A Kingdom United

[SCHISM]

I was of the "legalistic" mindset for nearly four years, wanting to keep the law according to Moses, not to earn salvation which is by faith in Him, but because it appeared that Christian doctrine teaches disobedience to things God said to do "for ever" and "alway," and I wanted to be an obedient child to our Father in heaven. I processed instructions from the Bible very rationally, and it is right and good esteem God's words and the words of the Messiah above the doctrines of men. However, there were some words that I neglected such as Trust and Faith because they are not rational. I had faith that the blood of the Messiah could cleanse me of my sins, but I trusted in my own rational thinking rather than having trust in Him. When God says that certain ordinances are to be kept "for ever" and statutes and judgments kept "alway," and the church no longer keeps those ordinances, statutes, or judgments, then they are wrong and have taken His name in vain. That is a rational statement, and one that is arguably true. One of the methods used by "legalistic" and rational thinkers is to find the true meaning of words that may have been mistranslated or translated in a way that leads to misinterpretation and to build their doctrine based on the true meaning of God's word. When done this way, there are many paths to choose based on which meaning of each word you choose to follow. What seems to be the straight and narrow eventually becomes wider and broad. I testify today that Faith in Jesus Christ is the only true way. A Christian preacher once told me not to get hung up on words such as "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," and that Christ made things anew. Well, if he is telling me to ignore words spoken by our Father, then he is deceived. He was right all along. Those words "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," come from H5769 and H3117. H5769 also means long duration, and it is sometimes translated as "time," "ancient," "long," "more," and others. H3117 also means a duration of time, and it is sometimes translated as "day," "time," "when," "while," and others. Those things which I once thought God said to do forever could have meant only for a long time. On our own there are thousands of different interpretations we could make. But with Jesus Christ, He makes those decisions for us, and He is the way and the truth. I welcome anyone to discuss what reasons or rationalizations they have for keeping the old law. I know how you might feel and think, and I want us to be in a kingdom together that will not fall. I know what it is like when you try to reason with someone who's first response is to ask you if you know about the crucifixion, but it is very humbling when you realize they were right. Just a shoutout to disciplemike and others. I welcome you to real debate because I love you. Thank you Jesus Christ.

 

[SCHISM]

I want to add. I do not judge or condemn anyone who wants to keep the old law. Some things are unseen. As long as you believe in Jesus Christ you will be saved. He may refine each of us in different ways. God bless.

 

[KohenMatt]

I was of the "legalistic" mindset for nearly four years, wanting to keep the law according to Moses, not to earn salvation which is by faith in Him, but because it appeared that Christian doctrine teaches disobedience to things God said to do "for ever" and "alway," and I wanted to be an obedient child to our Father in heaven. I processed instructions from the Bible very rationally, and it is right and good esteem God's words and the words of the Messiah above the doctrines of men. However, there were some words that I neglected such as Trust and Faith because they are not rational. I had faith that the blood of the Messiah could cleanse me of my sins, but I trusted in my own rational thinking rather than having trust in Him. When God says that certain ordinances are to be kept "for ever" and statutes and judgments kept "alway," and the church no longer keeps those ordinances, statutes, or judgments, then they are wrong and have taken His name in vain. That is a rational statement, and one that is arguably true. One of the methods used by "legalistic" and rational thinkers is to find the true meaning of words that may have been mistranslated or translated in a way that leads to misinterpretation and to build their doctrine based on the true meaning of God's word. When done this way, there are many paths to choose based on which meaning of each word you choose to follow. What seems to be the straight and narrow eventually becomes wider and broad. I testify today that Faith in Jesus Christ is the only true way. A Christian preacher once told me not to get hung up on words such as "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," and that Christ made things anew. Well, if he is telling me to ignore words spoken by our Father, then he is deceived. He was right all along. Those words "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," come from H5769 and H3117. H5769 also means long duration, and it is sometimes translated as "time," "ancient," "long," "more," and others. H3117 also means a duration of time, and it is sometimes translated as "day," "time," "when," "while," and others. Those things which I once thought God said to do forever could have meant only for a long time. On our own there are thousands of different interpretations we could make. But with Jesus Christ, He makes those decisions for us, and He is the way and the truth. I welcome anyone to discuss what reasons or rationalizations they have for keeping the old law. I know how you might feel and think, and I want us to be in a kingdom together that will not fall. I know what it is like when you try to reason with someone who's first response is to ask you if you know about the crucifixion, but it is very humbling when you realize they were right. Just a shoutout to disciplemike and others. I welcome you to real debate because I love you. Thank you Jesus Christ.

