Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[reneweddaybyday]

Hi Kohelet,

I have read your thought-provoking reply to Roger and appreciate your comments.

I hope you do not mind a minor clarification ...

So, when believers come together (1 Cor.14:26), if anyone speaks in a tongue, someone must interpret (v.27), otherwise the tongue-speaker must keep silent (v.29).

So Paul is not talking about the function of the gift in general, but only about the negative result of a particular abuse of the gift: its use without interpretation in the church.

In reading the above, some could conclude that tongues should not be spoken at all in the church if there is no interpreter. But Paul states in 1 Cor 14:28 that in the church, if there is no interpreter, the tongue-speaker may speak silently in tongues

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

[kohelet]

Hi Kohelet,

I have read your thought-provoking reply to Roger and appreciate your comments.

I hope you do not mind a minor clarification ...


In reading the above, some could conclude that tongues should not be spoken at all in the church if there is no interpreter. But Paul states in 1 Cor 14:28 that in the church, if there is no interpreter, the tongue-speaker may speak silently in tongues

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Yes, great point, reneweddaybyday. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[kohelet]

Hi garee,

Great to hear from you.

Hi Kohelet

My thoughts

They were human languages of different dialects or the speaker is simply speaking into the air, inspired of his own self coming from the imaginations of his own fleshy heart and mind...

This would be an excellent point if we could find it in Scripture. For one thing, there is no need to introduce the idea of dialects because the Greek γλῶσσα (glossa) doesn't mean dialect; it means either a language, a nation or the thing we have in our heads and speak and taste with. But you actually say "human languages of different dialects", so I'm not sure what you mean. We speak of dialects of languages, not the other way around. Anyway, let's just say "tongues" for the languages Paul is writing about, since that's the word he uses.

You say that these are either human languages or "the speaker is simply speaking into the air, inspired of his own self coming from the imaginations of his own fleshy heart and mind." But this isn't what we read in Scripture, quite the contrary. Paul says how he both prays and sings using this tongue, not understanding what he is saying, and also prays and sings with his mind, understanding what he is saying. And he says he's going to keep it up (14:14.15). What's more, he thanks God that he does so "more than all of [the believers at Corinth]" (v.18) and says not to forbid speaking in tongues (v.39)!

It is likely the reason he communicated as a two way communication more than others.( No self-edification, a form of pride.)

This is also an interesting couple of points and they'd be more so if we could find them in scripture. The two-way communication idea isn't only absent from the bible (unless I'm mistaken, and I may be!), it is also foreign to the context. As I mentioned just now, Paul tells us what this involves: praying to God.
You say that this is not self-edification, which is a form of pride. Garee, what happens when you spend time with the Lord? Your intimacy with him is increased and you become more like him, right? As we walk in the Spirit, spending time with him and being led by him, we display the fruit of the Spirit, don't we? This is the message of Galatians 5. Where's the pride here? As we are led by the Spirit we don't fulfil the lust of the flesh, so what it seems you're saying is the very opposite of what Paul says. But perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Still, you're quite clear when you say self-edification is a form of pride. Garee, it can't be. Jude tells us what the purpose of self-edification is: so that we keep ourselves in the love of God as we wait for the mercy of out Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life (Jude 21). Nothing fleshly there.

The interpretation is a revelation exclusively from God. Not from the speaker or the hearer. It was needed for the other to understand and vice versa, when the other spoke the interpretation as a revelation from heaven as given to Paul. The gifts were never one sided, both parties received the blessing .....when God was still bringing new revelations...

That's right, interpretation is certainly a spiritual gift. Agree with you completely.

No such thing as a “sign gift”. It would seem those two words appose each other. His gifts are spiritual as that not seen, the faith principle. Signs are for those who believe not(no faith)Prophecy for those who do believe, they walk by faith. Walking after one’s own experiences as the imaginations of a heart is walking by sight. There is nothing we can do outwardly that could confirm we have the Holy Spirit..

The term "sign gifts" is not one we find in the bible, right? I think it's used by people who believe the gifts mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians were superseded with the writing of the bible.

If believing God through His word our once source of faith is not enough then the skies the limit..

Absolutely right, garee! I want to believe that what you have written on the things I've commented on have the support of scripture, but I don't think they have. To this extent, I think what you call "My thoughts" are just that. I can't always find them in scripture.

