So what about the fourth commandment?

[disciplemike]

Do you realize when Sha-ul wrote that epistle to young Timothy, none of the "New Testament" was written yet.
Listen to what he is saying. He is talking about the "Old Testament". This after the resurrection of the Messiah.
Listen, listen, listen.


All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God,
and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV, MBM)




The "Old Testament" is profitable!
... for doctrine [proverbs 4.2 "for I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my Torah]
... for reproof [proof, conviction found in Scripture]
... for correction [yes, unfortunately, "believers" need correction at times]
... for instruction in righteousness [we can't just say my righteousness is Messiah's]
that the man of God may be perfect, [now there is a goal!]
throughly furnished unto all good works! [The Old Testament is NEEDED, it furnishes us with info we NEED]

 

[Grace777x70]

hello copy king.
just a note. you may want to write this down.
in the context of Sha-ul writing to Timothy about "instructions in righteousness",
Timothy did not have 1 Corinthians or Romans. The only Scripture Timothy had, and knew from the time he was a child, was the "Old Testament".
get over it.

Paul used the revelation that Jesus Himself gave of what happened at the cross and resurrection to speak forth the truth of Christ in us - the hope of glory and that Christ Himself is our righteousness. Paul saw this in the Old Testament and here is an example.


We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ.

Isaiah 45:24-25 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

Here is one more from the OT - Isaiah 54: 17 of the Lord telling what the believer would have because of what Christ did in Isaiah 53 when He died on the cross to take away our sin and make us righteous in Him.

Isaiah 54:17

[SUP]17 [/SUP] "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," declares the LORD.

Folks we have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

Ephesians 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

 

[beta]

The 10 commandments was a covenant between Moses and his generation and God after they came out of Egypt starting in Chapter 5 Deuteronomy 5:2-3 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Moses speaks here that the Ten Commandments was for them of that time that was lead out of Egypt. But I encourage everyone to read the whole chapter though. Now going to Hebrews 9 verses 1-5.

Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Verse 4 "tables of the covenant" That was the 10 commandments . To show this true lets go back to Deuteronomy Chapter 9 this addresses that that are the same "tables" are the ones in Hebrews 9:4 flip to Deuteronomy 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the "tables of the covenant" which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water: and Deuteronomy 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the "tables of the covenant." Showing in both the new and old testament the 10 commandments are "the tables of the covenant." And the Ten Commandments was between Moses and His generation I encourage you to read all of those chapters in full. Now Jeremiah and Hebrews proves once again the Ten Commandments was for Moses and his generation.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

Hebrews 8:8-9 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Am I saying to forsake the OT no II Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: All scripture is educational and valuable but it also has its place and time as well. The purpose of the Old Testament was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors the golden two. If we obey those two commands faithfully we will be upholding all that God requires of us. That is all we can do. Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. I Corinthians Chapter 13:1-3 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. If you don't have not love you are nothing and if someone doesn't know love they don't know God. I John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Do everything because you love Lord Jesus. He has been there and done that and conquered all of that too!

The 10 Commandments were spoken by GOD first....not Moses ! which makes them a GOD-given spiritual law in their own right, eternal, holy just and good, not lumped in with 'commandments contained in ordinances/works that finished with Moses.

 

[disciplemike]

We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ.

This does not agree with Sha-ul.
Sha-ul told young Timothy that the Scriptures, the "Old Testament" is needed for instruction in righteousness.
I guess I will have to believe that over your theological tap dancing.

 

[wvbeliever]

beta did you even read chapter 5 in Deuteronomy? It's Moses who is addressing Israel as in God done gave them to Moses. Verse 1 Deuteronomy 5:1-3

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


beta as in second hand God first then Moses to that generation. Read the Chapter in whole.

 

[beta]

How can any Christian not be able to abide by the 10 Commandments? I can see your argument for not being able to follow the 613 Laws, but it should be pretty easy for any Christian to not have other Gods, murder, steal, ect.

Now it's true that most Christians in modern times would have a hard time following the 4th Commandment as that would mean forsaking the traditions of men like Jesus said to do. Could that be the straight and narrow path He mentioned?

It could well be ! because it is the one Command people fight against tooth and nail. God wants us to give up what we love most....no arguments, no backchat !

 

[beta]

beta did you even read chapter 5 in Deuteronomy? It's Moses who is addressing Israel as in God done gave them to Moses. Verse 1 Deuteronomy 5:1-3

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


beta as in second hand God first then Moses to that generation. Read the Chapter in whole.

Friend I know Deut 5, like the back of my hand for the past 37 years.

 

[Officermayo]

beta did you even read chapter 5 in Deuteronomy? It's Moses who is addressing Israel as in God done gave them to Moses. Verse 1 Deuteronomy 5:1-3

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


beta as in second hand God first then Moses to that generation. Read the Chapter in whole.

So does this mean that all quotes of OT scripture in the NT negate them?