A couple of things....
First, paragraphs are wonderful things.

Second, one of the verses that can clarify the duration of the applicability of the Law is Matthew 5 where Jesus says "until heaven and earth pass away." While I recognize that there are some Scriptures that can have a different understanding of time, there are other that are pretty clear and definitive.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I was of the "legalistic" mindset for nearly four years, wanting to keep the law according to Moses, not to earn salvation which is by faith in Him, but because it appeared that Christian doctrine teaches disobedience to things God said to do "for ever" and "alway," and I wanted to be an obedient child to our Father in heaven. I processed instructions from the Bible very rationally, and it is right and good esteem God's words and the words of the Messiah above the doctrines of men. However, there were some words that I neglected such as Trust and Faith because they are not rational. I had faith that the blood of the Messiah could cleanse me of my sins, but I trusted in my own rational thinking rather than having trust in Him. When God says that certain ordinances are to be kept "for ever" and statutes and judgments kept "alway," and the church no longer keeps those ordinances, statutes, or judgments, then they are wrong and have taken His name in vain. That is a rational statement, and one that is arguably true. One of the methods used by "legalistic" and rational thinkers is to find the true meaning of words that may have been mistranslated or translated in a way that leads to misinterpretation and to build their doctrine based on the true meaning of God's word. When done this way, there are many paths to choose based on which meaning of each word you choose to follow. What seems to be the straight and narrow eventually becomes wider and broad. I testify today that Faith in Jesus Christ is the only true way. A Christian preacher once told me not to get hung up on words such as "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," and that Christ made things anew. Well, if he is telling me to ignore words spoken by our Father, then he is deceived. He was right all along. Those words "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," come from H5769 and H3117. H5769 also means long duration, and it is sometimes translated as "time," "ancient," "long," "more," and others. H3117 also means a duration of time, and it is sometimes translated as "day," "time," "when," "while," and others. Those things which I once thought God said to do forever could have meant only for a long time. On our own there are thousands of different interpretations we could make. But with Jesus Christ, He makes those decisions for us, and He is the way and the truth. I welcome anyone to discuss what reasons or rationalizations they have for keeping the old law. I know how you might feel and think, and I want us to be in a kingdom together that will not fall. I know what it is like when you try to reason with someone who's first response is to ask you if you know about the crucifixion, but it is very humbling when you realize they were right. Just a shoutout to disciplemike and others. I welcome you to real debate because I love you. Thank you Jesus Christ.

That's right. The Law was added with divinely determined planned obsolescence….“until the Seed should come” (Gal. 3:19). For…."Christ is the end of the Law..." (Rom. 10:4). Jesus has come! Thank you Jesus!

 

[SCHISM]

A couple of things....
First, paragraphs are wonderful things.

Second, one of the verses that can clarify the duration of the applicability of the Law is Matthew 5 where Jesus says "until heaven and earth pass away." While I recognize that there are some Scriptures that can have a different understanding of time, there are other that are pretty clear and definitive.

I agree that the heaven and earth will pass away before any word or letter of the law passes. That is true.

However, this does not specify the duration of time that parts of the law are applicable.

God said to do certain things for a time, and those words shall never pass away, but the words used to specify the duration of time that those things are to be done do not specifically mean forever. Is that statement true?

 

[KohenMatt]

I agree that the heaven and earth will pass away before any word or letter of the law passes. That is true.

However, this does not specify the duration of time that parts of the law are applicable.

God said to do certain things for a time, and those words shall never pass away, but the words used to specify the duration of time that those things are to be done do not specifically mean forever. Is that statement true?

I'd say Matthew 5 is pretty definitive in duration and completeness:

Until heaven and earth pass away.
Not one letter of it.

 

[SCHISM]

I'd say Matthew 5 is pretty definitive in duration and completeness:

Until heaven and earth pass away.
Not one letter of it.

That is true. The words will not pass away.

