THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH
- Thread starter DP
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hi DP,
We note during the first advent of Jesus, His ministry was to Israel, according to Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6. The Church did not exist, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.
However, Jesus did give His disciples insight as to His preparing mansions for them in His Father's house in heaven, and that He would return for them and take them with Him, so they could be with Him. Where He was, in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Of course, we know that will not happen after Jesus second coming to the earth, because He will come to establish His 1,000 year reign on earth, according to Rev.20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13.
From the above, we see the Church has been caught up to the Lord Jesus, in the clouds of the sky, and taken to heaven with Him. We then further note, the marriage in heaven of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.9:7-8. Which is then followed by Jesus return in His second coming to earth, with His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [a sign of the righteous acts of the saints]. white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14.
What are your thoughts about that?
Quasar92
Last edited:
I agree with you on your excellent presentation of the history of the Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1800's Great Britain.
But I cannot agree with your interpretation of the origin of Dispensationalist's interpretation of the final "one week" (one seven) of Daniel 9:27.
Hippolytus (c.200 A.D.):
[FONT="][/FONT]"For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ has come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations." (The Interpretation of Hippolytus, bishop of Rome, of the Visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, Second Fragment, no.22).
I wonder if Elijah, instead of "Elias" was meant, because of Malachi 4:5.
But I cannot agree with your interpretation of the origin of Dispensationalist's interpretation of the final "one week" (one seven) of Daniel 9:27.
Hippolytus (c.200 A.D.):
[FONT="][/FONT]"For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ has come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations." (The Interpretation of Hippolytus, bishop of Rome, of the Visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, Second Fragment, no.22).
I wonder if Elijah, instead of "Elias" was meant, because of Malachi 4:5.
Hello Quasar92,
Looking at those verses you quoted in your 2nd paragraph...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - does not tell us the 'when' of those events, but only the 'who', 'what', 'where', and 'how'. And even the 'where' is only partially given, because Acts 1:11-12 with Zechariah 14 reveals the rest of the 'where', which to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem is where Jesus returns with His Church.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 - verse 4 goes with verse 3, and really the whole from 2 Thess.2:1 to 2:8 is how the flow of his Message is there. Verse 1 he declares the subject to be about the time of our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of the Church. In verses 3-4 he warns against deception by the coming Antichrist who must come first and there must be also a great falling away to happen first, all prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church. Paul includes a detail from the Book of Daniel about the Antichrist coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem, showing himself as God, and exalting himself over all that is even called God, or that is worshiped. That latter point is just as important as the ideas in verse 3 about the falling away and revealing of the Antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 - we aren't specifically told who is doing the withholding in v.6-7, but I think Daniel 10 points to it being the Archangel Michael withholding Satan in Heaven until the war of Rev.12:7. In verse 8, that is still following the order Paul set forth early in the chapter about the day of Christ's 2nd coming being when He gathers His Church. Verse 8 shows us that's when Jesus will appear and destroy the Antichrist, thus ending the great tribulation period.
A thorough reading of those Scriptures verifies that Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church occurs on the same day that He destroys the coming Antichrist. None of that suggests a rapture of the Church prior to that.
It's important to note that 1 Thess.4 shows our Lord Jesus 'descending' from Heaven to gather us. And He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him. So the "caught up" event is to Him along with the asleep (resurrected) saints. But it does NOT say they turn around in the clouds and go back to Heaven. Instead, Zechariah 14 and Acts 1:11-12 is the rest of it, showing He descends from Heaven to this earth, to the Mount of Olives.
So what God's Word is actually showing us, is that when Jesus gathers us up in the clouds, we don't go to Heaven, but to Jerusalem on earth. And there on earth, major changes will occur, the land being raised by a great earthquake, and living waters flowing with the River of the waters of life manifesting there for the Millennium. Since Jesus said He prepares those places ("many mansions") for us to live, I must assume He brings those with Him out of Heaven when He comes to the earth.
