* I ran this by LaurenTM before posting publicly, and she was fine with me posting it as it is a primer on PeterJens' posting style, and has some value to the readers here. Thanks, Lauren!
Saying hello to God does not make us able to walk in righteousness, it is through transformation of
our minds and hearts as we walk in obedience, and become Children of the Most High.
GM Peter!
If in each of us, our mind is being renewed, then this means we are all at a different stage of this.
So if we can't have unity in love, forgiveness, and a bearing with each other in the Holy Spirit, what unity can we have if all of our minds are constantly being renewed to think as God thinks about things?
To say all children must have a unity of mind is to say that until everyone has perfect knowledge, there can be no unity in the Spirit.
Your last paragraph is good! But compare it to what you said about unity of mind being necessary before we can walk in the Spirit.
Do you see?
Stunned, if you read what Peter writes carefully, and perhaps go back over a history of his posts, you will notice the subtle differences in what he believes about the walk of the believer, which requires
good behavior from someone BEFORE Christ 'can' dwell in them. Peter writes:
Originally Posted by PeterJens
Saying hello to God does not make us able to walk in righteousness, it is through transformation of
our minds and hearts as we walk in obedience, and become Children of the Most High.
Subtle, but he's not crediting the changing of our minds and hearts to Christ, but that 'it is through the transformation of our minds and hearts' - PeterJens sees this as a
self-work,
not the work of Christ in us.
From another post:
Originally Posted by PeterJens
We are called just to bless, correct sin and encourage others to Christ.
So all this antagonism about being righteous and pure is just double talk.
Part of learning being "good" alone without Christ is part of the spiritual reality.
Only in knowing love and it being freed within your soul can Christ truly live in you.
Do you see the subtle shift there? In PeterJens' view, it's not what Christ did to qualify you by His Blood and His Work in you that produces fruit, but you
'learning to be good alone without Christ' - that is part of PeterJens' spiritual reality! It grieves my spirit to even write those words! In Christ we live and move and have our being!
PeterJens continues that Christ can only
truly live within you if have love all figured out and it being 'freed in your soul'??? What does that even mean?
Scripture says we love because God first loved us, not that we have to 'know love and it needs to be freed in our soul!' Where is PeterJens getting this stuff?
PeterJens says some things that sound right, but then will contradict core beliefs about salvation clearly laid out in Scripture.
Add to that how he incrementally morphs his posts 'quoting' other posters. Here's a prime example:
Paul Ellis' article,
8 Signs of Hyper-Grace Churches, lists these 8 headings within the article:
1. They preach Jesus and nothing but Jesus
2. They reveal a God who loves you like a Father
3. They esteem the words of Jesus
4. They esteem the law and the purpose for which it is given
5. They understand that obedience is a fruit not a root
6. They empower people to overcome sin
7. They promote security and trust
8. They will look like Jesus, smell like Jesus, walk like Jesus, and talk like Jesus
PeterJens took that list, and taking words out of context, turned it into this:
Originally Posted by PeterJens
HG church
"Your greatest need is for a revelation of Jesus Christ"
"revelation of our heavenly Father who loves us and cares for us and desires for us to come home."
"the only ones taking Jesus seriously."
"The law is for those who trust in themselves and their own righteousness rather than in Christ and his."
"They don’t need rules to tell them what to do for the Holy Spirit himself is their guide"
sin - "they will point you to the living Grace of God"
"promote faith and confidence by proclaiming the promises of Jesus"
"attractive to sinners and unappealing to the self-righteous"
My problem is two fold. The picture of both the traditional church is wrong and the core issue
of how you deal with sin in the body is not properly addressed.
Let's compare PeterJens synopsis with what the article actually says:
PeterJens: HG church - "Your greatest need is for a revelation of Jesus Christ"
From the article:
In a quest for holiness a mixed-grace church may preach a little law, a little self-help, or a little pop psychology, but it’s all just a flesh trip. In contrast, a hyper-grace church preaches Christ alone. Whatever your need, whether it’s salvation or sanctification, your supply is found in the One who promises to meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus (Php 4:19). You don’t need seven steps or fifteen keys or an intensive course of study. Your greatest need is for a revelation of Jesus Christ and what he has done on your behalf.
PeterJens: HG church - "revelation of our heavenly Father who loves us and cares for us and desires for us to come home."
From the article:
Hyper-grace churches understand that what an orphaned world most needs is a revelation of our heavenly Father who loves us and cares for us and desires for us to come home. They follow the lead of Jesus who spoke again and again of “Our Father in heaven” (Matt 6:9). They understand that everything good in life is built on the revelation that “My Father loves me more than I know,” and that this is the revelation that will change men and close abortion clinics and end culture wars.
PeterJens: HG church - "the only ones taking Jesus seriously."
From the article: A common misperception is that hyper-grace churches disregard the teachings of Jesus. In point of fact, hyper-grace churches are the only ones taking Jesus seriously. When Jesus is preaching law, we say that’s serious law and when Jesus is revealing grace, we bow in breathless gratitude. We would not dare to re-interpret his words with qualifiers and caveats.
In contrast, those who preach mixed-grace dismiss the hard words of Jesus as hyperbole and exaggeration. “Jesus didn’t mean what he said about chopping off limbs or being perfect.” Like the Pharisees of old, a mixed-grace church picks and chooses those commands which are to be followed while disregarding others as metaphorical, unreal, and not to be taken seriously.
PeterJens: HG church - "The law is for those who trust in themselves and their own righteousness rather than in Christ and his."
