THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[DP]

For the people who believe that the rapture is a mid-trib rapture we know that 3 and a half years after the tribulation starts we will be raptured, also if it is a post-trib rapture we know that 7 years after the tribulation starts we will be raptured. It would not line up with scripture because we can then put a date on something we are told we cannot.

So Pre-trib is not trying to put a time on it by claiming Jesus raptures you out PRIOR to the tribulation??? You just contradicted yourself by those statements above, big time.

Also in 1 Thessalonians we are told in Chapter 5 verse 9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is that the ONLY verse in that 1 Thess.5 chapter??? Paul shows there it's that God's cup of wrath is not meant for us; he was not talking about Satan's wrath upon the Church during the tribulation.

There's more to Paul's Message in 1 Thess.5 than just throwing out one verse and then attaching a doctrine of man to it which doesn't belong.

The tribulation is a period of Gods wrath being poured out, the body of Christ is not appointed to wrath. We have been sealed with the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption because the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and Resurrected imputing us His righteousness.

NO. You are very wrong with that idea from the Pre-trib doctors! The tribulation is about the time of Satan's wrath upon Christ's Church, it is Not God's wrath.

The cup of God's wrath that Paul and Peter were speaking about occurs on the FINAL DAY of this world, and ENDS this world, it comes as a destruction from The Almighty upon the wicked. That's why Peter said in 2 Pet.3:10 this:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Tell me, how can that be the time of great tribulation since Peter says there the elements of man's works are burned up on that "day of the Lord"???

The rest of your words are just a regurgitation from the Pre-trib Rapture doctors, not you own words or understanding from God's Word, but just your puppet play they've trained you for, like a trained monkey. It's pathetic that you've allowed them to manipulate you so.

 

[popeye]

So Pre-trib is not trying to put a time on it by claiming Jesus raptures you out PRIOR to the tribulation??? You just contradicted yourself by those statements above, big time.




Is that the ONLY verse in that 1 Thess.5 chapter??? Paul shows there it's that God's cup of wrath is not meant for us; he was not talking about Satan's wrath upon the Church during the tribulation.

There's more to Paul's Message in 1 Thess.5 than just throwing out one verse and then attaching a doctrine of man to it which doesn't belong.




NO. You are very wrong with that idea from the Pre-trib doctors! The tribulation is about the time of Satan's wrath upon Christ's Church, it is Not God's wrath.

The cup of God's wrath that Paul and Peter were speaking about occurs on the FINAL DAY of this world, and ENDS this world, it comes as a destruction from The Almighty upon the wicked. That's why Peter said in 2 Pet.3:10 this:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Tell me, how can that be the time of great tribulation since Peter says there the elements of man's works are burned up on that "day of the Lord"???

The rest of your words are just a regurgitation from the Pre-trib Rapture doctors, not you own words or understanding from God's Word, but just your puppet play they've trained you for, like a trained monkey. It's pathetic that you've allowed them to manipulate you so.

Do you ever get off that put down scene?

You really hate people don't you.

Trained monkeys?

Dude,that mess rings of Islam. That is the hate speech of those radical imams from Satan.

That is what the devil,calls Gods people,the Jews.

Now you do the same. You call the body of Christ monkeys.

You sir,have aligned yourself with the devil.

You are a glorified troll

 

[popeye]

Although, apparently not for long... LOL

Thank you, nonetheless.

Half a page of small talk.

Why do you come into a thread,accuse folks of being off topic,and then carry on over user names?

POT MEET KETTLE

 

[popeye]

Unless you think the Book, Daniel, is completely in error, there is no "pre-trib" rapture.....

Sorry,Daniel does not make the pretrib verses go away.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.

The utter frustration and extra biblical sideshows of our opponents should be huge red flags, even to our opponents,ironically.

 

[bluto]

Good morning popeye, did you have your spinach for breakfast? First of all I am not a troll. Secondly, I do not know dp nor am I dp. Thirdly, I have never posted on this site under some other name. Fourthly, I completely understand why dp cannot stand you and unlike him I would never put anybody on ignore, do you know why?

It is to engage theological innovators like yourself and, by challenging your claims, get you to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. I thank you for assisting me!

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

 

[popeye]

No man knows the day or hour of our Lord Jesus' coming, that's about the idea of a date/time for the event of Christ's 2nd coming.

But the "day of the Lord" is an event He gave us describing what will occur on the final... day of this world. It was first given through His OT prophets, and it's unmistakable that it's the last day of this world:

Isa 13:6-13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
KJV


And IF you look more closely in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, you will find both Paul and Peter agreed with that "day of the Lord" coming upon the earth as a destruction on the last day of this world. Peter explained that emphatically in the 2 Pet.3:10 verse. In Paul's 1 Thess.5 example, he is talking about the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on that final day.

It's that final day, the "day of the Lord" that comes "as a thief in the night".

