THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[popeye]

Why is there a nearly 2000 year pause between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, which is where I gather the "7 years of tribulation" comes from?

Why does "the church" get to escape the tribulation, when there isn't a biblical precedent for people escaping anything - Noah didn't escape the flood, he went through it. The Israelites in Egypt didn't escape the 10 plagues, but went through them, protected. Joseph didn't escape the famine in Egypt but had to go through it along with everyone else?

These are a couple questions I just can't seem to find satisfactory answers to. I'm honestly not trying to kick a hornet's nest, but these are a couple questions I simply don't understand when it comes to talking about the 2nd advent.

Also,history records that the Christian in Jerusalem fled when Rome invaded in ad 70.
What was so special about them?
They remembered Jesus' words and did what he said.

Just like us pretribs that pray as instructed "...but pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world,and stand before the son of man"

You praying that?

Are any postrib rapture adherents praying that?

I do,quite regularly

 

[popeye]

My apology for not replying to your various responses to my posts. I have been experiencing tech problems with my PC. I will get back with you all when I can straighten it out.


Quasar92

Clear cookies

Reboot

But don't eat cookies
LOL

 

[EarnestQ]

Also,history records that the Christian in Jerusalem fled when Rome invaded in ad 70.
What was so special about them?
They remembered Jesus' words and did what he said.

Just like us pretribs that pray as instructed "...but pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world,and stand before the son of man"

You praying that?

Are any postrib rapture adherents praying that?

I do,quite regularly

If praying for a pre-trib rapture would make it so, I would pray for it. I really would prefer to escape the time to come, if I live to see it.

But honestly, why should God deliver us out of the persecution, torture, and slaughter that is to come when He did not for the hundreds of millions (if not billions?) of godly believers who have suffered over the last 2,000 years? Why would He excuse us when so many hundreds of millions have already suffered and died?

This is not an argument. Merely a sad reflection.

(P.S. I am actively working on the NT verses I promised, but there is a lot to cover.)

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

But honestly, why should God deliver us out of the persecution, torture, and slaughter that is to come when He did not for the hundreds of millions (if not billions?) of godly believers who have suffered over the last 2,000 years? Why would He

If you are entertaining the idea of the rapture, you would need to look at what else it is other than a deliverance of the church from wrath. The dead in Christ OT and NT saints would also be part of that reunion. It's not all about the "those who are alive and remain".

 

[popeye]

If praying for a pre-trib rapture would make it so, I would pray for it. I really would prefer to escape the time to come, if I live to see it.

But honestly, why should God deliver us out of the persecution, torture, and slaughter that is to come when He did not for the hundreds of millions (if not billions?) of godly believers who have suffered over the last 2,000 years? Why would He excuse us when so many hundreds of millions have already suffered and died?

This is not an argument. Merely a sad reflection.

(P.S. I am actively working on the NT verses I promised, but there is a lot to cover.)

Because of 3 things

1)the time of the gentiles completed

2) the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble beginning

3) the gathering of the bride

Nowhere in history are those 3 dynamics found in one place

 

[bluto]

1 thes 4 is the rapture. "catching up"

The gathering of the bride. ( which is not the second coming)

Rev 14 has 3 gatherings DURING THE GT. Which would make your deal impossible. (you can't have the dead in Christ preceding those that are alive,when there are gatherings before when you place the rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ)

There are no postrib rapture verses. That is why I don't believe that doctrine.

Well popeye your allowed to make any claim you want. The problem is you have to have prove of the claim. You just said the following, "Rev 14 has 3 gatherings DURING THE GT. Which would make your deal impossible. (you can't have the dead in Christ preceding those that are alive,when there are gatherings before when you place the rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ)"

Ok fine, then please kindly explain 1 Thessalonians 4:15, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the COMING of the Lord, SHALL NOT PRECEED THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP."This verse outright contradicts your statement, so now what are you going to do, your outright contradicting scripture.

Then to make matters worse for you please look at Revealtion 20:5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRS RESURRECTION." So where is the rapture of the church? Anybody can make claims like your doing, but you have to prove your claim which you cannot do. The following are your words, "There are no postrib rapture verses. That is why I don't believe that doctrine." Show me the proof?

