Homosexuality isn't sin
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If you know what Proverbs 26:4-5 means then you will understand what I was doing. Even if it was deception, that was not my sole aim. I've posted numerous times on this site about my beliefs concerning the Torah, and I didn't choose to create a fictitious account under a different name in order to deceive someone. If they were deceived it was not because I was arguing devil's advocate; it was because they hadn't paid attention to my own confession of my beliefs or hadn't seen them yet. To be honest with you I was surprised that people actually thought I was serious. But I was hoping that they would continue taking me serious so that they would argue with their own reasoning. Verse 4 of that passage means that we are not to discuss the truth with a fool within the terms of his folly. Truth has no part in foolishness. Verse 5 means that we should discuss a fool's foolishness with a fool using his own line of reasoning. This shows him how foolishly he is thinking. Wow. Try to say that ten times fast. I believe it to be foolishness to say that we are no longer to obey the Torah, but that doesn't necessarily implicate someone believing this to be a fool. They may have been taught this way because their translation of the Scriptures and lack of cultural knowledge leads them to interpret that translation in a certain way. But believing so only opens the Scriptures up to contradictions. Whether or not they accept those contradictions as truth determines if they are a fool.
Are you implying that the commands listed in verse 21 and onward put a new law into effect and it is "one of the least of these" new laws that we shouldn't teach against? If so I'd like you to realize three things:
1. What he is teaching is not a new law. They not only conform to God's Torah (not murder, etc.) but also amplify its message with such commands as not hating your brother.
2. If we taught others to break one of the least of those following commands and broke them ourselves then I believe we would be going against the spirit of Torah.
3. This passage is not contradicting any part of the Torah but is actually affirming it. In other words everything ties in well rather than standing in opposition. Verses 17, 18 and 19 show us that he didn't abolish the Torah or Prophets, not the least stroke of a pen will disappear from the Law until heaven and earth pass away and that the commandments he's talking about that we should teach and obey not only refer to the Law as seen in verse 17 but also to its true observance within the parameters of its intent: love.
Also note that in verse 31 he was not confronting a decree of God from the Law/Torah that said divorce for any reason was okay. He was confronting people's twisting of the Torah. Christ was clearly upholding the intentions of the Torah as we see in Deuteronomy 22:29, 24:4 and ultimately 24:1. Deuteronomy 24:1 gives two stipulations that must be met in order for divorce to be allowed: 1.) the woman has to be displeasing to the man and 2.) the only way a woman may be found to be displeasing is if he "finds something indecent about her [...]"
Other translations translate this as "he has found some uncleanness in her [...]" This uncleanness or indecency is marital unfaithfulness. So, according to Deuteronomy 24:1, a man could only divorce his wife if two conditions were met: 1.) she was unfaithful to him and 2.) he found this to be displeasing. Note that divorce was not necessary even if she was unfaithful, but the man was fully within his rights to divorce her if she was found to be unfaithful. Culturally, the moment at which he found her to be unfaithful was after he had married her, gone away, built his house and made a living for himself and then came back to get his bride and participated in consummation of that marriage. It was at the consummation - after they had been married for a while but never together - that if he found her to be unfaithful in his absence he could divorce her then and there.
So what was happening in Jesus' time was that people had distorted the meaning of the Torah to mean that the man could divorce his wife for anything that he didn't like about her or that he called her unclean for or indecent for, etc. And this, like much of what Jesus was arguing against, was defeating the true intent/purpose/spirit of the Law with their interpretation of the letter of the Law. Jesus was simply setting them straight. And this is what he was doing with all of the Torah. He never contradicted it or abolished it.
1. What he is teaching is not a new law. They not only conform to God's Torah (not murder, etc.) but also amplify its message with such commands as not hating your brother.
2. If we taught others to break one of the least of those following commands and broke them ourselves then I believe we would be going against the spirit of Torah.
3. This passage is not contradicting any part of the Torah but is actually affirming it. In other words everything ties in well rather than standing in opposition. Verses 17, 18 and 19 show us that he didn't abolish the Torah or Prophets, not the least stroke of a pen will disappear from the Law until heaven and earth pass away and that the commandments he's talking about that we should teach and obey not only refer to the Law as seen in verse 17 but also to its true observance within the parameters of its intent: love.