From the article: Hyper-grace churches are often accused of being opposed to the law when, in fact, they esteem the law and agree with Paul who said “the law is good if one uses it properly” (1 Tim 1:8). They understand that the “law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers … and those who oppose the glorious gospel of the blessed God” (1 Tim 1:9-11). The law is for those who trust in themselves and their own righteousness rather than in Christ and his.
A mixed-grace church promotes the law as a guide and standard for righteous living. Under this perspective grace is reduced to little more than a lubricant for greasing the cogs of self-effort. Ironically, those who live this way reveal their disregard for both law and grace – law, since they cannot keep it yet pretend to, and grace, since they would rather trust in their own efforts than in Christ’s finished work. Such a church is lukewarm. They are neither submitting to the cold and unbending demands of the law or the white-hot love and grace of their Father.
PeterJens: HG church - "They don’t need rules to tell them what to do for the Holy Spirit himself is their guide"
From the article: A mixed-grace church says you must obey God commands in order to prove your love but a hyper-grace church takes Jesus at his word: “If you love me, you will obey what I command” (John 14:15). They understand that obedience is not birthed out of fear but love. Those who are resting in the unconditional love of their Father will trust him and do what he says without any conscious effort. They don’t need rules to tell them what to do for the Holy Spirit himself is their guide (John 16:13).
PeterJens: HG church - sin - "they will point you to the living Grace of God"
From the article: If you sin, a hyper-grace church won’t throw stones or shame you. Instead they will point you to the living Grace of God who dealt with all your sins on the cross. They will say with the apostle John, “If anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).
Stumble and sin in a mixed-grace church and the message you get will be, “Look at what you did!” But a hyper-grace church will say, “Look at what he did and what you can now do because of what he did!” Mixed-grace churches areobsessed with sin – resisting it, fighting it, avoiding it. In contrast, hyper-grace churches are Christ-focused, not sin-focused.
A mixed-grace church would have you turn from every sin until you’re a dizzy sinner. But a hyper-grace church will release the supernatural grace of God that empowers you to sin no more. They will do what Paul did with the sinning Corinthians and reveal your true identity in Christ. You are “sanctified in Christ Jesus… I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. In him you have been enriched in every way (and) he will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor 1:2-8). We are not changed by our resolve and sheer determination. We are changed by beholding Jesus who lives within us.
PeterJens: HG church - "promote faith and confidence by proclaiming the promises of Jesus"
From article: Hyper-grace churches promote faith and confidence by proclaiming the promises of Jesus: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them… no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:26-27). We don’t stand on our promises to him, but on his many good and great promises to us. Rest, be at peace, for it is God who keeps you firm to the end. The One who holds the universe in his hand, can surely hold you!
But in mixed-grace churches, your standing is based on your promises to God rather than his promises to you. Let God down and you will need to make new promises and work harder to keep them. Where is the security in this? There is none. No guarantees are offered or even desired for a measure of uncertainty is seen as an essential for keeping the sheep in line and under control. This way lies misery and despair.
PeterJens: HG church - "attractive to sinners and unappealing to the self-righteous"
From article: A hyper-grace church is attractive to sinners and unappealing to the self-righteous. It is a place where the prodigals come home and the zealots stay out. It is a family where the broken are made whole, the captives are freed, and all are loved. It is the City come down, it is heaven-on-earth, and it is God’s best advertisement for the kingdom of his grace.
Note how PeterJens pulled the words out of context to cast what was written in a bad light.
Then he 'summed it up' into this, referring to the article, and morphing it into this:
PeterJens: The criticism of the HG approach is actually laid out.
1. If someone sins we just "point you to the living Grace of God"
2. Don't need rules or scripture just the Holy Spirit
3. Morality is for hypocrites
4. Jesus words dismissed as only impossible standards to create condemnation.
5. Confrontation of sin is not appealing to sinners.
After reading the article, he got of it that we believe that 'morality is for hypocrites'? Really?!
But wait, it gets better - in a subsequent post, PeterJens tells the readers that
Originally Posted by PeterJens
The following 5 points are obvious conclusions from JGIG's list.
1. If someone sins we just "point you to the living Grace of God"
2. Don't need rules or scripture just the Holy Spirit
3. Morality is for hypocrites
4. Jesus words dismissed as only impossible standards to create condemnation.
5. Confrontation of sin is not appealing to sinners.
That list is a distortion concocted from PeterJens mind about what HE THINKS the Gospel of Grace is. And his 'obvious conclusions' are not from 'JGIG's list', but from his complete misreading of Paul Ellis' article. In re-framing his 'obvious conclusions' as from 'JGIG's list', he is attempting to bring his dispute from a source outside of CC and to me as a poster here, making it a personal attack, trying to make it look as if HIS LIST is what I BELIEVE. This is a complete misrepresentation and a pattern repeated time and again by PeterJens.
So, Stunnedbygrace, posts like those above (not those written a year or even a month ago, as you seem to see 'growth' in PeterJens) are what we take issue with. He consistently misrepresents and distorts what other posters write. Oh sure, he'll write something 'nice' or something that appears to be sound, but will contradict it in the very same or the next post. The doublemindedness of the man is evident, along with his faulty soteriology (see his first two comments referenced above).
Does this mean that I don't love PeterJens, pray for PeterJens, hope the best for him in his walk (whatever that is)? No, but I and others here cannot stand by 'Oh, Peter, that was such a wonderful post' in the midst of this pattern of machination.
Respectfully submitted,
-JGIG
.