Those who do seek after what they call sign gifts, I believe could benefit by taking it to heart that God is no longer bringing new revelations in any manner to include the interpretation of words persons have no understanding unless God from heaven did give it for.

Yes, I don't think people who seek the gifts call them sign gifts, but maybe I'm splitting hairs. By "new revelations" I suppose you mean new scripture, and if so, you're right. But no one claims that these revelations have the same weight as scripture. They haven't. Agabus had the gift of prophecy and the Lord used him to reveal to Paul what would happen to him in the places he was about to visit. This wasn't scripture though, of course, right? As for seeking the gifts, Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says, "Earnestly desire the spiritual gifts" (14:1). The Spirit wants us to do this until the perfect, the parousia, comes or we go to be with him, whichever happens first.

If they believe speaking in a unknown language shows they have the Holy Spirit they might as well drink poison of a serpent or be slain in the spirit falling back .Both signs that speak of rebellion, again the one purpose of signs.

If people believe speaking in an unknown tongue shows they have the Holy Spirit, they're probably justified in thinking that way. They shouldn't think though that others without the gift don't. Others have other gifts, also given by the Spirit, who they have indwelling them. I'm not sure that on this basis they should drink poison or hope snakes will bite them though.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[RickyZ]

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It is simply immature to suggest that only god understands and even the speaker does not understand and is somehow edified.
Roger

So scripture teaches immaturity. Spoken like a true milk drinker, and one who's god does not deserve capitalization. That one goes on the ever growing list: (http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10189-roger-vs-scripture.html)


1 Corinthians 14: 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
It is simply immature to suggest that only god understands and even the speaker does not understand and is somehow edified.
Roger

 

[notuptome]

So scripture teaches immaturity. Spoken like a true milk drinker, and one who's god does not deserve capitalization. That one goes on the ever growing list: (http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10189-roger-vs-scripture.html)


1 Corinthians 14: 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Originally Posted by notuptome :
It is simply immature to suggest that only god understands and even the speaker does not understand and is somehow edified.
Roger

So you do not understand this scripture.

If you do not understand what you are saying there is no edification. You cannot comprehend what you do not understand.

God understands all things and is not deceived by anything.

There is nothing significant about a typo on the capitol G in God. But you go ahead and hate me for it if you must.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

So you do not understand this scripture.

If you do not understand what you are saying there is no edification. You cannot comprehend what you do not understand.

God understands all things and is not deceived by anything.

There is nothing significant about a typo on the capitol G in God. But you go ahead and hate me for it if you must.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So, in a contest of your understanding VS God's word, you go with your understanding. Seems about right.

I don't think the small g was a typo.

 

[notuptome]

So, in a contest of your understanding VS God's word, you go with your understanding. Seems about right.

I don't think the small g was a typo.

Make all the accusations your heart desires.

You still come away without any increase in your understanding.

What kind of relationship do you have with God if you cannot understand what you are saying?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

So, in a contest of your understanding VS God's word, you go with your understanding. Seems about right.

I don't think the small g was a typo.

You are not amusing anyone with your tactics. You should discuss this like an adult, without the little snippy comments. Or are you trying to "win" a contest? Perhaps "most snarky comments" award?

 

[RickyZ]

Snippy I'll cop to. Sorry.

But Roger's a fraud and someone needs to either correct or expose him. And correction hasn't worked.

 

[CS1]

Diversities of tongues is the subject by Apostle Paul when he spoke of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12 thru 14. Notice the bold red phrases below...

1 Cor 12:7-11
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV


1 Cor 12:28-30
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
KJV

Paul is NOT speaking of some gibberish tongue idea there at all. He is speaking of the various known languages of the world.

When he is speaking about interpretation of tongues, he is speaking of those who can interpret different languages. This was especially manifested in the Christian west after Christian institutions of learning were established which served as teaching tools for those gifted by The Holy Spirit with a talent for learning languages. It was said that the British actor Peter Ustinov was fluent in twelve languages. Some have this gift, just as some have a gift for teaching or knowledge (being scholars, as the first universities in the Christian west were established by the Christian Church.)

This means in 1 Corinthians, Paul was not speaking of the cloven tongue of Pentecost, nor some gibberish tongue that no one can understand. He was talking about different languages of the world...