Also note that in verse 31 he was not confronting a decree of God from the Law/Torah that said divorce for any reason was okay. He was confronting people's twisting of the Torah. Christ was clearly upholding the intentions of the Torah as we see in Deuteronomy 22:29, 24:4 and ultimately 24:1. Deuteronomy 24:1 gives two stipulations that must be met in order for divorce to be allowed: 1.) the woman has to be displeasing to the man and 2.) the only way a woman may be found to be displeasing is if he "finds something indecent about her [...]"
Other translations translate this as "he has found some uncleanness in her [...]" This uncleanness or indecency is marital unfaithfulness. So, according to Deuteronomy 24:1, a man could only divorce his wife if two conditions were met: 1.) she was unfaithful to him and 2.) he found this to be displeasing. Note that divorce was not necessary even if she was unfaithful, but the man was fully within his rights to divorce her if she was found to be unfaithful. Culturally, the moment at which he found her to be unfaithful was after he had married her, gone away, built his house and made a living for himself and then came back to get his bride and participated in consummation of that marriage. It was at the consummation - after they had been married for a while but never together - that if he found her to be unfaithful in his absence he could divorce her then and there.
So what was happening in Jesus' time was that people had distorted the meaning of the Torah to mean that the man could divorce his wife for anything that he didn't like about her or that he called her unclean for or indecent for, etc. And this, like much of what Jesus was arguing against, was defeating the true intent/purpose/spirit of the Law with their interpretation of the letter of the Law. Jesus was simply setting them straight. And this is what he was doing with all of the Torah. He never contradicted it or abolished it.
Could you define natural? Or why it is unnatural?
Because in Nature homosexuality is not uncommon.
For the past 200 years there have been observed and documented cases of homosexualities in over 1500 different species/kinds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals (Read the source before you go and say that Wikipedia is not realiable.)
K
I don't think people take the "unnatural" argument seriously when they make it. Give a person five minutes and she will probably do something else not in accordance with nature.
Regardless, nature is flawed - I don't think Christians should argue norms based on what they see in a cursed world aching for renewal. Those who try to build up an ethic on observations of nature come close to teaching something like the Tao or universal Dharma, which I believe is a completely different view of the natural world than what Christians are given in scripture. The universe is a creation, tilted off its axis, fit for burning.
In any case, if it has been revealed that a behavior is prohibited, we shouldn't have to argue for the prohibition. We either observe it or we don't. To even say we agree with the reasoning behind the prohibition is to presume we understand as well as the one who gave it. To me, this is as problematic as saying the prohibition is wrong. The error isn't primarily that we disagree, it's that we think we're in a place to make the decision. We think there's a decision to be made!
Theologians have, of course, done their best to blur the line between understanding and obedience, but if one really believes in God as God, there won't be a need for understanding before obedience. If one doesn't believe in God as God, no amount of understanding of God's reasons will lead to obedience.
Regardless, nature is flawed - I don't think Christians should argue norms based on what they see in a cursed world aching for renewal. Those who try to build up an ethic on observations of nature come close to teaching something like the Tao or universal Dharma, which I believe is a completely different view of the natural world than what Christians are given in scripture. The universe is a creation, tilted off its axis, fit for burning.
In any case, if it has been revealed that a behavior is prohibited, we shouldn't have to argue for the prohibition. We either observe it or we don't. To even say we agree with the reasoning behind the prohibition is to presume we understand as well as the one who gave it. To me, this is as problematic as saying the prohibition is wrong. The error isn't primarily that we disagree, it's that we think we're in a place to make the decision. We think there's a decision to be made!
Theologians have, of course, done their best to blur the line between understanding and obedience, but if one really believes in God as God, there won't be a need for understanding before obedience. If one doesn't believe in God as God, no amount of understanding of God's reasons will lead to obedience.
Hey, Elijah. I believe that homosexuality is sinful. I think some of my more current posts will put my beliefs into perspective. 
And if anyone ever wants to say I'm going to hell or that they themselves are going to hell they have to support their claims from the Scriptures. If you believe one way (e.g. Christ observes the Law so we don't have to) then you have to support your claims from the Scriptures rather than stating your opinion. I know it's your opinion, but I'd like to see Scriptural evidence for it. I'm not aiming this at you, Elijah. I don't know what you believe other than the above statement of yours, and I would agree that homosexual acts are an abomination.
