THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[popeye]

Come on popeye, do you really think your dealing with little kids around here? Your in the big leagues now and not dealing with little kids that don't know what their talking about. Please deal with the verses .


IN HIM,
bluto

No I think I am dealing with someone that is backpeddling over Rev 14.

You say the dead in Christ rise after that gathering?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Two things
Both wheat and tares are gathered together.
The tares are burned. That would be the LOF at the GWT judgement.
That is the only place where righteous and heathen are gathered together.

The other thing is it states emphatically that the AC kills every man woman and child refusing the mark.

Popeye,

There are survivors when Christ returns to the earth of both the righteous and the wicked. How could there be a separation of the goats and sheep when Christ returns to the earth to end the age if there wasn't any sheep? Please show me where scripturet states "emphatically" that the AC kills every man woman and child refusing the mark. Also, the following scripture takes place when the Lord returns at the end of the age. How could that take place if all of the righteous are killed?

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The scripture above is in reference to when Christ returns to end the age and establishes his millennial kingdom. Therefore, since all of the wicked will be killed, those nations mentioned above are the wheat, the sheep, who will repopulation the millennial period, along with the woman, Israel. To say that all of the GTS are killed during that last 3 1/2 years, then there would be no righteous mortals on the earth during the millennial period.

 

[Quasar92]

So let me get this straight? According to you the church has been caught up and were up there having a great old time celebrating the marriage feast with the Lamb while all hell is breaking loose on the earth. and then Jesus returns in His second coming with His church. Is that right?

As I previously posted, fully verified according to the Scriptures - not me. All I do is transcribe what they say: "However, Jesus did give His disciples insight as to His preparing mansions for them in His Father's house in heaven, and that He would return for them and take them with Him, so they could be with Him. Where He was, in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Of course, we know that will not happen after Jesus second coming to the earth, because He will come to establish His 1,000 year reign on earth, according to Rev.20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13. From the above, we see the Church has been caught up to the Lord Jesus, in the clouds of the sky, and taken to heaven with Him. We then further note, the marriage in heaven of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.9:7-8. Which is then followed by Jesus return in His second coming to earth, with His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [a sign of the righteous acts of the saints]. white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14."

So what about 2 Thessalonians 1 where the Apostle Paul commends the Thessalonia church (vs4) for their perseverance and faith in the midst of all their persecutions and afflictions which they endured?" Paul further says, (5) "This is a plain indications of God's righteous judgment so that yo umay be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed yo are suffering."

You are referring to 1 Thess, in the above. Verse 9 and 10 state the following:

9 "for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

Now for verses 6-7, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (So quasar, when does God do the repaying?) The answer is verse 7. "and to give "REST/RELIEF" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. vs8, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

The "repaying", i.e., or better known as the wrath of God, is found in Rev.6 through 10, the Great Tribulation, as described in Mt.24:4-31 and in the counter parts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21. See the following translation history of 2 Thess.2:1-8:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

And if you notice at 2 Thessalonians 2 the Apostle Paul at vs1 explains further the "WHEN." How it will happen when the man of sin is revelaed and the apostasy takes place etc. Verse 8, "And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming."

Previously addressed in the above paragraph. Review verses 7-8 below:​

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:11-21].
​

Please notice Paul is in perfect line with the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 when at vs3 the disciples ask Jesus, "And He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the discipleas came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, WHEN will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the END OF THE AGE?" Like at 2 Thessalonians Jesus says at Matthew 24:15, "Therefore, when you see the abomanation of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand).

​

Previously addressed above.​

Jumping down to Matthew 24:29, "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS etc. Vs30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In short, the second coming is after the tribulation and there is no pre-rapture of the church eating and being merry while all hell is breaking loose here on earth. It jus does not make sense. Obviously I'm a post tribulationist. I also have one more very important question?

​

Jsus ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel. The Church did not exist, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. 1st and 2nd Thess. as well as all the epistles in the Bible were addressed exclusively to the Church. In Mt.24>30-31, Jesus is returning to the earth WITH His Church, according to Rev.19:14, confirming Zech,14:4-5.​

Look at 1 John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." According to this verse the Apostle John is expecting the antichrist so why would he write for the church to look for him if the church was not going to be around when he came?

IN HIM,
bluto​

​

John, like the other disciples believed Jesus would return in their lifetime, as nearly everyone in every generation has believed as well. It hasn't taken place because all prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, such as the time of the Gentiles. In John's time, all non-believers were antichrist, as they are today. There is but one final world Antichrist, whom Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, according to Rev.13:1-2.​

Quasar92​

 

[bluto]

​

As I previously posted, fully verified according to the Scriptures - not me. All I do is transcribe what they say: "However, Jesus did give His disciples insight as to His preparing mansions for them in His Father's house in heaven, and that He would return for them and take them with Him, so they could be with Him. Where He was, in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. Of course, we know that will not happen after Jesus second coming to the earth, because He will come to establish His 1,000 year reign on earth, according to Rev.20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13. From the above, we see the Church has been caught up to the Lord Jesus, in the clouds of the sky, and taken to heaven with Him. We then further note, the marriage in heaven of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.9:7-8. Which is then followed by Jesus return in His second coming to earth, with His Church, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [a sign of the righteous acts of the saints]. white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14."

