(ritual) circumcisions today

[Dan_473]

I put this up on another thread, but decided to make a separate thread

why don't Roots folks do circumcisions? it seems like it would fit right in with 'if you love me keep my commandments'...

of course, it wouldn't be for salvation... but after being justified by faith, wouldn't it make sense to 'delight yourself in the Law'?

a little more digging after posting that and it turns out that some (most?) Roots people are in favor of circumcision for adult male believers.



some url's

Understanding Circumcision (Part 1 of 2) (part 1)
Understanding Circumcision (Part 2 of 2) (part 2)

Quote from that page
"The Torah, Prophets and the NT teach us that the ideal is having faith in Messiah, have circumcised hearts and seek to follow Torah which includes physical circumcision."






Circumcised at 30! | New2Torah – Torah Observant Followers of Jesus/Yeshua – Hebrew Roots

(I haven't watched the video yet)

Quote from that page
"So if you are considering getting circumcised as an adult, or if someone in your family is, I want to encourage you to do so out of obedience to the God of Abraham with full knowledge that Abraham was justified by faith before his circumcision and his faith was confirmed in his works."



comments?
I'm basically speechless.

 

[FreeNChrist]

As for those agitators?

I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Galatians 5:12

 

[wwjd_kilden]

If this is for adult, consenting, not brainnwashed believers .... let them have their .... fun?

 

[simplifiedtruth]

That is between the individual and God, if he have enough faith to do it. We know that when Israel were learning the commandments in the wilderness they had not circumcised their children. So when they were to enter the land they were all circumcised. Abraham was justified in faith before he's circumcision, and received the circumcision covenant from God to circumcise all the males of all he's descendants. The strangers(Gentiles) who sojourn with Israel are also to be circumcised and keep the same law(Torah) and receive the same promises.

Romans 4:9

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

[Dan_473]

That is between the individual and God, if he have enough faith to do it. We know that when Israel were learning the commandments in the wilderness they had not circumcised their children. So when they were to enter the land they were all circumcised. Abraham was justified in faith before he's circumcision, and received the circumcision covenant from God to circumcise all the males of all he's descendants. The strangers(Gentiles) who sojourn with Israel are also to be circumcised and keep the same law(Torah) and receive the same promises.

Romans 4:9

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

so sounds like yes, you are in favor of ritual circumcision of adult male believers if they have enough faith.

 

[Tommy379]

And who performs this ritual adult circumcision?

 

[simplifiedtruth]

so sounds like yes, you are in favor of ritual circumcision of adult male believers if they have enough faith.

Yes. It is the Abrahamic covenant for all generations. We should walk and live as Jesus and all the patriarchs of the faith did, just as God has commanded. But the circumcision of the heart is what matters, which leads to obedience towards God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That is between the individual and God

No, it's not. It's between the individual, their wife if there is one, and their doctor. There is no spiritual benefit to circumcism. None. Zilch. Nada.

 

[Grace777x70]

Galatians 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

Paul would not yield to the Judaizers for one hour and neither will we.

Going back to the Law in any capacity for living makes us fallen from Christ's grace to have any effect in our lives. It is an anti-Christ belief system.

Galatians 5:2-4 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Quote from article: The Circumcision Controversy ~ Blaine Robison, M.A.

Paul never counseled Jews to quit circumcising their babies. Rather he remonstrated against those who would force Gentile disciples to become proselytes to Judaism. Paul references adult circumcision some 38 times in seven of his letters: Galatians, 1 Corinthians, Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and Titus. So it is in the context of the teaching of the Circumcision sect that Paul felt the need to explain key theological terms like the good news, sin, grace, faith, forgiveness, salvation, law and covenant.
The Circumcision sect was the worst kind of Pharisees, not unlike the seven types of bad Pharisees condemned in the Talmud as hypocrites (Avot 5:9; Sot. 22b). Years later Paul had to warn Titus about the continuing threat of this group:
"For there are many who are rebellious, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those from the circumcision. 11 They must be silenced—those who upset entire households by teaching what they should not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, one of their own prophets, said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.' 13 This testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them sharply, so they might be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Judaic myths and commands of menwho turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Both their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They claim to know God but their deeds deny Him. They are despicable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed." (Titus 1:10-16 TLV)
The Circumcision sect was likely the forerunner of the Ebionites, a splinter Jewish group that existed in the second century into the fourth century. Unlike the Nazarenes, the Ebionites rejected the divine pre-existence of Yeshua and virgin birth. They claimed that Yeshua earned the right to be the Messiah by his faithful observance of Torah. As with the Circumcision sect of the first century, the Ebionites required that Gentile believers be circumcised and keep Jewish laws. Other evidence suggests that the Ebionites rejected Paul, a natural consequence of their position concerning the Torah (Skarsaune 204).

Philippians 3:2-3

2-3 Be on your guard against these curs, these wicked workmen, these would-be mutilators of your bodies! We are, remember, truly circumcised when we worship God by the Spirit, when we find our joy in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in what we are in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:19

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

It is hard to understand Paul since we do not live in he's time. But we can study about that time and learn what was going on to get a better understanding of he's writings and the problems of the time. The circumcision sect.

 

[TrailofTruth]

Paul said circumcision (physical) is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing. We are no longer under the old law. Now we are circumcised spiritually with circumcision of the heart- which God performs (spiritually) during baptism. (Colossians chapter 2). It does not matter today whether or not you physically circumcise, but if you do, you must not do it for religious reasons- for the bible says if you obey any part of a law you must then obey all of it, and obeying the law of Moses and the law of Christ at the same time is committing spiritual adultery. (Romans 7:1-4).