Pre-trib instead wrongly teaches that "day of the Lord" happens before the tribulation when it does not.

Yes,over and over,in postrib rapture world,phrases rule,and decide all outcomes.

Postrib rapture doctrine is built and founded on cliché.

 

[Quasar92]

Unless you think the Book, Daniel, is completely in error, there is no "pre-trib" rapture.....

There is nothing whatever the Book of Daniel that has anything at all to do with the Church. His book is addressed exclusively to his people, Israel,


Quasar

 

[popeye]

Good morning popeye, did you have your spinach for breakfast? First of all I am not a troll. Secondly, I do not know dp nor am I dp. Thirdly, I have never posted on this site under some other name. Fourthly, I completely understand why dp cannot stand you and unlike him I would never put anybody on ignore, do you know why?

It is to engage theological innovators like yourself and, by challenging your claims, get you to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. I thank you for assisting me!

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Trolls use your methods.

You can not make a sentence without put downs.

You must be a very bitter person.

Are you born again?

If so,you need your heart plowed by the Holy Spirit , and tell him you want to love people again like you did at conversion.

Even your enemies are to receive love.

 

[popeye]

Good morning popeye, did you have your spinach for breakfast? First of all I am not a troll. Secondly, I do not know dp nor am I dp. Thirdly, I have never posted on this site under some other name. Fourthly, I completely understand why dp cannot stand you and unlike him I would never put anybody on ignore, do you know why?

It is to engage theological innovators like yourself and, by challenging your claims, get you to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties to see for themselves. I thank you for assisting me!

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Theological?

You know the definition of that word?

You use Saul Alensky tactics. Communist tactics. One of his rules is to go personal,attack character IN ORDER TO MAKE THE OPPONENT BACKPEDAL OFF TOPIC.

That realm describes your MO with striking detail

 

[popeye]

BTW,both bluto and DP USE THE EXACT SAME TACTICS from Saul Alenskys Rules for Radicals manual.

"go off topic in personal attacks,to throw off your opponent"

Coincidence?

Dp founded this thread in DIRECT OPPOSITION to my thread "Noah story supports the pretrib rapture "

I am totally " under his skin" so to speak. So much so,I am on ignore. He can not debate me.

Enter "bluto"

And guess where?

You got it. Right here.And use the same name calling and tactics.

And gee,iguess it all is just a coincidence.

They ,dp and bluto, are connected,or one and the same.

Comical.

About all that can be said

 

[redeemed2014]

So Pre-trib is not trying to put a time on it by claiming Jesus raptures you out PRIOR to the tribulation??? You just contradicted yourself by those statements above, big time.




Is that the ONLY verse in that 1 Thess.5 chapter??? Paul shows there it's that God's cup of wrath is not meant for us; he was not talking about Satan's wrath upon the Church during the tribulation.

There's more to Paul's Message in 1 Thess.5 than just throwing out one verse and then attaching a doctrine of man to it which doesn't belong.




NO. You are very wrong with that idea from the Pre-trib doctors! The tribulation is about the time of Satan's wrath upon Christ's Church, it is Not God's wrath.

The cup of God's wrath that Paul and Peter were speaking about occurs on the FINAL DAY of this world, and ENDS this world, it comes as a destruction from The Almighty upon the wicked. That's why Peter said in 2 Pet.3:10 this:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Tell me, how can that be the time of great tribulation since Peter says there the elements of man's works are burned up on that "day of the Lord"???

The rest of your words are just a regurgitation from the Pre-trib Rapture doctors, not you own words or understanding from God's Word, but just your puppet play they've trained you for, like a trained monkey. It's pathetic that you've allowed them to manipulate you so.

These are basics of why I believe a pre-trib rapture. Other than that have a blessed day, as I will no longer engage you in vain conversation. As a trained monkey I do not have the time I must practice riding motorcycles while smoking for your entertainment.

God bless,

 

[bluto]

Really, would Jesus approved of this demeanor? BTW the Angel of The Lord is Jesus. Jesus loves you just as he loves the drunk under the bridge or the dude beating his wife while smoking crack.

What are some of your people, sissys? How about the demeanor of Jesus at Matthew 23:27-36? "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of ded men's bones and all uncleaness. vs28, Even so you too outwardly appear righteoust to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness, vs29, Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! vs33, You serpenst, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?

Hear that "earl?" This is love incarnate talking and your telling me about my demeaner? Good grief, grow up and get into the battle instead of the childish statement of me being drunk under a bridge smoking crack and beating my wife. Btw boy, tell me why you think the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ and not just an angel? In fact, never mind, I will start a thread on this issue.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[GaryA]

Why do you come into a thread,accuse folks of being off topic,and then carry on over user names?

"Hey, somebody needed to break the monotony..."

popeye - sometimes, it seems that you only care for one thing - to "one-up" anyone you can when you can...

