FALLING FROM GRACE; WHAT IT MEANS AND HOW YOU FALL

[eternally-gratefull]

My re-interpretation is an interesting phrase.

I am not re-interpreting anything, I am taking the traditional meaning that which
theologians, believers have taken for thousands of years.

It is hyper-grace that is attempting to re-interpret everything with words like
de-brainwashing, redefining words throughout the faith to mean their particular
view. But that is always an old trick. It is those of faith and walking with the Lord
who are deluded, but the new believers have the inside track, though these new
believers for decades believed something different.

But history is always rewritten to justify where people are at. And rather than accept
another points of view, it is you are lost and we are found.

The jews in Jesus day took the literal teaching which was taught for thousands of years.
Jesus told them they were wrong, they crucified him for it.

Please do not think just because some people beleive as you do, and have done so for centuries that it must be fact..

If that was true, the roman catholic church would be the true church. And not anyone else

 

[valiant]

Grace777 - The truth is you understand the words you use in a different way
to me. So your twisting is my understanding. Maybe this is above your understanding
but this is the consequence of only being able to see things in one framework.

The conversations we have will always be stilted because you fail to appreciate I do
not accept your frame of reference or reinterpretation of everything.

So being "told" is not how you talk about a subject. You want only one interpretation,
because in your world their is only religion "evil" and hyper grace "good".

I understand that is your belief but too much in life says this is merely a set of beliefs
that justifies your struggles and failure as acceptable. There is nothing is what Jesus
and the apostles had to say that this was their expectation.

'I am not right, I just want to point to what I see as the truth, but am happy if you can share something to make my life richer '

now where did I read that. can it have been from you? Sounds hypocritical to me.

 

[PeterJens]

What is a sign of missing the mark?

When the mark becomes irrelevant and sin becomes inevitable.
The apostles talked about walking in the Spirit, walking with the fruit of the Spirit,
walking in purity, holiness and sincerity.

Now double minded people say are but that is just a standard which is impossible
so we are more deeply indebted to Christ for saving us.

This sounds like a heroin addict saying they have found the cure to the addiction,
but trying to justify why they have the cure while still taking the drug.

They just cannot bring themselves to admit either they do not understand the
addiction and what is the drug and what is not, or they are deluded and will
never be free. I suppose if you are forever addicted and the hope of a cure
is the best you can hope for, then why not.

The problem is if there really is a cure, a real way of walking with Christ that
changes and transforms them, but they have not yet found it, only by admiting
the truth and then asking God to show them is there a real hope.

None of us know our states only God. And God says if you are free, the power
of God lives within you. Are you prepared to actually be honest and ask yourself
if freedom can be a reality, or has your hidden sin so captivated your soul, all
hope has really been lost, the hurt and disappointment runs too deep.

But I know this is a lie of the enemy and nothing runs too deep. But know that
even Peter came close to loosing it all, so truth and reality are hard and you have
to loose your life to gain it. But I wonder you churched in wool types, have you
ever really faced yourself, emotionally, your contradictions, your warts and all?

I do not know, but the fruit of your argument suggests you have not.

 

[PeterJens]

'I am not right, I just want to point to what I see as the truth, but am happy if you can share something to make my life richer '

now where did I read that. can it have been from you? Sounds hypocritical to me.

Do you understand the point I am making? I am not right, I can only reflect the truth, the
truth stands by itself. I can behave righteously, but I am only righteous when God credits
it to me. Jesus talked about this reality, that truth about oneself is unreliable, because ofcourse
you agree with yourself, else why would you believe what you believe.

Now there was a philospher in his 70's came to accept that God did exist.
But the language of argument and how you propose what is or is not truth is complicated.

I know many here find such language intimidating but actually it is just a tool or method to
distinguish error from truth.

Now the reason I do not tell people but I share, because discovery is personal.
Jesus took this approach, which is why he used parables. You have to unwrap them for
yourself, because in changing the truth unwraps you.

A blind man is blind, so showing them something is useless, it will not make them see.
Only those willing to see will find, and those willing to hear will understand.

As people we only understand things one at a time, so break the train, and we can
miss the meaning. It is why Jesus described the path as narrow, and difficult.
But when you see a version of faith that is all encompassing you know this is something
else.

