If the wilderness Tabernacle was made in the pattern shown to Moses by God...

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Feb 28, 2016
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#41
for those of us who worship and adore and serve our Holy Saviour, Jesus Christ ,we are never 'under anything'
we are 'above' and can only embrace and live our lives in His Holiness and whatsoever He asks us to do,
according to His Will, and not our own...
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#42
Is it a possibility that true Gentiles (non-Israelites) cannot "go back to the law" because they never had the law? And in the same way, those who had the law, that is the House of Israel (Jesus called them lost sheep) who God divorced and Jesus death, burial and resurrection brought the House of Israel back into a new covenant that is actually a renewal of covenant?

IMO, NO-LAW versus PRO-LAW individuals may have a different "calling" and us who love God by keeping His forever commandments, are drawn by the Spirit. We PRO-law are not committing adultery, because we know God through THE WORD, and we know the only name that will save us, that is Jesus in English or Yeshua in Hebrew. We know the whole Bible is applicable to our lives and there is no error in the Word. But, what of the no-law guys? Are they not also being led by the Spirit? For both parties, Some scriptures cling to us and we can't shake them off. The Jews are our brothers. The Christian no-law are also members of the same body as the pro-law are members of the same body, for all have sinned and know Jesus is the only door to the re-United kingdom. That is IMO, is the division of least in kingdom versus great in kingdom. Our walk in this life will bring about deserving rewards versus works that burn up and become as ashes, and worthless.

It's time to see we are really are on the same team....just different body parts with different functions, but all have the same head, Jesus Christ (not Paul). I hope this is a reasonable "view".


Jeremiah 3:Israel's and Judah's Unfaithfulness
7"I thought, 'After she has done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8"And I saw that for allthe adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her awayand given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacheroussister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlotalso. 9"Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.…

shall come forth from their midst; And I will bring him near and he shall approach Me; For who would dare to risk his life to approach Me?' declares the LORD.22You shall be My people, And I will be your God.'"23Behold, the tempest of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, A sweeping tempest; It will burst on the head of the wicked.…Cross References
Exodus 6:7
'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Jeremiah 24:7
'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 31:1
"At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people."

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Jeremiah 32:38
"They shall be My people, and I will be their God;

Ezekiel 36:28
"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Hosea 2:23
"I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, 'You are my God!'"

Zechariah 13:9
"And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"
Law and Grace is not one "team". They are opposed at every point. They do not and cannot co-exist...either as the grounds for our acceptance by God or as the rule of life.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#43
for those of us who worship and adore and serve our Holy Saviour, Jesus Christ ,we are never 'under anything'
we are 'above' and can only embrace and live our lives in His Holiness and whatsoever He asks us to do,
according to His Will, and not our own...
Speak for yourself. I am under Gods grace.
 
J

jcha

Guest
#44
Law and Grace is not one "team". They are opposed at every point. They do not and cannot co-exist...either as the grounds for our acceptance by God or as the rule of life.
Does the Bible have any errors? Law (God's commandments) Grace (God's salvation) are one and the same. What does not work with grace is lawlessness.

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Revelation 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus

Revelation 12:
17And the dragon was enraged at thewoman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


1 Corinthians 7:19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commandments is what matters.

Ecclesiastes 12:. 13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

1 John 5:…2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3Forthis is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,


 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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#45
well said Dan_473 lol. yes i think some of us are attracted to the Jewish culture and its traditions; that why we are bent on keeping the laws , at all cost. well go ahead, but as for us( the graced ones) we will live the good and perfect life that was procure for us at Calvary; To him be all glory

yes, it all seems so simple,

GALATIANS 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


also, welcome to CC, heavenly_bound!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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#46
my beloved brethren, in God's economy, there's no us! we are death (Col 3:3-5) how can someone who is death continues to keep any law whatsoever? The Son has replaced us!!!!(Gal 2 ;20). This is the mystery of God that He hid even before the foundations of the world!!! That we will live the life of another; that we will be defined by another!!

I like that idea:

dead people can't keep laws.
 
H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#47
yes, it all seems so simple,

GALATIANS 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


also, welcome to CC, heavenly_bound!
thanks bro.blessed
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#48
how significant is it that the foundation of the throne contained the ten commandments?
very interesting.
About as significant that it contained a bowl of manna.

Jesus is the Word, the Manna/bread from Heaven. His body was the Tabernacle and His life and teachings revealed the spiritual reality of all the symbolic items found in the Tabernacle.

It's interesting to compare Revelation description of Heaven and God's instruction of how to build the Tabernacle.

Someone at our church did a Bible study about what all the items stood for. Really interesting but can't explain it without digging up notes.
 
H

heavenly_bound

Guest
#49
jcha;2744615[B said:
]Does the Bible have any errors?[/B] Law (God's commandments) Grace (God's salvation) are one and the same. What does not work with grace is lawlessness.