IN HIM,
bluto

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

Also,history records that the Christian in Jerusalem fled when Rome invaded in ad 70.
What was so special about them?
They remembered Jesus' words and did what he said.

Just like us pretribs that pray as instructed "...but pray that you be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world,and stand before the son of man"

You praying that?

Are any postrib rapture adherents praying that?

I do,quite regularly

What then is the difference between going through tribulation and being saved from wrath? Aren't tribulations and the wrath of God two entirely different things that happen at different parts in the book of Revelation? I understand the church is not appointed to wrath, because it is explicitly stated as such, but I don't see it explicitly stated that we are to be spared tribulation.

To answer your other question - I don't pray about anything concerning the end of days. I'll accept what happens when it happens, whatever it may be. I hope pre-trib folks are correct, but I prepare my stores and equipment as if the post-trib people are correct. Like to cover my bases.

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

What is the purpose of the Tribulation? Are we tried and proven, and forgiven?
Rev.3:10:

[FONT=&quot]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



[/FONT]

 

[DP]

Hi DP,

Please forgive me for being slow. As a 92 year old I am still completely independent, and everything that takes place in my life, I do, without any outside help. So it sometimes takes awhile for me to repond to posts addressed to me.

First of all, neither Margaret McDonald nor John Darby invented the pre-trib rapture of the Church. They revived it from being hidden by the RCC with their doctrine of Amillennialism for more than 1,600 years. Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul is where that teaching originated, as recorded in the following, which is Biblical fact, not theory:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

With the advent of Alexandrians like Origen, Clement of Alexandria, and Dionysius, the influence of Neo-Platonism affected their belief to an Amill position. The 1st century Church held to a Premill position based on the teaching of our Lord Jesus and His disciples (per Papias who lived in the era of 70-155 A.D.). Amillennialism does not believe in the 1,000 years reign of our Lord Jesus that's to begin at His 2nd coming.

It must be remembered that the concept of Christ's reign with a temporary Messianic kingdom on earth is an idea that originated from the Old Testament prophets, and not from Christianity. The prophets understood that literally, so there's no reason to think the 1,000 years period of Revelation 20 to be non-literal.

As for the origin of a pre-tribulational rapture, several in the pre-trib movement have been caught trying to do historical revisionism in order to try and prove the doctrine originated at much earlier time than 1800's Great Britain. See this link...

Dave Macpherson

The 70th and final week of Dan, 9:27, is exclusively addressed to Daniel's people, Israel. It has nothing at all to do with the Church.

I must disagree with you. Jesus specifically gave His Book of Revelation to His Church through Apostle John, and it is hard-linked to the warning of the kingdom beast of ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads from the symbols given in the Book of Daniel (see Rev.13:1 AND VERSE 2.) The vision given Daniel of the false one coming to make war upon the saints is shown to be at the very end of this world. There is a plethora of Scripture evidence to prove the prophetic links between the Book of Daniel, Revelation, and Jesus' Olivet Discourse.

 

[DP]

What is the purpose of the Tribulation? Are we tried and proven, and forgiven?
Rev.3:10:

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Yes... we must be tried. Likewise at the end of the future 1,000 years reign by Christ, those who convert then must also be tried at the end of it, which is the reason for Satan being loosed one final time to go deceive the nations.

Though I believe all true believers on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross will be saved, I do not believe all will reign with Him. Remember the five foolish virgins of Matt.25, the incestuous sinner of 1 Cor.5, the unprofitable servant cast to the outer darkness, those who fall away of 2 Thess.2:3-4 when the Antichrist comes.

 

[popeye]

Well popeye your allowed to make any claim you want. The problem is you have to have prove of the claim. You just said the following, "Rev 14 has 3 gatherings DURING THE GT. Which would make your deal impossible. (you can't have the dead in Christ preceding those that are alive,when there are gatherings before when you place the rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ)"

Ok fine, then please kindly explain 1 Thessalonians 4:15, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the COMING of the Lord, SHALL NOT PRECEED THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP."This verse outright contradicts your statement, so now what are you going to do, your outright contradicting scripture.

