Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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J
when i make a statement about how i understand something in the bible i will always present it as "in my opinion" as thats exactly what it is my opinion. im not going to say it as if i am the one and final authority as it only makes me look like an arrogant know it all pharisee.
so are you saying rome didnt kill Jesus, burn down the temple, kill Jewish leaders, Christian leaders (burned them alive mostly, wonder what that feels like?), killed 11 of the 12 Apostles, killed Paul, slaughtered entire villages that disagreed with doctrine (how many times did Jesus and the 12 do that??), crusades, inquisitions and all the rest.
all this is off the wall? did it never happen? every history book is wrong?
So, please tell me why you don't believe Jesus Christ is not God? I would really like to know? 
[/QUOTE]
i gave a perfect legit reason why i dont like the creeds. they have their uses but mankind has a history of pushing things to far. when you start presenting the creeds of man as equal authority with the Almighty, this is where you and i disagree. Jesus taught this and i am sticking with what He taught and not letting mankind sway me.
what i believe should not make a difference in what you believe. if you want to follow the trinity and any other doctrines, i have no problem with that, i would never tell you to change anything if it helps you to be a better Christian. but when you or anyone else starts proclaiming that one is not a Christian, not saved, rejecting Jesus because they dont uphold and proclaim doctrines of man, this i do not agree with.
so are you saying rome didnt kill Jesus, burn down the temple, kill Jewish leaders, Christian leaders (burned them alive mostly, wonder what that feels like?), killed 11 of the 12 Apostles, killed Paul, slaughtered entire villages that disagreed with doctrine (how many times did Jesus and the 12 do that??), crusades, inquisitions and all the rest.
all this is off the wall? did it never happen? every history book is wrong?
I gave you a perfectly legitimate argument of the purpose of the creeds. What is your rebuttal, "their meant to tell everone "our way or the highway." The bottom in all of this, (and btw I'm not talking about the trinity) is the fact that you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, despite the abundant evidence to the contrary.
The bottom in all of this, (and btw I'm not talking about the trinity) is the fact that you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, despite the abundant evidence to the contrary.
[/QUOTE] i gave a perfect legit reason why i dont like the creeds. they have their uses but mankind has a history of pushing things to far. when you start presenting the creeds of man as equal authority with the Almighty, this is where you and i disagree. Jesus taught this and i am sticking with what He taught and not letting mankind sway me.
what i believe should not make a difference in what you believe. if you want to follow the trinity and any other doctrines, i have no problem with that, i would never tell you to change anything if it helps you to be a better Christian. but when you or anyone else starts proclaiming that one is not a Christian, not saved, rejecting Jesus because they dont uphold and proclaim doctrines of man, this i do not agree with.
Well jaybird, let me cut to the chase and let's check and see what your opinion is worth. When the Apostle Thomas declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus Christ was his "Lord and God" was that an opinion or a fact according to you? And what is with all the "drama" and "assumptions" that come out of your mouth?
I'm talking about what Rome did, the crusades, the inquistions and the like. What your doing is "hiding" behind certain events that happened because of Christianity which gives you an excuse to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Your blaming man, the creeds, Rome, the trinity, (which btw you don't even understand) and sticking to, "well you believe what you want and I'll do the same."
And regarding your last paragrph? If one denys the deity of Jesus Christ they are not saved, period. And I'm not hiding behind any creeds because the Bible "trumps" the creeds. I already outlined the purpose of the creeds but you don't seem to be listening or should I say reading with any comphrension. There was a reason why I ask you why you believe Jesus Christ is not God?
And salvation has nothing to do with upholding and doctrines of man. Where did you get that from in what I said? So again, and what I'm going to say has nothing to do with the trinity. I'm asking you why you deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'm talking about what Rome did, the crusades, the inquistions and the like. What your doing is "hiding" behind certain events that happened because of Christianity which gives you an excuse to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Your blaming man, the creeds, Rome, the trinity, (which btw you don't even understand) and sticking to, "well you believe what you want and I'll do the same."
And regarding your last paragrph? If one denys the deity of Jesus Christ they are not saved, period. And I'm not hiding behind any creeds because the Bible "trumps" the creeds. I already outlined the purpose of the creeds but you don't seem to be listening or should I say reading with any comphrension. There was a reason why I ask you why you believe Jesus Christ is not God?