Looking at those verses you quoted in your 2nd paragraph...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - does not tell us the 'when' of those events, but only the 'who', 'what', 'where', and 'how'. And even the 'where' is only partially given, because Acts 1:11-12 with Zechariah 14 reveals the rest of the 'where', which to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem is where Jesus returns with His Church.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 - verse 4 goes with verse 3, and really the whole from 2 Thess.2:1 to 2:8 is how the flow of his Message is there. Verse 1 he declares the subject to be about the time of our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of the Church. In verses 3-4 he warns against deception by the coming Antichrist who must come first and there must be also a great falling away to happen first, all prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church. Paul includes a detail from the Book of Daniel about the Antichrist coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem, showing himself as God, and exalting himself over all that is even called God, or that is worshiped. That latter point is just as important as the ideas in verse 3 about the falling away and revealing of the Antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 - we aren't specifically told who is doing the withholding in v.6-7, but I think Daniel 10 points to it being the Archangel Michael withholding Satan in Heaven until the war of Rev.12:7. In verse 8, that is still following the order Paul set forth early in the chapter about the day of Christ's 2nd coming being when He gathers His Church. Verse 8 shows us that's when Jesus will appear and destroy the Antichrist, thus ending the great tribulation period.
A thorough reading of those Scriptures verifies that Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church occurs on the same day that He destroys the coming Antichrist. None of that suggests a rapture of the Church prior to that.
It's important to note that 1 Thess.4 shows our Lord Jesus 'descending' from Heaven to gather us. And He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him. So the "caught up" event is to Him along with the asleep (resurrected) saints. But it does NOT say they turn around in the clouds and go back to Heaven. Instead, Zechariah 14 and Acts 1:11-12 is the rest of it, showing He descends from Heaven to this earth, to the Mount of Olives.
So what God's Word is actually showing us, is that when Jesus gathers us up in the clouds, we don't go to Heaven, but to Jerusalem on earth. And there on earth, major changes will occur, the land being raised by a great earthquake, and living waters flowing with the River of the waters of life manifesting there for the Millennium. Since Jesus said He prepares those places ("many mansions") for us to live, I must assume He brings those with Him out of Heaven when He comes to the earth.
So let me get this straight? According to you the church has been caught up and were up there having a great old time celebrating the marriage feast with the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on the earth. and then Jesus returns in His second coming with His church. Is that right?
So what about 2 Thessalonians 1 where the Apostle Paul commends the Thessalonia church (vs4) for their perseverance and faith in the midst of all their persecutions and afflictions which they endured?" Paul further says, (5) "This is a plain indications of God's righteous judgment so that yo umay be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed yo are suffering."
Now for verses 6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (So quasar, when does God do the repaying?) The answer is verse 7. "and to give "REST/RELIEF" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
And if you notice at 2 Thessalonians 2 the Apostle Paul at vs1 explains further the "WHEN." How it will happen when the man of sin is revelaed and the apostasy takes place etc. Verse 8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
Please notice Paul is in perfect line with the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 when at vs3 the disciples ask Jesus, "And He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the discipleas came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE?" Like at 2 Thessalonians Jesus says at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore, when you see the abomanation of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).
Jumping down to Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS etc. Vs30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In short, the second coming is after the tribulation and there is no pre-rapture of the church eating and being merry while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. It jus does not make sense. Obviously I'm a post tribulationist. I also have one more very important question?
Look at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." According to this verse the Apostle John is expecting the antichrist so why would he write for the church to look for him if the church was not going to be around when he came?
IN HIM,
bluto
So what about 2 Thessalonians 1 where the Apostle Paul commends the Thessalonia church (vs4) for their perseverance and faith in the midst of all their persecutions and afflictions which they endured?" Paul further says, (5) "This is a plain indications of God's righteous judgment so that yo umay be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed yo are suffering."