Then to make matters worse for you please look at Revealtion 20:5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRS RESURRECTION." So where is the rapture of the church? Anybody can make claims like your doing, but you have to prove your claim which you cannot do. The following are your words, "There are no postrib rapture verses. That is why I don't believe that doctrine." Show me the proof?

IN HIM,
bluto

Like I said,rev 14 has a gathering before where you place the dead who rise before the living.

Your deal is impossible.

I guess you do not understand,that in your deal,you have the dead rising after the living.

Stop referring to clichés to explain away your dilemma

 

[popeye]

What then is the difference between going through tribulation and being saved from wrath? Aren't tribulations and the wrath of God two entirely different things that happen at different parts in the book of Revelation? I understand the church is not appointed to wrath, because it is explicitly stated as such, but I don't see it explicitly stated that we are to be spared tribulation.

To answer your other question - I don't pray about anything concerning the end of days. I'll accept what happens when it happens, whatever it may be. I hope pre-trib folks are correct, but I prepare my stores and equipment as if the post-trib people are correct. Like to cover my bases.

The AC kills everyone refusing the mark. There is no saints alive after the GT

 

[abcdef]

The AC kills everyone refusing the mark. There is no saints alive after the GT

Matt 24:22, "And except those days should be shortened,there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Apparently the "elect" are still around.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Yahweh_Is_Gracious,

Aren't tribulations and the wrath of God two entirely different things that happen at different parts in the book of Revelation?

For the most part, from Rev.4 onward is a detailed account of the wrath of God, which must take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The Lamb/Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, the 1st seal being the rider on the white horse, which is representing the antichrist, who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11-21.

I have posted this many times, but I'll post it again here. From Revelation chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, the word "Ekklesia" translated "Church" is used when referring to believers throughout those chapters. In contrast, we do not see the word "Hagios" translated "Saints" within those same chapters. Likewise from chapter 4 onward the word Ekklesia/Church is missing and we only see the word Hagios/saints. This is not a mistake, but is God's clue of letting us know that the Ekklesia/church is no longer on the earth during all that takes place from chapter 4 onward.


I personally believe that John being called up is prophetic of the church being caught up. Notice that John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." I believe that the voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" in 1 Thes.4:16.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

And so when John hears this voice that sounds like a trumpet saying come up here and the fact that we never see the word Ekklesia/church again after the end of chapter 3, the church here in chapter 4 is where the church is removed.

I Believe that Rev.1:19 is the key to understanding the order of Revelation, which is divided up as described in the following

What you have seen = everything that is written that John saw prior to being told to write, which would include his vision of the Lord's return to the earth and seeing him in his glorified state.

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which is also representing the entire church period, which is what is taking place now.

What must take place later = Everything that takes place after "what is now" i.e. everything that must take place after the church period. This is synonymous with the voice which says, "I will show you what must take place after this, i.e. after the church period.

From the time that the voice says, "come up here" the church is no longer on the earth, which is taking place prior to that first seal being opened. And rightly so because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the earth. Regarding this, scripture states that we are not appointed suffer the coming wrath and that Jesus rescues us from it (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9)

Truly all believers are exposed to tribulation, for Jesus said that we would have trial and tribulation in the world, which comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual realm. In opposition, the wrath of God will be his direct wrath poured out upon a Christ rejecting world, which believers Christ are not appointed to suffer.

That said, as believers in Christ we should trust in the Lord's promise to that Jesus rescued us from the coming wrath and that, according to his promise, he is coming again to take us back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he prepared for us there, that where He is, we may be also. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

 

[Ahwatukee]

The AC kills everyone refusing the mark. There is no saints alive after the GT

Hello popeye,

I would have to disagree here. If we look at the parable of Mt.13 regarding the wheat and the weeds, the angels "first" gather the wicked (one taken) and then the "wheat" as the parable states, is brought into his barn, which would demonstrate that not all of the saints are killed. Also, if that were true, then there would be no Gentiles left to repopulate the earth during the millennial period. While many of the GTS will be killed during that last 3 1/2 years, there will also be those who will make it through alive until Christ returns to end the age, else how could he settle the disputes of the nations when he returns?