1 Cor 13:8
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

In that above verse, Paul is speaking of how love (charity) will never fail or end, but all those other things of this present world will have an end. The idea of tongues there once again is about known languages of the world. We can be certain he is not speaking of the cloven tongue of Pentecost, because per Zechariah in the OT, God with His future Kingdom is going to return to man the one tongue spoke by all nations prior to the tower of Babel event.

1 Cor 14:18
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
KJV

When Paul said that, he was not talking of any idea of his speaking an unknown tongue more often than anyone else. He was referring to known languages of the world. Paul spoke several languages, and that's the tongues he was referring to. So he was not... teaching about some unknown tongue there in 1 Corinthians.

Also... you can strike out that word "unknown" there in the KJV Bible, for it is not in the Greek NT manuscripts the KJV translators used. They ADDED that word "unknown" in the phrase "unknown tongue".

Unknown means unlearned . human reason interjected into the spittle working of the Holy Spirit will not be fruitful to the flesh (mind). the flesh cannot discern. 1cor 12, 13, 14 chapter s should be seen together in the light of other scriptures .

 

[RobbyEarl]

Tongues are biblical and the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There are many biblical examples of speaking in an unknown tongue. In fact praying tongues prays for Gods will, praying in your understanding means praying for your will.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

There are many brothers and sisters - and whole church's who do not believe in the gift of tongues, indeed it is difficult to believe in something if you have not experienced it for yourself, however to assume they are somehow fraud's and not true Christians is way off the mark. Our brother notuptome has a genuine love for God and because his beliefs vary slightly from some of us does not make him somehow less of a Christian than the next person. I do know this for sure - that his use of a small "g" was a typo.

 

[hornetguy]

Snippy I'll cop to. Sorry.

But Roger's a fraud and someone needs to either correct or expose him. And correction hasn't worked.

He obviously believes differently from you, as do a lot of people, but that doesn't make him a fraud, and even if he WAS a fraud, his own actions would expose him soon enough. And, the only correction that seems to work is the correction that the Spirit provides, either through personal study, or loving discussion with other believers.

I know it's difficult to remain neutral, emotionally, when discussing topics that we are passionate about, but I always try to remember it's not a salvation issue. In matters of maturity, or conscience, we have freedom, and should allow for that freedom in others.

I know quite a few people that feel just as passionately as you do that miraculous signs of the Spirit ceased with the apostles... And, they can get just as "worked up" about it as you do.. But those types of arguments almost NEVER convince anyone to change their viewpoint.

Calm discussion, over time, letting the Spirit work in the understanding of ALL believers is the only way for things to change for the better..

 

[notuptome]

Unknown means unlearned . human reason interjected into the spittle working of the Holy Spirit will not be fruitful to the flesh (mind). the flesh cannot discern. 1cor 12, 13, 14 chapter s should be seen together in the light of other scriptures .

Come on how do you expect folks to proof text if you insist on context. Historical context as well and context in the passage. You probably believe that dispensational context is important as well. Is there no end?

Who would have ever guessed that tongues are languages and unknown tongues are languages that one of the parties has not learned? Unknown tongues would have required some one learned in the language to interpret it into a common language that all might profit by hearing what was said. Is that what is called edification?

Snippy and sarcastic but meant in good fun.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RBA238]

Diversities of tongues is the subject by Apostle Paul when he spoke of tongues in 1 Corinthians 12 thru 14. Notice the bold red phrases below...

1 Cor 12:7-11
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV


1 Cor 12:28-30
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
KJV

Paul is NOT speaking of some gibberish tongue idea there at all. He is speaking of the various known languages of the world.

When he is speaking about interpretation of tongues, he is speaking of those who can interpret different languages. This was especially manifested in the Christian west after Christian institutions of learning were established which served as teaching tools for those gifted by The Holy Spirit with a talent for learning languages. It was said that the British actor Peter Ustinov was fluent in twelve languages. Some have this gift, just as some have a gift for teaching or knowledge (being scholars, as the first universities in the Christian west were established by the Christian Church.)

This means in 1 Corinthians, Paul was not speaking of the cloven tongue of Pentecost, nor some gibberish tongue that no one can understand. He was talking about different languages of the world...

1 Cor 13:8
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

In that above verse, Paul is speaking of how love (charity) will never fail or end, but all those other things of this present world will have an end. The idea of tongues there once again is about known languages of the world. We can be certain he is not speaking of the cloven tongue of Pentecost, because per Zechariah in the OT, God with His future Kingdom is going to return to man the one tongue spoke by all nations prior to the tower of Babel event.