You are referring to 1 Thess, in the above. Verse 9 and 10 state the following:

9 "for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
The "repaying", i.e., or better known as the wrath of God, is found in Rev.6 through 10, the Great Tribulation, as described in Mt.24:4-31 and in the counter parts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21. See the following translation history of 2 Thess.2:1-8:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

​

Previously addressed in the above paragraph. Review verses 7-8 below:​

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:11-21].
​

​

Previously addressed above.​

​

Jsus ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel. The Church did not exist, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. 1st and 2nd Thess. as well as all the epistles in the Bible were addressed exclusively to the Church. In Mt.24>30-31, Jesus is returning to the earth WITH His Church, according to Rev.19:14, confirming Zech,14:4-5.​

​

John, like the other disciples believed Jesus would return in their lifetime, as nearly everyone in every generation has believed as well. It hasn't taken place because all prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, such as the time of the Gentiles. In John's time, all non-believers were antichrist, as they are today. There is but one final world Antichrist, whom Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, according to Rev.13:1-2.​

Quasar92​

Will return in about a week after our vacation.

IN HIM,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

My apology for the above post not being properly edited. I'm not used to having only five minutes to do so, My PC is very erratic and makes it difficult for me to respond to anyone that requires any length at all and have it turn out properly,


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

Popeye,

There are survivors when Christ returns to the earth of both the righteous and the wicked. How could there be a separation of the goats and sheep when Christ returns to the earth to end the age if there wasn't any sheep? Please show me where scripturet states "emphatically" that the AC kills every man woman and child refusing the mark. Also, the following scripture takes place when the Lord returns at the end of the age. How could that take place if all of the righteous are killed?

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The scripture above is in reference to when Christ returns to end the age and establishes his millennial kingdom. Therefore, since all of the wicked will be killed, those nations mentioned above are the wheat, the sheep, who will repopulation the millennial period, along with the woman, Israel. To say that all of the GTS are killed during that last 3 1/2 years, then there would be no righteous mortals on the earth during the millennial period.

At the end of the millineum Jesus gathers all things that offend,and all the dead,and the sheep.
For the GWT Judgement.

They have had 1000 years to "populate"

I would think,in that length of time,a huge amount of people seeing Jesus in person,would defect from darkness into light.
Remember,it is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT world. No more devil on the loose.

I hear this "who will populate" concept regularly,but to me,it is a minor deal.

The AC will rule through holding the keys to survival. Namely buying food and necessities. With the destruction of capitalism comes poverty. His kingdom will be junky and oppressive.

It is a literal fake of Christ's kingdom. But TOTAL control nonetheless.

Will not be hard at all to purge earth's population.(those refusing the mark)
Look what Hitler did ,or Stalin,with a small fraction of the AC's power.

The "repopulation dynamic" does not hinge on Christians outrunning the AC's sword,or mark.

None will survive.

Ok,what? 10 or 20 skeletal zombies crawling in some remote cave?

It says in rev ALL DIE that do not worship him or take the mark. It says NO ONE can buy OR SELL w/o the mark.
(on my phone and can't provide verses)

It even says power is given to him TO OVERCOME THE SAINTS.

IT IS the reverse of Noah's flood. All righteous die. The wicked are spared.

Just one more reason postrib rapture is complete nonsense.

It is written in rev All die refusing the mark

 

[popeye]

If praying for a pre-trib rapture would make it so, I would pray for it. I really would prefer to escape the time to come, if I live to see it.

But honestly, why should God deliver us out of the persecution, torture, and slaughter that is to come when He did not for the hundreds of millions (if not billions?) of godly believers who have suffered over the last 2,000 years? Why would He excuse us when so many hundreds of millions have already suffered and died?

This is not an argument. Merely a sad reflection.

(P.S. I am actively working on the NT verses I promised, but there is a lot to cover.)

Another postrib rapture red flag

(don't pray what Jesus said. Reason; what for?)

 

[popeye]

Hello popeye,

I would have to disagree here. If we look at the parable of Mt.13 regarding the wheat and the weeds, the angels "first" gather the wicked (one taken) and then the "wheat" as the parable states, is brought into his barn, which would demonstrate that not all of the saints are killed. Also, if that were true, then there would be no Gentiles left to repopulate the earth during the millennial period. While many of the GTS will be killed during that last 3 1/2 years, there will also be those who will make it through alive until Christ returns to end the age, else how could he settle the disputes of the nations when he returns?

They are harvested together. Then separated.

The wheat / rare example is the sheep/ goat example. They are there together,then separated.

Also,it says the graves and sea have up their dead,so that group is in the billions.

But there are no saints surviving the GT

 

[popeye]

Praise the Lord for his word. His awesome powerful word.

What a great God to leave us his book.

 

[Quasar92]

Will return in about a week after our vacation.