 

[bluto]

Like I said,rev 14 has a gathering before where you place the dead who rise before the living.

Your deal is impossible.

I guess you do not understand,that in your deal,you have the dead rising after the living.

Stop referring to clichés to explain away your dilemma

Come on popeye, do you really think your dealing with little kids around here? Your in the big leagues now and not dealing with little kids that don't know what their talking about. Please deal with the verses I presented instead of just making blanket claims that I don't know what I'm talking about. How about we take this to the debate board if this site has one and then will see who knows what their talking about.

Telling me I'm presenting "cliches" is a cop out on your part. If you state a position you have to prove your position instead just saying what is so according to you opinion. And I already gave you specfically the verse that says the dead in Christ rise first at 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which could not be more clear. Now what are you going to do? Tell me the verse does not mean what it says?

Oh that's right, it's in impossible? I really think your pride is interfering with your judgement.

IN HIM,
bluto

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

Like I said,rev 14 has a gathering before where you place the dead who rise before the living.

Your deal is impossible.

I guess you do not understand,that in your deal,you have the dead rising after the living.

Stop referring to clichés to explain away your dilemma

Come on popeye, do you really think your dealing with little kids around here? Your in the big leagues now and not dealing with little kids that don't know what their talking about. Please deal with the verses I presented instead of just making blanket claims that I don't know what I'm talking about. How about we take this to the debate board if this site has one and then will see who knows what their talking about.

Telling me I'm presenting "cliches" is a cop out on your part. If you state a position you have to prove your position instead just saying what is so according to you opinion. And I already gave you specfically the verse that says the dead in Christ rise first at 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which could not be more clear. Now what are you going to do? Tell me the verse does not mean what it says?

Oh that's right, it's in impossible? I really think your pride is interfering with your judgement.

IN HIM,
bluto

Waaaait a minute. Popeye vs. Bluto? What's going on here? My tinfoil hat is lighting up.

 

[popeye]

Hello popeye,

I would have to disagree here. If we look at the parable of Mt.13 regarding the wheat and the weeds, the angels "first" gather the wicked (one taken) and then the "wheat" as the parable states, is brought into his barn, which would demonstrate that not all of the saints are killed. Also, if that were true, then there would be no Gentiles left to repopulate the earth during the millennial period. While many of the GTS will be killed during that last 3 1/2 years, there will also be those who will make it through alive until Christ returns to end the age, else how could he settle the disputes of the nations when he returns?

Two things
Both wheat and tares are gathered together.
The tares are burned. That would be the LOF at the GWT judgement.
That is the only place where righteous and heathen are gathered together.

The other thing is it states emphatically that the AC kills every man woman and child refusing the mark.

 

[popeye]

Waaaait a minute. Popeye vs. Bluto? What's going on here? My tinfoil hat is lighting up.

Popeye always wins.

LOL

 

[popeye]

Come on popeye, do you really think your dealing with little kids around here? Your in the big leagues now and not dealing with little kids that don't know what their talking about. Please deal with the verses I presented instead of just making blanket claims that I don't know what I'm talking about. How about we take this to the debate board if this site has one and then will see who knows what their talking about.

Telling me I'm presenting "cliches" is a cop out on your part. If you state a position you have to prove your position instead just saying what is so according to you opinion. And I already gave you specfically the verse that says the dead in Christ rise first at 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which could not be more clear. Now what are you going to do? Tell me the verse does not mean what it says?

Oh that's right, it's in impossible? I really think your pride is interfering with your judgement.

IN HIM,
bluto

I take it you have never factored in a gathering before where you place the rapture.

If that's not enough ,you have several other impossibilities in your path.

Your doctrine is in fact. Clichéd centered.

7th trump
First resurrection
Last trump
1830
Lahaye
McDonald
Second coming

Maybe you are not in need of those as doctrinal cornerstones,but 99% of postribs work out of those terms and they have become clichés instead of terms looked at in context.