1 Cor 14:18
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
KJV

When Paul said that, he was not talking of any idea of his speaking an unknown tongue more often than anyone else. He was referring to known languages of the world. Paul spoke several languages, and that's the tongues he was referring to. So he was not... teaching about some unknown tongue there in 1 Corinthians.

Also... you can strike out that word "unknown" there in the KJV Bible, for it is not in the Greek NT manuscripts the KJV translators used. They ADDED that word "unknown" in the phrase "unknown tongue".

"TONGUES" IS speaking about Speaking in a Language such as Spanish, Chinese; etc etc a person never knew but the Spirit of God comes on this person and then can speak tgat language fluently..."Unkown Tongues" means spoken in a Heavenly Language only God himself knows..

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Roger,
You posted this at #307:

You still come away without any increase in your understanding.

What kind of relationship do you have with God if you cannot understand what you are saying?

and you posted this at #314:

Who would have ever guessed that tongues are languages and unknown tongues are languages that one of the parties has not learned? Unknown tongues would have required some one learned in the language to interpret it into a common language that all might profit by hearing what was said. Is that what is called edification?

And in another thread [For those that seek to please the Lord - #34, you posted this:

There is always two standards. One is Gods standard and the other is mans standard. Gods standard is above my standard so I am compelled to accept it even if I do not completely understand it.

In your endeavor to understand the manifestation of the Spirit, please be "compelled to accept it even if [you] do not completely understand it".

And for your information, the manifestation of interpretation of tongues is energized by God in the same manner as the manifestation of kinds of tongues.

In other words, the Spirit gives the utterance in interpretation of tongues, just as the Spirit gives the utterance in tongues.

 

[notuptome]

"TONGUES" IS speaking about Speaking in a Language such as Spanish, Chinese; etc etc a person never knew but the Spirit of God comes on this person and then can speak tgat language fluently

Acceptable biblical position. Not entirely accurate but close.

"Unkown Tongues" means spoken in a Heavenly Language only God himself knows..

Patently false. Nothing in scripture to support it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

In your endeavor to understand the manifestation of the Spirit, please be "compelled to accept it even if [you] do not completely understand it".

And for your information, the manifestation of interpretation of tongues is energized by God in the same manner as the manifestation of kinds of tongues.

In other words, the Spirit gives the utterance in interpretation of tongues, just as the Spirit gives the utterance in tongues.

Rest assured that I understand it. I am endeavoring to allow you to see the truth and turn from your error.

New age spiritualism is not a moving of the Holy Spirit. God is not manipulated . God acts according to His righteousness and for His purpose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I am endeavoring to allow you to see the truth and turn from your error.

Or perhaps it is you who is in error in your [mis]understanding of the manifestation of the Spirit.

New age spiritualism is not a moving of the Holy Spirit

Right. The manifestation of the Spirit is the Holy Spirit working within the believer.

God is not manipulated . God acts according to His righteousness and for His purpose.

Yep. And at times (even in our day and time) God energizes the manifestation "according to His righteousness and for His purpose".

 

[Cee]

This idea that God is somehow being manipulated is crazy talk.

Was it not God who allowed both Moses and Abraham to "change" His mind?
Was it not God who COMMANDED us to heal the sick?
Was it not God who through His servant Paul commanded us to desire gifts?

We are NOT convincing Him, He is convincing us!

He doesn't need to be "manipulated" to love people or set them free. He is love. And where His Spirit is there IS freedom.
He doesn't need to be "manipulated" to save people. In this life or the next.

What He does INVITE US into is being a people of FAITH He is who He says He is. And He means what He says.
Why does He invite us? Because WE are His BODY. We CARRY His Spirit.
He needed a Man on Earth in Jesus to pay for our sins.
And He has given us the privilege of carrying His ministry of reconciliation.

Do YOU need to be manipulated to CARE for your kids?
And are YOU a better Father than He is?

When you say God will somehow allow a serpent to be given, when His children are asking for bread, you are saying He is a bad Father. And that's not the case at all.

How about YOU get some understanding on this Scripture here:

Luke 11:11What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

If people are ASKING for the Spirit of God do you think He is going to give them a scorpion? If you do, you're once again ignoring Scripture that proves you incorrect. Now get out of here with this "manipulating" God talk.