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Revelation 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus

Revelation 12:
17And the dragon was enraged at thewoman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


1 Corinthians 7:19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commandments is what matters.

Ecclesiastes 12:. 13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

1 John 5:…2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3Forthis is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,



yes the bible has errors( the OT). before i justify my statement, i would like to say this, we have the habit of quoting what the bible says, but we don't say what it means when it says what it says!like i said, the bible has errors in the sense that not all What God said in the old testament was correctly interpreted! what God said in the OT was interpreted through filtered minds such that before what God said could reach the people( from the prophets),it was diluted. it was sometimes mixed with human logic, until the arrival of God Himself in the flesh;
i will give two examples.1) prophet Samuel asked king soul to kill the Amaleks including women children and their cattle(1 Sam 15:2-3), well lets see if what the prophet said was exactly what God said by examining God in the flesh! The Samaritans refused Jesus from passing through Samaria to go to Jerusalem, and James and John asked the Lord to give them permission to call down fire from to destroy the Samaritans just like Elijah ; but the Lord rebuked them sternly and said to them" you do not know of what spirit ye are of, for the Son of man has come to save not to destroy"2) well we all know of the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery and the verdict the Lord passed! you would always find Jesus on multiple occasions saying " it was said, but i say"
in order to accurately interpret the scriptures, it must be done in the light of God's LOGIC, which was manifested in the flesh(The Lord Jesus).
i don't care if anyone spits fire out of his mouth in the name of a prophet, if that person doesn't reflect God in the flesh, i wouldn't listen, not even if they quote scriptures correctly!!!
i can only speak for myself
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#50
For one thing, you know Abraham lied, so that blows theory #1 all to pieces.
.

are you referring to when Abraham introduced his wife as his sister?
how did he lie by that when it [was] his sister?




Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge,
my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#51
Does the Bible have any errors? Law (God's commandments) Grace (God's salvation) are one and the same. What does not work with grace is lawlessness.

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Revelation 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus

Revelation 12:
17And the dragon was enraged at thewoman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


1 Corinthians 7:19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commandments is what matters.

Ecclesiastes 12:. 13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

1 John 5:…2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3Forthis is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,


Nope, its strictly an either/or proposition. What you propose is Spiritual polyandry, which is offensive to God. "I died to the Law that I might live to God" (Gal 2:19).

If you have not died to the Law, then you cannot live to God.
 
J

jcha

Guest
#52
Nope, its strictly an either/or proposition. What you propose is Spiritual polyandry, which is offensive to God. "I died to the Law that I might live to God" (Gal 2:19).

If you have not died to the Law, then you cannot live to God.
Paul teaches that we have died to the law of sin and death. He does not say we died to God's Torah.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#53
Paul teaches that we have died to the law of sin and death. He does not say we died to God's Torah.
Look carefully at how Paul in Rom. 7:6-8 uses #10 of the big ten, “Thou shall not covet”, as the very example of the Law which we were in bondage to, but which we have now died to and been released from.
 
J

jcha

Guest
#54
Look carefully at how Paul in Rom. 7:6-8 uses #10 of the big ten, “Thou shall not covet”, as the very example of the Law which we were in bondage to, but which we have now died to and been released from.
Romans 6: 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Does not say "he that is dead is freed from the commandments of God .... His Torah"
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#55
Romans 6:7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Does not say "he that is dead is freed from the commandments of God .... His Torah"
So, "thou shall not covet" is not one of the ten commandments of God? I'll be danged. :rolleyes:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#56
Paul teaches that we have died to the law of sin and death. He does not say we died to God's Torah.

yes, he does.

dead is dead.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
(Galatians 4:21)​

Paul is very clearly taking specifically about the Torah, the Law of Moses, throughout Galatians, not some ephemeral and ill-defined 'law of sin and death.'

in the context of what i quoted above, what follows is a description of two covenants by allegory of Isaac and Ishmael, born of a slave woman and a free woman. Paul very clearly states that the Torah comes through the slave woman, by figure, and makes slaves of all who are under it. but he says, the children of faith are through Isaac - and are of the free woman, and are made free. not under Torah.

never does Paul place gentiles under Torah.
in fact, the entire book of Galatians is a sharp rebuke to those Gentiles who were "bewitched" into thinking they must be under Torah.

this does not go contrary to Torah. Christ fulfilled Torah, and in Him all the righteousness that slaves to the Torah are held accountable to is fulfilled in those who live by faith.

the flesh profits nothing; the spirit gives life.​

if you think you are under Torah, you say Christ died for nothing.
if you teach others to be enslaved under Torah, you make them slaves too, and preach against Christ.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#57

there is no temple in the city there,
because the Lord Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
because there is no temple, there is no throne,
because the throne was in the temple.

the people do not live under a law, because they are free.
they are sons and daughters, not slaves - and need no law.
the law is written inside them.

whoever has a nature that is contrary to righteousness, that person must live under law in order to practice goodness.
but whoever has a righteous nature, does not need law, because they practice goodness from their hearts.
this is why Christ came, and the glory of His mercy towards us:
He has given us a new nature, and we are born again free!

i'm afraid that if you do not comprehend this,
you do not even see the Kingdom at all.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#58
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
I find it strange and confusing when people say nobody could obey the commands, that's simply not in the scriptures, think about it, would you command your child to do something you knew they could never do, and then appoint condemnation when they don't? I just don't get it.....
Being blameless is different from being sinless. David was said to Have a heart that sought after God, but yet he had someone killed so he could cover up adultery.

He sinned, yet could still be considered blameless because he believed in the prophecies of Christ. While the child lived he faster and in ash clothes but after the child died he rose and ate.

I haven't read all this thread, but the thread title and the Word tabernacle keeps drawing me back.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#59
Romans 6:7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Does not say "he that is dead is freed from the commandments of God .... His Torah"
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ
(Romans 7:4)

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:6)
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#60
do you two really not understand this?

or is the truth that you simply reject it?