 

[ladylynn]

And you have been told many times Peter that you always for some unknown reason "twist" what is said to make it something else which is the one of the reasons a lot of us try to just ignore your posts.

These "conclusions" are from your own construct in your mind. I have said it from the beginning I first met you on CC. You take something someone says - you "construct" what you think they are saying and then make a whole new meaning out of it. Then this thought seizes your mind until "it becomes real" to you in your own thinking.


Some of us have told you the same thing over 50x times and yet you continue to say we are saying something else.

Some things you just can't understand like our sins are forgiven in Christ because of His blood but that's ok to agree to disagree too but you go and make it a completely different thing and accuse people that believe in forgiveness of sins that they want to sin all the time and live in sin all the time which is complete nonsense.

And it is ok to disagree with some things as well but you just take it to the next step and think it's ok to call people names and insult them in your posts. This is not walking in righteousness and purity as you are fond of saying but maybe you will repent and change your mind about how you treat others.

You have called believers in grace every name that is possible from being satanic, to liars, to lovers of sin, demonic. This is the reason I and others try to limit my interaction with you to as little as possible.

You are right Grace777., I have tried to be engaging but it turns out to be a mess of confusion and accusation not only from this guy but the others here who give way to accusations. Listening is an art and many don't have it in them yet. Either they are not practiced in it or they just won't allow others to have another viewpoint. My mother was very much like this when I was a teenager. She was convinced I had all these popular friends at school and that I was going to cut school to be with them

I was such a loner since losing my best friend who went to another Jr. High school. And Suzy and I would never smoke cigarettes. Since sue left, my school life was was a sad lonely place. When I would go out to the store with my older brother, mom was convinced my cigarette smoking hip hugging jean friends were just waiting for me.

I hated smoking since my parents were always smoking in the house and it stunk. But my mother would have gone to her grave positive sure that I was interested in smoking and had rebellious friends to do it with.

That is what it is like coming to CC and being accused of this nonsense. A person could swing on the chandeliers or jump off the Empire State Building., or cut off their arm to try and prove they were not lying or trying to get a way with something and still , just like my mom these negative Neds and Nels will only believe what they think is being said since they do not want to listen.

So what can ya do??

 

[eph610]

So what can ya do??

the ignore feature is quite handy......

 

[ladylynn]

the ignore feature is quite handy......

I've only tried the ignore feature once for a while and it was weird. But you are right eph610., it's sort of like ..out of sight out of mind.

 

[eph610]

I've only tried the ignore feature once for a while and it was weird. But you are right eph610., it's sort of like ..out of sight out of mind.

kind of like shaking the dust of the feet

 

[UnderGrace]

So what can ya do??

Yes, I hear ya........we can pray..... sometimes that is all that can be done!!

You are right Grace777., I have tried to be engaging but it turns out to be a mess of confusion and accusation not only from this guy but the others here who give way to accusations. Listening is an art and many don't have it in them yet. Either they are not practiced in it or they just won't allow others to have another viewpoint. My mother was very much like this when I was a teenager. She was convinced I had all these popular friends at school and that I was going to cut school to be with them

I was such a loner since losing my best friend who went to another Jr. High school. And Suzy and I would never smoke cigarettes. Since sue left, my school life was was a sad lonely place. When I would go out to the store with my older brother, mom was convinced my cigarette smoking hip hugging jean friends were just waiting for me.

I hated smoking since my parents were always smoking in the house and it stunk. But my mother would have gone to her grave positive sure that I was interested in smoking and had rebellious friends to do it with.

That is what it is like coming to CC and being accused of this nonsense. A person could swing on the chandeliers or jump off the Empire State Building., or cut off their arm to try and prove they were not lying or trying to get a way with something and still , just like my mom these negative Neds and Nels will only believe what they think is being said since they do not want to listen.

So what can ya do??

 

[PeterJens]

Now I wonder how Grace777 can invent things I have not said.

1. Ofcourse we are forgiven through Christ sacrifice on the cross.
2. I have never said people want to sin all the time.

The two points are very simple

1. Future sin is not forgiven, because it should never happen
2. People claim an inability to walk righteously, for real

Now that is all it is. The rest is a smoke screen, exaguration, slander,
talking as if hatred or malice is there, being anti-christ etc.