Now for verses 6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (So quasar, when does God do the repaying?) The answer is verse 7. "and to give "REST/RELIEF" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
And if you notice at 2 Thessalonians 2 the Apostle Paul at vs1 explains further the "WHEN." How it will happen when the man of sin is revelaed and the apostasy takes place etc. Verse 8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
Please notice Paul is in perfect line with the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 when at vs3 the disciples ask Jesus, "And He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the discipleas came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE?" Like at 2 Thessalonians Jesus says at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore, when you see the abomanation of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).
Jumping down to Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS etc. Vs30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In short, the second coming is after the tribulation and there is no pre-rapture of the church eating and being merry while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. It jus does not make sense. Obviously I'm a post tribulationist. I also have one more very important question?
Look at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." According to this verse the Apostle John is expecting the antichrist so why would he write for the church to look for him if the church was not going to be around when he came?
IN HIM,
bluto
You guys do understand my main topic of this thread, right? it's about how the Pre-Tribulational Rapture teachers wrongly link our Lord's remarks about the time of Noah with a supposed gathering of the Church prior to the great tribulation, and... how they also wrongly link the idea of being 'taken' in Luke 17 to Christ gathering His Church.
Hi DP,
Please forgive me for being slow. As a 92 year old I am still completely independent, and everything that takes place in my life, I do, without any outside help. So it sometimes takes awhile for me to repond to posts addressed to me.
First of all, neither Margaret McDonald nor John Darby invented the pre-trib rapture of the Church. They revived it from being hidden by the RCC with their doctrine of Amillennialism for more than 1,600 years. Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul is where that teaching originated, as recorded in the following, which is Biblical fact, not theory:
The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums
The 70th and final week of Dan, 9:27, is exclusively addressed to Daniel's people, Israel. It has nothing at all to do with the Church. The 69th week, 483 years of the 490 total years, was fulfilled in 70 A.D. The final 7 years of it are yet to take place, and amplified by Jesus in His Olivet discourse, in Mt.24.4-31, together with the counterparts in Mk.13 and in Lk.32.
All three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 are the Antichrist. He stops the offerings and oblation in the middle of the week, i.e., at the 3,5 year mark of the 7 year tribulation, in the rebuilt third temple, Israel will build in Jerusalem, as seen in Dan.9:27; Mt.24:15, Mk.13:14 ; 2 Thess.2:4 and Rev.11:1-2.
Sorry for the delay. More later if time permits.
Quasar92
P
So let me get this straight? According to you the church has been caught up and were up there having a great old time celebrating the marriage feast with the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on the earth. and then Jesus returns in His second coming with His church. Is that right?
So what about 2 Thessalonians 1 where the Apostle Paul commends the Thessalonia church (vs4) for their perseverance and faith in the midst of all their persecutions and afflictions which they endured?" Paul further says, (5) "This is a plain indications of God's righteous judgment so that yo umay be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed yo are suffering."
Now for verses 6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (So quasar, when does God do the repaying?) The answer is verse 7. "and to give "REST/RELIEF" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
And if you notice at 2 Thessalonians 2 the Apostle Paul at vs1 explains further the "WHEN." How it will happen when the man of sin is revelaed and the apostasy takes place etc. Verse 8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
Please notice Paul is in perfect line with the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 when at vs3 the disciples ask Jesus, "And He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the discipleas came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE?" Like at 2 Thessalonians Jesus says at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore, when you see the abomanation of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).
Jumping down to Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS etc. Vs30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In short, the second coming is after the tribulation and there is no pre-rapture of the church eating and being merry while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. It jus does not make sense. Obviously I'm a post tribulationist. I also have one more very important question?
Look at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." According to this verse the Apostle John is expecting the antichrist so why would he write for the church to look for him if the church was not going to be around when he came?
IN HIM,
bluto
So what about 2 Thessalonians 1 where the Apostle Paul commends the Thessalonia church (vs4) for their perseverance and faith in the midst of all their persecutions and afflictions which they endured?" Paul further says, (5) "This is a plain indications of God's righteous judgment so that yo umay be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed yo are suffering."