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Paul said circumcision (physical) is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing. We are no longer under the old law. Now we are circumcised spiritually with circumcision of the heart- which God performs (spiritually) during baptism. (Colossians chapter 2). It does not matter today whether or not you physically circumcise, but if you do, you must not do it for religious reasons- for the bible says if you obey any part of a law you must then obey all of it, and obeying the law of Moses and the law of Christ at the same time is committing spiritual adultery. (Romans 7:1-4).

What matters is the keeping of the commandments of God and the circumcision of the heart(Which comes first). Circumcision is not done away with and is part of the conversion process back into obedience for those who have lived as pagans or in disobedience. The way you commit spiritual adultery is by giving yourself over the the flesh and doctrines of demons which is what is contrary to God and he's law. If you are to understand Romans 7:1-4 you must know the law, as Paul is saying (I speak to those who know the law). It is talking about the house of Israel being free to marry again (in Christ) since He has died and then resurrected(If the husband be dead, you are free to marry again). Saying that obeying the law of God after receiving Christ is spiritual adultery is a very gross and ungodly doctrine. If I was the be the devils advocate that is exactly what I would want people to believe.

 

[heavenly_bound]

Yes. It is the Abrahamic covenant for all generations. We should walk and live as Jesus and all the patriarchs of the faith did, just as God has commanded. But the circumcision of the heart is what matters, which leads to obedience towards God.

only on one condition; if there is someone who would go back into history and undo the destruction of the temple, re -institute the animal sacrifice and all other rituals. then i a gentile, will convert to Judaism (not Christianity) and i will gladly over burnt offerings to the Lord. until that is done there is no way i will practice types and shadows!! sorry i don't mean to be mean but the truth must be told as it is.

 

[hornetguy]

What matters is the keeping of the commandments of God and the circumcision of the heart(Which comes first). Circumcision is not done away with and is part of the conversion process back into obedience for those who have lived as pagans or in disobedience. The way you commit spiritual adultery is by giving yourself over the the flesh and doctrines of demons which is what is contrary to God and he's law. If you are to understand Romans 7:1-4 you must know the law, as Paul is saying (I speak to those who know the law). It is talking about the house of Israels being free to marry again (in Christ) since He has died and then resurrected(If the husband be dead, you are free to marry again). Saying that obeying the law of God after receiving Christ is spiritual adultery is a very gross and ungodly doctrine. If I was the be the devils advocate that is exactly what I would want people to believe.

I don't believe I have ever seen a group of people so deliberately ignore spiritual truth AND scripture, in order to perpetuate their strangely twisted beliefs.

There is ZERO indication that Christians are still to follow Mosaic law. In fact, there are multiple scriptures that warn AGAINST trying to keep the old law.

This is not a cafeteria plan, you don't get to pick and choose what laws you will keep, and which you will not. If you choose to follow the old law, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are bound to keep ALL of the old laws... which saves NO ONE.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

Almost 2000 years of religious hypocrisy and doctrines of demons teaching that the law is done away with has created every excuse and twisting of the Word there is to come up with for disobedience. So much in fact that it often takes a total unlearning and reeducation of the bible in order just to be able to read and see the bible for what it is.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

I don't believe I have ever seen a group of people so deliberately ignore spiritual truth AND scripture, in order to perpetuate their strangely twisted beliefs.

There is ZERO indication that Christians are still to follow Mosaic law. In fact, there are multiple scriptures that warn AGAINST trying to keep the old law.

This is not a cafeteria plan, you don't get to pick and choose what laws you will keep, and which you will not. If you choose to follow the old law, you are not a follower of Jesus, and you are bound to keep ALL of the old laws... which saves NO ONE.

I am sorry to say but you have not understood the context of Paul in the NT regarding the law. For every person who are babes in the Word (especially the law and the prophets) that go out to seek out what Paul is saying on their own always falls into the trap that we don't need to obey God's law. Paul does not have this position, and he did not teach it. But to the person who don't know the law and the prophets very well it seems to say that every time. Which is not at all surprising because that is the logical conclusion of the matter if taken in an isolated state from the rest of the word of the bible.

 

[Grace777x70]

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4[/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This represents the modern day Judaizers who are trying to get Christians to go back to the Law for living instead of relying on Christ alone.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort..."law-keepers" can fall into this category.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[simplifiedtruth]

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4[/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This represents the modern day Judaizers who are trying to get Christians to go back to the Law for living instead of relying on Christ alone.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort..."law-keepers" can fall into this category.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Word of God is not man made religion. Those who have the appearance of good but the denies the power to effect real changes are those who confess and act like they are Christians but in works they deny him. They deny the power that is or is supposed to be in them to effect a real change in their lives for obedience toward God.

People who teach abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth, are teaching doctrines of men that would teach not to eat that which God has created and sanctified for us to eat by he's Word, which is the truth. Not the opposite of the truth of what God has created for us to eat which would be that which is unclean and unlawful for us to eat.

 

[Magenta]

No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

 

[posthuman]

outta context, i know.
but think about it: spiritually, by analogy, there's context here.

All the men who went out of the city gate agreed with Hamor and his son Shechem, and every male in the city was circumcised.
Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male.
(Genesis 34:24-25)​

fornicators. rapists. adulterers. idolaters.
believing by circumcising the flesh they would be accepted & justified.
for the purpose of their lusts.
deceived.
seeking to preserve their lives, they found death.

do you see what i see?