To have to go this far over these doctrines shows how different a faith
has been created. Now I have said these things lots of times, but always
the same accusations and distortions. So many scriptures taken out of
context and other completely ignored. I think this demonstrates the
extreme nature of this group and their desire to ridicule and change normal
faith into something different. It always makes me wonder at the motivation
but then ex-legalists are like ex-smokers, they hate what they once were
and cannot tolerate the merest wiff of their past addiction. Quite poetic in
some way but certainly not heavenly wisdom, or even ranking in the world
of evil spirits, because to put it mildly, it is too close to the truth for them
but too far to be sane.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

As the Holy Spirit convicts us of righteousness, He will also convict us of sin. This is why we do repent when we sin.
If we understand what is light, we will also understand what darkness is as well.
They are not mutually exclusive.

As God instructs us as to what is pleasing to Him, we also know therefore what is displeasing to God.
God will show us where we do not line up in His sight and give us the unction to follow what is pleasing to Him. This is why born again believers are exhorted to "find out what is pleasing to the Lord." This isn't always immediate, but as we who are in different parts of our walk find out what is the underlying truth, we are asked to allow God to change us. As we are born of light, so walk in that light.

 

[PeterJens]

After this length of time it is obvious we hold our positions fairly clearly.

It has helped me understand why I follow Jesus and who I am. So for that
I thank you. In a strange irony, when you meet the Lord you will find out the
truth about your heart, or maybe not. My fear is most will just have a sense
of confusion and fore boding, or Jesus said a nashing to teeth.

For me the simple test of how well you know Jesus is does the sermon on the
mount speak to your soul with life or condemnation.

If the sermon on the mount is the place you built your house on, and it stood
firm through the trials of life, then it will be life.

If you did not obey, the storm came and your house fell flat, then it will not
be life.

Now I know the meaning of having my house stand firm, and I pray and hope
you find this to. God bless you, and the may the words of Christ dwell in you
richly, Amen

 

[PeterJens]

Sin

Think of the big sins
Murder, theft, rape, adultery, lying, slander, dishonouring ones parents.

Are people saying they are not aware of this and how wrong it is?
Is it like it does not matter, there are no standards or sense of what righteousness
actually is?

I noticed the apostles continually create lists of sin or walking in the flesh actually
means to demonstrate how serious it is, and how obvious. They do this because so
many become pedantic legalists, condemning everyone, and then denying their is actual
freedom. It is a kind of slavery, or what I have called hyper legalism.

So Elijah sinned by fearing Jezebel would kill him. Rather than being a sin, this was actually
good advice. King David many times had to flee from Saul, and God guided him to ways
in which he might do this. But the need to make things into sin, is like an addiction to coverup
real problems and sin, and appease an over active conscience.

But because of this I am now a dispossed believer, a legalist, a hypocrite and a pharisee.
And likewise every other faithful believer. So in their desire to be hyper true, they disown
the very people God loves and has saved. Rather ironic that, for such a "spiritual" group, who
are the only "non-religious" religious group in the world. That does make me laugh, the irony
of being religious while denying it...

 

[Grace777x70]

I've only tried the ignore feature once for a while and it was weird. But you are right eph610., it's sort of like ..out of sight out of mind.

Romans 16:17-18 works great too if there is no repentance. It's ok to just agree to disagree too but I would severely limit interaction until things change. We can pray for them and bless them and move on and just ignore all the junk being thrown around.

 

[Talishi]

If we are sinless, We do not need grace, So a sinner can't fall from grace.

John defines sin as the transgression of law in 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If we are not under law but under grace, then we cannot transgress the law, and so we cannot sin. Correct me if I'm mistaken somewhere.

 

[know1]

Galatians 5v4 talks about people who put their faith and trust in the foundation of the law and not the grace found in Christ...in that manner "falling from grace" refers to building your foundation on something that is NOT grace.

If you have to get offensive and start misrepresenting what I say, we can cease communicating now. I merely stated what I understand grace to be and expressed a question because it doesn't line up with what you seem to define as grace. It has nothing to do with church doctrine or whether I believe the Bible or not. It mainly has to do with our differing understanding of what grace is.