And if anyone ever wants to say I'm going to hell or that they themselves are going to hell they have to support their claims from the Scriptures. If you believe one way (e.g. Christ observes the Law so we don't have to) then you have to support your claims from the Scriptures rather than stating your opinion. I know it's your opinion, but I'd like to see Scriptural evidence for it. I'm not aiming this at you, Elijah. I don't know what you believe other than the above statement of yours, and I would agree that homosexual acts are an abomination.
S
http://coalitionofconscience.askdrbrown.org/resources/2007_lecture_monday.html
"THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICE : SEPERATING FACT FROM FICTION" Dr. Michael L. Brown.
If you have some time to watch this, it is very educating and compassionate to both sides.
"THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICE : SEPERATING FACT FROM FICTION" Dr. Michael L. Brown.
If you have some time to watch this, it is very educating and compassionate to both sides.
so it's a sin yeah, but are we the ones who should tell other people what they can and cannot do? no! we let non-believers get married in church right? is that any better? just because what they're doing is "natural"?! murderers are allowed to marry! if a gay couple wants to marry, I'd say let them, but also let them know that what they're doing is wrong and why. HELP them instead of judging them! that's how we do it with other people in sin.
the rest is between them and god.
I know it's a bunch of crap, I just think it's so unfair to gay people. "you're gay? congratulations, you're not allowed to be in a relationship or get married or anything. you have to die a virgin. all this because you happened to be born this way." good luck being a christian.
the rest is between them and god.
I know it's a bunch of crap, I just think it's so unfair to gay people. "you're gay? congratulations, you're not allowed to be in a relationship or get married or anything. you have to die a virgin. all this because you happened to be born this way." good luck being a christian.
So if we are not under the law..and homosexuality is "no longer a problem". I guess it won't be a problem for me to lie, murder and fornicate...because I'm not under the law and so as I get it from your point of few...those aren't sins anymore...
Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
The fulfillment of Christ is not about that the whole law is just put away. Jesus Himself said: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (matthew 5)
The law is not put away, it's still in it's right. But because of the new covenant we are not under the curse of the law. But sin is still sin. Sin was measurable through looking at the law so....but the law itself could not fulfill what God wanted to put in us. We could not keep the law. Therefore God gave His son so we could be save and live through the Spirit. But the Spirit is one with God and God made the law...and the rules of the law bring life, just not eternal life.
So you have to understand the transformation of the purpose of the law. To say simply that nothing is a sin anymore is ridiculous because the new testament still talks about sin and how people get lost in it.
Don't look at me, I didn't say it. God did. But you know I do not believe we should point our fingers at homosexuals because they are that way. Everybody sins and nobody is perfect. I do think that when a homosexual man becomes a christian he should ask God about this question. But I don't think homosexuals are more sinners than other people. It's just more obvious, but we all have something to work on in our life. Even when it's the tiniest thing. But we need to follow Jesus step by step and strive to be just like Him.
So that's what I gotta say about it. Hopefully gave you some more vision on the subject. I don't wanna condemn anyone, so don't get me wrong. (I'm in fashion school and a lot of my fellow male students are homosexuals) But I don't wanna deny Gods word either. Just here to help! Ask God about the question.
All in the love of Christ,
recordingsound
Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
The fulfillment of Christ is not about that the whole law is just put away. Jesus Himself said: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (matthew 5)
The law is not put away, it's still in it's right. But because of the new covenant we are not under the curse of the law. But sin is still sin. Sin was measurable through looking at the law so....but the law itself could not fulfill what God wanted to put in us. We could not keep the law. Therefore God gave His son so we could be save and live through the Spirit. But the Spirit is one with God and God made the law...and the rules of the law bring life, just not eternal life.
So you have to understand the transformation of the purpose of the law. To say simply that nothing is a sin anymore is ridiculous because the new testament still talks about sin and how people get lost in it.
Don't look at me, I didn't say it. God did. But you know I do not believe we should point our fingers at homosexuals because they are that way. Everybody sins and nobody is perfect. I do think that when a homosexual man becomes a christian he should ask God about this question. But I don't think homosexuals are more sinners than other people. It's just more obvious, but we all have something to work on in our life. Even when it's the tiniest thing. But we need to follow Jesus step by step and strive to be just like Him.
So that's what I gotta say about it. Hopefully gave you some more vision on the subject. I don't wanna condemn anyone, so don't get me wrong. (I'm in fashion school and a lot of my fellow male students are homosexuals) But I don't wanna deny Gods word either. Just here to help! Ask God about the question.
All in the love of Christ,
recordingsound
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