will worship You
Jesus one and only Son
We have seen Your glory
(We have seen Your glory)
We have seen Your glory
(We have seen Your glory)

You are the Lamb Who gives us life
We have seen Your glory
Born of God we testify
We have seen Your glory

Son of God and son of man
We have seen Your glory
All creation in Your hand
We have seen Your glory
I never heard this one

beautiful

thank you JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
which is why I kept not seeing this (hate to use the word) 'hyper' thing

I have changed my mind ..repented to agree with the Bible...quite a few times from what I was taught in the church I spent 15 years in...from the age of 5 to the age of 20

they were 100% OSAS...to the point where it did it did not matter what you did...there was one very sad case...where a man went on the skids...don't know why; I was too young...left his wife and son and was a drunk living on the streets. I know he died eventually and I don't know anything else other than that 'he went home to be with the Lord'

so, I never had law introduced to grace until years later and began to believe there was more to grace than grace

but when we put it all together, is when it starts to make sense
As to the 'hyper' label, while it was intended by Dr. Brown to be a pejorative term (mission accomplished), when one goes to Romans 5:21 and looks at the Greek for super-abounding grace, the 'hyper' label is not at all far-fetched!


Rom 5 20 hyper.PNG

Regarding those who believe that it doesn't matter what you do and you're still saved, well, yes, the argument can be made for that, but it ignores the transformative power of grace - as we mature in Christ we don't WANT to sin. But during that process, I do like how Rob Rufus puts it:

. . . when you shine a light [Grace] into an attic and see all the dust and dirt there [sin], it’s not Grace that *caused* the sin, or looks past it as though it doesn’t exist, but Grace exposes it – but it exposes it in a redemptive context of love and forgiveness, not in a context of fear of punishment like law does, where if you don’t keep ‘short accounts with God’ and then get straightened out and fly right, there are eternal consequences.

As for the man you referenced above, we cannot judge whether or not he was truly in Christ, though the fruit would suggest not. Yet we know that in Christ, 'all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial' (1 Cor. 6), and that the body at Corinth was exhorted to 'hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord' (1 Cor. 5), this man referred to by Paul as having committed sins that pagans would not even tolerate!

I think that the lesson here is that WE are not qualified to determine who is saved and who is not based on their behavior. That said, we don't have to allow folks who are walking in sin to be in our local bodies, either. Those types of situations are always so very difficult, but all we can really do is keep pointing folks to Christ, because it is He Who does the work in any of us, amen? What we can do is support and love well those left in the wake of such sinning. But it is God Who will do the final sorting of sheep and goats, and He can/must be trusted to do so.

-JGIG
 
P

popeye

Guest
this thread was never started to discuss hyper anything

to be sure, people have tried very hard to make it about what some are calling hyper grace

however, if the op is actually read, it can be seen that is not the topic

the title does NOT read hyper grace...it says 'hyper stuff' and the op explains what I had in mind

this is from the op:




we do not have a cure for sin

only God does

it is called GRACE
....and the LOF
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.


16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.


Still looking for the scriptures that condone hyper grace might be up all night.


 
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Feb 24, 2015
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Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus
Phil 2:5

Someone suggested I was asking people to think like me. I said I was not asking
that, I was putting forward a point of view.

After looking at what Paul says, we need to all have the same mindset as Jesus
Christ.

Some are striving for unity of the Spirit without unity of the mind. This will not work.

"we do not have a cure of sin" - sin is not a disease, it is the fruit of a lack of relationship
with God.

Grace is an attribute of God, but love is His nature, with holiness and purity.
Where God is present, then life flows. I cannot relate to using the word grace as a replacement
of God, the Lord is "I am" And the beginning of this relationship is the cross and repentance,
a contrite heart, a heart desiring love.

Saying hello to God does not make us able to walk in righteousness, it is through transformation of
our minds and hearts as we walk in obedience, and become Children of the Most High.
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
There are 3 laws in the NT. The law of the Spirit, the law of Christ, and the law of sin. Those who can understand and willing to study and hear the Word of God will know and understand. Yes Grace abounds, but these 3 laws are of God and from God to the NT church.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus
Phil 2:5

Someone suggested I was asking people to think like me. I said I was not asking
that, I was putting forward a point of view.

After looking at what Paul says, we need to all have the same mindset as Jesus
Christ.

Some are striving for unity of the Spirit without unity of the mind. This will not work.

"we do not have a cure of sin" - sin is not a disease, it is the fruit of a lack of relationship
with God.

Grace is an attribute of God, but love is His nature, with holiness and purity.
Where God is present, then life flows. I cannot relate to using the word grace as a replacement
of God, the Lord is "I am" And the beginning of this relationship is the cross and repentance,
a contrite heart, a heart desiring love.

Saying hello to God does not make us able to walk in righteousness, it is through transformation of
our minds and hearts as we walk in obedience, and become Children of the Most High.

GM Peter!
If in each of us, our mind is being renewed, then this means we are all at a different stage of this.
So if we can't have unity in love, forgiveness, and a bearing with each other in the Holy Spirit, what unity can we have if all of our minds are constantly being renewed to think as God thinks about things?

To say all children must have a unity of mind is to say that until everyone has perfect knowledge, there can be no unity in the Spirit.

Your last paragraph is good! But compare it to what you said about unity of mind being necessary before we can walk in the Spirit.

Do you see?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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We don't become children of God - we are now children of God - Beloved by our Father and Lord.

Doing righteous deeds does not make us righteous - Jesus has made us righteous through His work only on the cross and resurrection. You will never become any more righteous then you are when you received Christ when you believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

There are "fruits of righteousness" but that is a different subject. This is a fruit of the righteousness that is in our new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

Awake to righteousness and sin not. Awake to who you are in Christ. Awake means to "come to oneself" - "to sober up to who you really are". We are the righteousness of God in Christ. Christ is our righteousness.

Religion is in the sin management business. Christ is in the righteousness business. He has made us righteous in Him.

We have now new hearts in Christ. We are not "getting new hearts". This is just "us" trying to obtain something that already "is" through our own self-effort.

It is our minds that need to be renewed to the truth of who we are in Christ now that we are one with Him in the Spirit.

Religion and the philosophy of man is always "trying to obtain" what Christ has already done by His finished work.

These are all manifestations of the grace of God ( whether one wants to call it hyper - super abundant or not )

Romans 8:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,


Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
 
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