 

[Dan_473]

I believe I have already explained the way I see it...but here goes.
In the absence of scripture I assume you mean Jas 2v10....but again you might mean 'all the laws God ever gave ?
As I see it...Jesus has abolished the enmity, the commandments contained in ordinances Eph 2v10, meaning all the 'works or law of Moses' which is 'apart from the 10 Commandments which are spiritual and GOD-given'. Therefore in the NT the 'whole law are the 10 Commandments for us to do.
Why would James refer to keeping/continue to do the OT law that had served it's purpose ? The seed had been planted, the roots established and were producing new growth in the new Christian (at least that is what should have happened...except the devil also planted his seed at the same time). So really we are only talking about the Commandments which are spiritual and eternal.
Did Jesus fulfil the law ? Yes !
Did Jesus destroy the law ? No !
We need to look at something here best explained in a 'natural process'.
The OT law can be seen as the roots/seed of a plant....in it is contained the 'whole' plant. Part of it remains in the ground and part of it grows above the ground = OT - NT, both essential for as long as the plant is to last. You can 'cut off' the plant/flower above the ground and it will only last for a short time, but if you 'care for the root it will produce again. Rom 11 (v18). Even though not seen but neither is it dead or destroyed.
The devil gets you to believe you can be 'cut off from the root and still bloom/last for ever !

If I understand you right, in your view 'the whole law' for us is the ten commandments.

how then can the ten commandments be fulfilled in one word? why is it ten when it could be just one?

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ.

This does not agree with Sha-ul.

Sha-ul told young Timothy that the Scriptures, the "Old Testament" is needed for instruction in righteousness.
I guess I will have to believe that over your theological tap dancing.

It looks like this "Sha-ul" guy doesn't really know the Paul that wrote about the New Covenant yet because Paul wrote all these scriptures talking about the righteousness that is found only in Christ.

This is why your religion is anti-Christ - you continually reject the work of Christ in a believer's life and try to get believers to desert Christ for the Law. ( Gal.1:6 ) This is a Christ-focus forum.

Here are what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.

The understanding of the new creation in Christ created in righteousness and holiness and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.

This does not come by trying to go back to living by the Law. It comes from the hearing of Christ which brings true biblical faith. Romans 10:17

Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

 

[Dan_473]

How can any Christian not be able to abide by the 10 Commandments? I can see your argument for not being able to follow the 613 Laws, but it should be pretty easy for any Christian to not have other Gods, murder, steal, ect.

Now it's true that most Christians in modern times would have a hard time following the 4th Commandment as that would mean forsaking the traditions of men like Jesus said to do. Could that be the straight and narrow path He mentioned?

well... are you willing to give up using electricity on the sabbath so that you're not part of the system that requires power plant workers to break the sabbath?

give up driving for similar reasons?

 

[Officermayo]

well... are you willing to give up using electricity on the sabbath so that you're not part of the system that requires power plant workers to break the sabbath?

give up driving for similar reasons?

Sure, as soon as you show me where God said in the 4th Commandment not to do those things. Not the traditions of men, but GOD himself SAYING it.

 

[Dan_473]

Sure, as soon as you show me where God said in the 4th Commandment not to do those things. Not the traditions of men, but GOD himself SAYING it.

I believe it says "do no work". working at a power plant, driving a tow-truck, I believe those would be work.

 

[disciplemike]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ.

It is true, only the Messiah's righteousness is good enough for justification, ("being saved"),
but as believers, we have to learn and practice righteousness. Shaul (is his name) tells us that we can learn that, instructions in righteousness, from the "Old Testament".

So apparently, once a person becomes "saved", practicing righteousness in our daily lives is still important.

and no, you can't just do what you want and say, "yeah but Christ lives in me".

 

[Officermayo]

I believe it says "do no work". working at a power plant, driving a tow-truck, I believe those would be work.

I guess the Priests were in trouble then, eh?

 

[FreeNChrist]

It is true, only the Messiah's righteousness is good enough for justification, ("being saved"),
but as believers, we have to learn and practice righteousness. Shaul (is his name) tells us that we can learn that, instructions in righteousness, from the "Old Testament".

So apparently, once a person becomes "saved", practicing righteousness in our daily lives is still important.

and no, you can't just do what you want and say, "yeah but Christ lives in me".

Man, that is just really, really messed up. You denigrate Christs righteousness even as you exalt yourself and your own self-righteousness.

Yeah, Christ lives in us. Who the heck lives in you?

 

[FreeNChrist]

"Watch out for those dogs, those people who do evil, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, though I could have confidence in my own effort if anyone could. Indeed, if others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more!

I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ and become one with Him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with Himself depends on faith." (Philippians 3:2-9)

 

[Officermayo]

It is true, only the Messiah's righteousness is good enough for justification, ("being saved"),
but as believers, we have to learn and practice righteousness. Shaul (is his name) tells us that we can learn that, instructions in righteousness, from the "Old Testament".

So apparently, once a person becomes "saved", practicing righteousness in our daily lives is still important.
and no, you can't just do what you want and say, "yeah but Christ lives in me".

Kind of like a recruit having to follow all the rules in basic training required of a Soldier, but once they graduate and become full fledged members of the Army, they no longer have to follow those rules.

 

[Dan_473]

I guess the Priests were in trouble then, eh?

if the priests were commanded to do something on the sabbath, then I believe that's not considered breaking it.

but working at a power plant?

 

[Officermayo]

if the priests were commanded to do something on the sabbath, then I believe that's not considered breaking it.

but working at a power plant?

So if a nurse is keeping the Sabbath holy and sees someone in a car wreck in front of their house, they shouldn't render aide according to your interpretation?