That was not me trying to get offensive with you, it was just a little dry humor, with a touch of misrepresentation, but only with the, not understanding, part.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


My point is that, at one time the people that Paul was writing to started out believing they were justified by faith in Christ, then sometime after, were taught to obey the law for their justification. In that sense, Christ's work on the cross had become of no effect to them and at tht time, they fell from grace.
That's just how I read it.
My understanding is, we have God's grace and favor BECAUSE of the Spirit that is in us. And we received that Spirit of grace and truth BECAUSE we received Christ in our hearts.
The bible says that Jesus was full of grace and truth. Joh 1:14
Each is a Spirit from and of Him.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



Without the Spirit of grace, we would not have God's grace.
Without the Spirit of truth, we would not be able to receive the truth of God's word. Therefore we would not have truth.
Without the spirit of faith, we would not be able to have faith for salvation.
These Spirits proceed from God and enter our hearts, and from there they produce fruit in us.
Each spirit is what their name states. Even as a spirit of fear produces fear in a person.
Or as the spirit of a prophet give the prophet the ability to prophesy.
In the same sense that the ladies who had a spirit of divination or familiar spirit gave them the ability to divine, as the bible puts it.
Grace is not only the unmerited favor of God, it is a living Spirit of God within His children.
That is how I see and understand grace.

 

[know1]

John defines sin as the transgression of law in 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If we are not under law but under grace, then we cannot transgress the law, and so we cannot sin. Correct me if I'm mistaken somewhere.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


We can indeed and do sin.

1Co 11:31 For [but] if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

 

[PeterJens]

So much time is spent on one word sin and so little on the real life, love.

Our goal is to love, which means we become sinless. And love is expressed most
clearly through Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

The goal is has never been to be sinless but to be in relationship with Jesus and God.

The language is like saying being married is about not upsetting your partner rather
than loving and caring for them. One way to not upset people is simply not interact,
but that is neither loving or caring.

It is a little odd for me to have discussions with people who claim to know God so much
better yet do not have the right language or express things remotely sane or sensible.

God never took us out of the world, but left us here to be witnesses to real life and love
in a world of blindness to the realities of what it means to be alive with God.

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] we have access into the grace wherein we stand through faith and only by way of faith. (Romans 5:2)
If we put our trust into the hands and power of sin, then we are of the devil; its that simple: and if we are of God we do not put our trust into the hands of sin, because the seed of God remains in us, and we cannot put our trust in sin anymore, because we are born of God. (1 John 3:8-9)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sin

Think of the big sins
Murder, theft, rape, adultery, lying, slander, dishonouring ones parents.

Are people saying they are not aware of this and how wrong it is?
Is it like it does not matter, there are no standards or sense of what righteousness
actually is?

I noticed the apostles continually create lists of sin or walking in the flesh actually
means to demonstrate how serious it is, and how obvious. They do this because so
many become pedantic legalists, condemning everyone, and then denying their is actual
freedom. It is a kind of slavery, or what I have called hyper legalism.

So Elijah sinned by fearing Jezebel would kill him. Rather than being a sin, this was actually
good advice. King David many times had to flee from Saul, and God guided him to ways
in which he might do this. But the need to make things into sin, is like an addiction to coverup
real problems and sin, and appease an over active conscience.

But because of this I am now a dispossed believer, a legalist, a hypocrite and a pharisee.
And likewise every other faithful believer. So in their desire to be hyper true, they disown
the very people God loves and has saved. Rather ironic that, for such a "spiritual" group, who
are the only "non-religious" religious group in the world. That does make me laugh, the irony
of being religious while denying it...

once again.

A legalist is a person who claims eternal life is based on ones actions, or how well they obey God, or how "less" they sin.

if this fits you (which it does from what everyone here sees) then please do not judge others for judging what is true.

If it is not you (we could be wrong) then you have judged falsely.

The issue with sin is it is easy to name th ebig ones, as you said, and not do them, Everyone knows they are wrong.

It is hard to think that if one knows to do something and does not do it, to him it is sin (evil in the eyes of a holy, just and righteous God) That those times when we chose to serve self and not others That to him that is sin (evil in the eyes of a holy, just and righteous God)

it is called watering down the law.

Now they get mad at us people who claim we are foolish to think we can stop sin and live up to Gods perfect standard (out of humility) then when confronted, they must admit, They still sin also.

Talk about hypocrisy.