So -- go ahead and "one-up" this post ( I know you will not be able to resist. ) -- and I will leave the thread - and leave all of you to your bickering - and wait for the thread to be locked - which I predict will be very soon --- unless it fast turns into a friendly and productive discussion...

"Have a nice day!"

 

[Yahweh_is_gracious]

One-upmanship on CC? Say it ain't so!

Surely nobody here would try to one-up anyone else or try to play "I'm a better Christian and a better Bible scholar than you". No...I can't fathom that anyone here would try to do anything so childish.

LOL

 

[TMS]

The pre-trib rapture (PTR) is a fundamental doctrine for some people. Many other doctrines and beliefs hang on this doctrine. If this doctrine was proven wrong the whole belief system would collapse and fall apart. Most people that believe in the PTR will not see any error in their doctrine because they would need to change so much of their understanding and so many other doctrines that hang on this belief and change is hard.
If this doctrine is so fundamental to the way so many other beliefs are interpreted, you need to know if it is correct.

My research tells me that the PTR doctrines were invented to hold up the false teachings that have no founding without it.

 

[TMS]

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching, and the term suits the subject well. Tell me if I’m wrong but are these the basic teachings. That Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. Is this the general teaching?
People debate the details of when and how long between (3 ½ years, 7 years, 1000 years etc.), and there’s debate about where people go or where the tribulation falls, while others say all will be rescued.
So many interpretations but when you hear the “Rapture Theory” it usually means the pre-tribulation rapture.
It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830. (This will be debated) I want to post the origins of this theory next.

 

[TMS]

Those who feel the origin of the Pre tribulation rapture teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century. The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that).

The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur.
Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organised churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832.
His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”
What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speak*ing in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena.
On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity. (was this from God?)
The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. Language studies and the doctrine of “dispensationalism” were teachings that John brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularise it. Scofield and others took it over, but Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.
The extraordinary and strange events of the early Pentecostal movement so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases.
Test all things... Is this From God or man.

Read 1 kings 13 all,, verse 18 in particular.

 

[DP]

These are basics of why I believe a pre-trib rapture. Other than that have a blessed day, as I will no longer engage you in vain conversation. As a trained monkey I do not have the time I must practice riding motorcycles while smoking for your entertainment.

God bless,

A trained monkey does not think for theirself, and when someone simply throws out points from a doctrine devised by men not written in God's Word, then that is a sign of a trained monkey. That's why you cannot follow a Bible chapter's subject line upon line, but have to pull out one verse here and one verse there and then attach men's doctrines to it.

 

[DP]

The pre-trib rapture (PTR) is a fundamental doctrine for some people. Many other doctrines and beliefs hang on this doctrine. If this doctrine was proven wrong the whole belief system would collapse and fall apart. Most people that believe in the PTR will not see any error in their doctrine because they would need to change so much of their understanding and so many other doctrines that hang on this belief and change is hard.
If this doctrine is so fundamental to the way so many other beliefs are interpreted, you need to know if it is correct.

My research tells me that the PTR doctrines were invented to hold up the false teachings that have no founding without it.

Because the Pre-trib Rapture theory is built upon sand, and not the Rock of God's Word, that's why it's going to be like a wall built with untempered mortor (mortor that won't harden). As soon as the hard rains hit it, it will come tumbling down. That is one of the way God's explains about the 'fly away' doctrine is going to fall per His rebuke of Ezekiel 13.

 

[DP]

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching, and the term suits the subject well. Tell me if I’m wrong but are these the basic teachings. That Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. Is this the general teaching?
People debate the details of when and how long between (3 ½ years, 7 years, 1000 years etc.), and there’s debate about where people go or where the tribulation falls, while others say all will be rescued.
So many interpretations but when you hear the “Rapture Theory” it usually means the pre-tribulation rapture.
It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830. (This will be debated) I want to post the origins of this theory next.

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctors keep changing bits of their theory.

Originally, John Darby in 1830's Britain said Christ coming to rapture the Church before the trib would be a secret coming. Others who then heard the new doctrine began to call it the Secret Rapture. But today, they don't like that word 'secret' used.

Another one of their modified ideas was that only the faithful who are raptured by Jesus prior to the trib would see Him coming in the clouds, the wicked would not see Him. With the modern view, they try to allow the wicked some substance of understanding a rapture happened. That's why LaHaye's Left-Behind fabrications have those left behind wondering.

The real truth, per Rev.1, is that ALL eyes will see Jesus coming in the clouds when He returns to gather His Church. But still, they claim that event is for His return with the Church after the trib, thus creating a 3rd coming that is not written in God's Word.

At present, some here on the doctrine are confused about their theory of what Jesus does with them after the rapture prior to the trib. Some of them say they rule in Heaven with Jesus after the trib, while others of them believe like Darby did with their returning with Jesus back to this earth to reign on earth. So even that shows how the doctrine is in a state of flux, which is an obvious sign of a doctrine of men, and not an unchanging doctrine from God's Word.