Now for verses 6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (So quasar, when does God do the repaying?) The answer is verse 7. "and to give "REST/RELIEF" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
And if you notice at 2 Thessalonians 2 the Apostle Paul at vs1 explains further the "WHEN." How it will happen when the man of sin is revelaed and the apostasy takes place etc. Verse 8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."
Please notice Paul is in perfect line with the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 when at vs3 the disciples ask Jesus, "And He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the discipleas came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE?" Like at 2 Thessalonians Jesus says at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore, when you see the abomanation of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).
Jumping down to Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS etc. Vs30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In short, the second coming is after the tribulation and there is no pre-rapture of the church eating and being merry while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. It jus does not make sense. Obviously I'm a post tribulationist. I also have one more very important question?
Look at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." According to this verse the Apostle John is expecting the antichrist so why would he write for the church to look for him if the church was not going to be around when he came?
IN HIM,
bluto
MAT 25 is the unmistakable gathering of the bride to heaven.
(your theory would require mat 25 to be revised,since you guys made up the uturn back to earth at the rapture.)
There are zero postrib rapture verses.
The only one you guys think you have in mat 24 is NOT the rapture.
Angels are sent to gather,not Jesus,and they are gathered FROM HEAVEN.
FWIW, Margaret McDonald and her friend Mary Campbell got their ideas from Edward Irving's assistant, Alexander J. Scott. In Dec of 1829, Scott had been teaching Margaret's older brothers James and George, Irving's theology.
And Irving was quite a popular preacher in that part of Scotland.
I have a scan of a newspaper clipping from 1828 describing a preaching trip he made up there in May of that year.
The point is that I have only been able to trace the pre-trib rapture idea back to the Albury Prophesy Conferences in the late 1820's.
If anyone knows of any earlier source, I would be grateful for the references.
Thank you.
And Irving was quite a popular preacher in that part of Scotland.
I have a scan of a newspaper clipping from 1828 describing a preaching trip he made up there in May of that year.
The point is that I have only been able to trace the pre-trib rapture idea back to the Albury Prophesy Conferences in the late 1820's.
If anyone knows of any earlier source, I would be grateful for the references.
Thank you.
Ok then popeye since you agree with me that Jesus returns after the GT then tell me how you came to that conclusion? And let me be clear, I do not adhere to there being a so-called rapture. I adhere to what Hebrews 9:28 states, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a sonce time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." I.e the second coming.
Now, the issue around here is the "when" will Jesus return a second time and that is what I have been trying to explain using Biblical verses that all tie together. Furthermore, the second coming will happen in the twinkling of an eye. If you look at 1 Thess 4:13-17 those who are asleep/dead will not preceed thos who are alive. The second coming will be one continuous action of coming down and immediately those that are alive will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Remember, this all happens in a split second and that is how you have to read it.
And in line with 1 Thess 4:14 please read Jude vs14 as well as Zechariah 14:5. I do my homework and for many years I was a pre-trib rapture adherent but after further study and prayer with an open mind I changed my position. So again, I will ask you how you came to your conclusion that your a post-tribulationist? Oh yea, I am not advocating some theory I pulled out of the air.
IN HIM,
bluto
Now, the issue around here is the "when" will Jesus return a second time and that is what I have been trying to explain using Biblical verses that all tie together. Furthermore, the second coming will happen in the twinkling of an eye. If you look at 1 Thess 4:13-17 those who are asleep/dead will not preceed thos who are alive. The second coming will be one continuous action of coming down and immediately those that are alive will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Remember, this all happens in a split second and that is how you have to read it.
And in line with 1 Thess 4:14 please read Jude vs14 as well as Zechariah 14:5. I do my homework and for many years I was a pre-trib rapture adherent but after further study and prayer with an open mind I changed my position. So again, I will ask you how you came to your conclusion that your a post-tribulationist? Oh yea, I am not advocating some theory I pulled out of the air.