IN HIM,
bluto

No problem at all. I'll still be here, God willing. Have a great vacation.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello popeye,

At the end of the millineum Jesus gathers all things that offend, and all the dead,and the sheep.
For the GWT Judgement.

I'm surprised! Scripture makes it very clear that, it is at the end of the age when Jesus returns, this is when all things that offend are killed and the righteous go into the millennial period. Again, if you have all of the great tribulation saints (Gentiles) being killed, then that would be the end of all nations, leaving only Israel.

Scripture also makes it very clear that the separation of the sheep and the goats takes place when Christ returns to end the age, which is at the on-set of the thousand years, not the end of it. Also, you have not responded to the following:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above takes place after Christ returns to end the age. Notice that it states that "nation will not take up sword against nation." This would demonstrate that there will be people of different nations (Gentiles) who will populate the millennial period. The Lord will certainly not be settling disputes between the wicked.

It says in rev ALL DIE that do not worship him or take the mark. It says NO ONE can buy OR SELL w/o the mark.

Nowhere does it say in Revelation that "All" die. Here is the verse:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands."


In the scripture above John says "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded." "The souls" does not infer all, but just those who will been beheaded. The parable of the wheat and weeds makes it very clear that there will be the righteous (wheat) and the wicked (unrighteous) who will make it through alive until Christ returns to end the age. At that time the angels will be sent out and will "first" collect the weeds who will be cast down into Hades where the rich man is. At the end of the thousand years they will be resurrected out with the rest of those who have gone in there from the beginning of history. Christ's return to end age initiates the thousand years.


"The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

As you can see from the scripture above, the wheat (great tribulation saints) are enter into the millennial period. The end of the age is when Jesus returns immediately after the seven year period, sometime after the 7th bowl is poured out.

* Church still in process of being built

* Church removed

* Daniel's last seven years/wrath of God

* Christ returns to end the age (Sheep and goat judgment)

* Satan bound in the Abyss for a thousand years

* Thousand year reign of Christ

* At the end of the thousand years Satan released from the Abyss, Gog and Magog rebellion

* Great white throne judgment

* Eternity .................................................>

 

[popeye]

Will return in about a week after our vacation.

IN HIM,
bluto

Enjoy,be blessed,have a good time.

We all bless you bro,in Jesus name

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

No problem at all. I'll still be here, God willing. Have a great vacation.


Quasar92

Quasar, you might have missed my question. Do you have an opinion regarding who the 24 elders of Revelation are? If so, please share.

 

[Ahwatukee]

They are harvested together. Then separated.

Yes, exactly! The Lord returns which ends the age. The weeds/wicked are killed and the wheat goes into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies and repopulates the earth during millennial period, along with the woman, Israel.

Also,it says the graves and sea gave up their dead, so that group is in the billions.

Brother, you are confusing the end of the age with the end of the thousand years, which are a thousand years apart. The verse above that you posted about the sea giving up the dead, takes place after the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgment and not at the beginning of the thousand years, as can be seen from the following:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. "

We know that the above takes place at the end the thousand years and that because prior to this scripture it says, "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison."

 

[Quasar92]

Clear cookies

Reboot

But don't eat cookies
LOL

Neither of which address an erratic PG, but thanks for the suggestions. Both are done, many times over.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Quasar, you might have missed my question. Do you have an opinion regarding who the 24 elders of Revelation are? If so, please share.

Hello SteelToeKodiak,

If I may jump in. On the twelve gates of the new Jerusalem are written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel and on the foundations of the walls of the city are written the names of the twelve apostles. Twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church, ergo twenty four elders.

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

Hello SteelToeKodiak,

If I may jump in. On the twelve gates of the new Jerusalem are written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel and on the foundations of the walls of the city are written the names of the twelve apostles. Twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church, ergo twenty four elders.

Exactly my interpretation. That's amazing. I like to tell mid-post tribbers no worries they will be participating in the tribulation only it will be from Heaven as the elders are in prayer...When I realized who these 24 elders represents it seals the deal.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Exactly my interpretation. That's amazing. I like to tell mid-post tribbers no worries they will be participating in the tribulation only it will be from Heaven as the elders are in prayer...When I realized who these 24 elders represents it seals the deal.

Forgive me ahead of time for asking but, what would the names of the twelve tribes and the church being written on the gates and walls of the new Jerusalem have to do with validating a pre-trib gathering of the church? Just curious.

 

[popeye]

Hello popeye,..........




Nowhere does it say in Revelation that "All" die. ..............

Rev 13;7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.




12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Any questions?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Exactly my interpretation. That's amazing. I like to tell mid-post tribbers no worries they will be participating in the tribulation only it will be from Heaven as the elders are in prayer...When I realized who these 24 elders represents it seals the deal.

Never mind! I was thinking of the new Jerusalem and not the twenty four elders already being in heaven in Rev.4. You are correct, it does support a pre-trib gathering, else the elders would not be seen in heaven. It demonstrates that they are there before the 1st seal is opened.