Genesis 13:15 "For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."
Those words will not pass away. The word "ever" is H5769.

And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. H5769

Those words will not pass away.

How long does for ever H5769 mean?

If the earth passes away, then can they still have the land?

Or does the word for ever H5769 have another meaning; a duration with and end at some unspecified point in time?

Then is it possible that some works of the law were fulfilled and put to an end, not an end where they were never said or that they are forgotten but at an end where God no longer expects us to practice them physically but spiritually?

 

[KohenMatt]

Then is it possible that some works of the law were fulfilled and put to an end, not an end where they were never said or that they are forgotten but at an end where God no longer expects us to practice them physically but spiritually?

This is an important distinction that many miss.

Obviously, not all of the Law is still physically applicable. You will find virtually no one in either Judaism or Christianity who believe it is all physically applicable.

But as you mentioned, and as I've been advocating for as long as I've been here, ALL of the Laws is applicable physically and/or spiritually. For every one of the 613 laws, there is an application if we look for it and pray. Sadly, many won't even consider doing this.

 

[SCHISM]

So, knowing the law and spiritual understanding of the law is not for salvation, justification, righteousness, standing or approval from God, therefore none are required to keep it. Would you say it is spiritually rewarding? Not in the sense that you will have a greater mansion in heaven but in the sense that it feels good to learn these spiritual connections to the law that was once considered physical? I would say, Great, please share those connections. No real argument there from either side. Are we agreed?

 

[FreeNChrist]

"For I assure you and most solemnly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke [of the pen] will pass from the Law until all things [which it foreshadows] are accomplished." Matt. 5:18 (amp)

What the Law foreshadowed has been accomplished through Christs finished work on the cross. All that God intended for the restoration of mankind has taken place in the death, ressurection, ascension, and Pentecostal outpouring of Jesus Christ.

 

[KohenMatt]

So, knowing the law and spiritual understanding of the law is not for salvation, justification, righteousness, standing or approval from God, therefore none are required to keep it. Would you say it is spiritually rewarding? Not in the sense that you will have a greater mansion in heaven but in the sense that it feels good to learn these spiritual connections to the law that was once considered physical? I would say, Great, please share those connections. No real argument there from either side. Are we agreed?

For the most part, yes.

I would say it is spiritually rewarding to walk in obedience to whatever it is that God calls you to (even the Law.)
Although I would say that following the Law is more than just feeling good about learning something.
But Jesus does say that those who follow the Law and teaches others to do it will be great in the Kingdom and those who will be the least. (That one is a touchy subject, I know.)

 

[Vdp]

There is nothing wrong with observing the Law. What is wrong is trying to keep the whole Law by your own efforts. Clearly no one can keep the whole Law. But many do try thinking this is how they will enter into Heaven.

We are under Grace and the Law has been fulfilled.

If you want to observe the Law God will allow you to observe it. But do not be deceived by any who teach keeping the Law is what is demanded by God for entrance into Heaven.

 

[Magenta]

Those words "perpetual," "alway," "for ever," come from H5769 and H3117. H5769 also means long duration, and it is sometimes translated as "time," "ancient," "long," "more," and others. H3117 also means a duration of time, and it is sometimes translated as "day," "time," "when," "while," and others. Those things which I once thought God said to do forever could have meant only for a long time.

Or until God's purposes are fulfilled. Try telling that to people who reject the clear teaching of Scriptures regarding the wages of sin being death, and that eternal life is gained only through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on our behalf... because to them, death is not enough of a punishment, or even a punishment at all, much to my perplexity. Oh well! About the law... The law is still in effect for those not covered by the righteous blood of Christ, and the penalty of death ever after shall be exacted on them at the end.

No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the
law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
* For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,
God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.

 

[KohenMatt]

There is nothing wrong with observing the Law. What is wrong is trying to keep the whole Law by your own efforts. Clearly no one can keep the whole Law. But many do try thinking this is how they will enter into Heaven.

We are under Grace and the Law has been fulfilled.

If you want to observe the Law God will allow you to observe it. But do not be deceived by any who teach keeping the Law is what is demanded by God for entrance into Heaven.

Amen.

If only more people on BOTH sides of the Law-observance debate would get this.

Well said,