IN HIM,
bluto
P
Ok then popeye since you agree with me that Jesus returns after the GT then tell me how you came to that conclusion? And let me be clear, I do not adhere to there being a so-called rapture. I adhere to what Hebrews 9:28 states, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a sonce time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." I.e the second coming.
Now, the issue around here is the "when" will Jesus return a second time and that is what I have been trying to explain using Biblical verses that all tie together. Furthermore, the second coming will happen in the twinkling of an eye. If you look at 1 Thess 4:13-17 those who are asleep/dead will not preceed thos who are alive. The second coming will be one continuous action of coming down and immediately those that are alive will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Remember, this all happens in a split second and that is how you have to read it.
And in line with 1 Thess 4:14 please read Jude vs14 as well as Zechariah 14:5. I do my homework and for many years I was a pre-trib rapture adherent but after further study and prayer with an open mind I changed my position. So again, I will ask you how you came to your conclusion that your a post-tribulationist? Oh yea, I am not advocating some theory I pulled out of the air.
IN HIM,
bluto
Now, the issue around here is the "when" will Jesus return a second time and that is what I have been trying to explain using Biblical verses that all tie together. Furthermore, the second coming will happen in the twinkling of an eye. If you look at 1 Thess 4:13-17 those who are asleep/dead will not preceed thos who are alive. The second coming will be one continuous action of coming down and immediately those that are alive will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Remember, this all happens in a split second and that is how you have to read it.
And in line with 1 Thess 4:14 please read Jude vs14 as well as Zechariah 14:5. I do my homework and for many years I was a pre-trib rapture adherent but after further study and prayer with an open mind I changed my position. So again, I will ask you how you came to your conclusion that your a post-tribulationist? Oh yea, I am not advocating some theory I pulled out of the air.
IN HIM,
bluto
1 thes 4 is the rapture. "catching up"
The gathering of the bride. ( which is not the second coming)
Rev 14 has 3 gatherings DURING THE GT. Which would make your deal impossible. (you can't have the dead in Christ preceding those that are alive,when there are gatherings before when you place the rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ)
There are no postrib rapture verses. That is why I don't believe that doctrine.
Y
Why is there a nearly 2000 year pause between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, which is where I gather the "7 years of tribulation" comes from?
Why does "the church" get to escape the tribulation, when there isn't a biblical precedent for people escaping anything - Noah didn't escape the flood, he went through it. The Israelites in Egypt didn't escape the 10 plagues, but went through them, protected. Joseph didn't escape the famine in Egypt but had to go through it along with everyone else?
These are a couple questions I just can't seem to find satisfactory answers to. I'm honestly not trying to kick a hornet's nest, but these are a couple questions I simply don't understand when it comes to talking about the 2nd advent.
Why does "the church" get to escape the tribulation, when there isn't a biblical precedent for people escaping anything - Noah didn't escape the flood, he went through it. The Israelites in Egypt didn't escape the 10 plagues, but went through them, protected. Joseph didn't escape the famine in Egypt but had to go through it along with everyone else?
These are a couple questions I just can't seem to find satisfactory answers to. I'm honestly not trying to kick a hornet's nest, but these are a couple questions I simply don't understand when it comes to talking about the 2nd advent.
P
The Egypt dynamic doesn't serve either side. They were delivered into wilderness wondering,or punishment.
The Noah example,as with Jesus example of Lot,are both solid pretrib rapture dynamics.
The 10 virgins of mat 25 thought they were going to meet the groom right away. But he tarried so long they slept.
We still wait,at least the pretribbers do.
The Noah example,as with Jesus example of Lot,are both solid pretrib rapture dynamics.
The 10 virgins of mat 25 thought they were going to meet the groom right away. But he tarried so long they slept.
We still wait,at least the pretribbers do.