And salvation has nothing to do with upholding and doctrines of man. Where did you get that from in what I said? So again, and what I'm going to say has nothing to do with the trinity. I'm asking you why you deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
i view it as fact. not everyone interprets it as you do
there is no hiding, its called common sense. rome committed the worst crimes against Jews and Christians, burned the word of our Lord, burned the Lords temple, a temple our Lord commanded Solomon to build and be a place for His Holy name, a very provoking act IMO. and then this same empire adopts they faith and sets up rules to govern how one follows and understands what Jesus taught. this does not add up. no where in the bible do we have any example of enemies of our Lord put in charge of teaching His word and establishing creeds to follow. this would be no different than the Canaanites or Philistines setting up an "official" church of our Lord. Jesus never once taught for us to put our faith in councils of man which i dont, why do you?
where does Jesus teach this?
your not hiding behind creeds your putting creeds, laws of man, above the word of our Lord. and Jesus taught against this more than once.
i agree salvation has nothing to do with laws of man, i never said anything different.
why do you keep accusing me of denying the deity of Jesus?? i think this is the 3rd time now. i asked you last time to give me an example of where i did this which you did not. do you really think i have done this or are you just trying to poison the well with false accusations? what does the bible teach on bringing false witness?
there is no hiding, its called common sense. rome committed the worst crimes against Jews and Christians, burned the word of our Lord, burned the Lords temple, a temple our Lord commanded Solomon to build and be a place for His Holy name, a very provoking act IMO. and then this same empire adopts they faith and sets up rules to govern how one follows and understands what Jesus taught. this does not add up. no where in the bible do we have any example of enemies of our Lord put in charge of teaching His word and establishing creeds to follow. this would be no different than the Canaanites or Philistines setting up an "official" church of our Lord. Jesus never once taught for us to put our faith in councils of man which i dont, why do you?
where does Jesus teach this?
your not hiding behind creeds your putting creeds, laws of man, above the word of our Lord. and Jesus taught against this more than once.
And salvation has nothing to do with upholding and doctrines of man. Where did you get that from in what I said? So again, and what I'm going to say has nothing to do with the trinity. I'm asking you why you deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
why do you keep accusing me of denying the deity of Jesus?? i think this is the 3rd time now. i asked you last time to give me an example of where i did this which you did not. do you really think i have done this or are you just trying to poison the well with false accusations? what does the bible teach on bringing false witness?
That is another irresponsible false statement. Herbert Armstrong is but one of countless others who understand what and where the triune doctrine came from and how it was developed, which you insists is from the Bible, which it is not. Review the following origins of the doctrine of the Trinity. And FYI, this is an argument you will never win. Capiche!
Is the Trinity Biblical
Quasar
Please right now apologize to the Holy Spirit and Jesus ,Quasar92. Matthew 28:19's text is perfect and it is original according to all the intelligent scholars and more importantly according to the Holy Spirit. You have absolutely NO right to go against the Holy Spirit.I am Demanding this in the strongest terms (but in love)
Listen up! This is a forum where we believe the Bible is the Word of God.You can debate but You do Not have any right to delete the Very words of the true God Jesus!
This is what you have done and anyone can see it in the your post I quoted.
How dare you call this critically proven -(even by agnostic scholars)- verse an alteration.
Why have you become BOTH spiritually and critically blind and ignorant.
Now apologize to Jesus and pray.
Listen up! This is a forum where we believe the Bible is the Word of God.You can debate but You do Not have any right to delete the Very words of the true God Jesus!
This is what you have done and anyone can see it in the your post I quoted.
How dare you call this critically proven -(even by agnostic scholars)- verse an alteration.
Why have you become BOTH spiritually and critically blind and ignorant.
Now apologize to Jesus and pray.
J
sorry your wrong on that one. not accepting a law of man, is NOT denying Jesus deity. but some of you take these man made laws and elevate them to divine laws. man has no authority to do this. pharisees do this with their oral torah, i dont think its a road you want to go down.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
BTW the bible says the Father is greater than the Son.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
BTW the bible says the Father is greater than the Son.
So jaybird, you said to me the following to me in another post when I ask you a very specific question?
Well jaybird, let me cut to the chase and let's check and see what your opinion is worth. When the Apostle Thomas declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus Christ was his "Lord and God" was that an opinion or a fact according to you?"
"i view it as fact. not everyone interprets it as you do"
Since you view Jesus Christ as God why then or on what basis are you quoting John 14:28 the part that says, "for the Father is greater than I" In what respect or why is the Father greater than the Son? And what does all of this have to do with man made laws, mans authority, the torah or the Pharisees?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
post #425, the one that you dodged all the points and questions, explained most of this.
it has to do with man made laws because those laws take teachings such as John 14 28 and it twist them to conform to the laws of man. this is what pharisees did with the oral torah, you dont like what the bible teaches, you make up ur own teaching, call it scripture, now you have a law that fits, make sense?. Jesus address this issue in His ministry, but that to is ignored.
and how does all this connect to rome, another point you ignored, i pointed out all the corruption and Lord provoking acts of rome, and we dont have all these issues until AFTER rome merged with Christianity. does this make sense? Jesus Himself addressed those that had different opinions of Him, He didnt instruct His disciples to kill or do harm to them, He didnt have a problem with the different opinions, again it was not until AFTER rome merges that rome says this very thing is a problem. people disagreed after the ascension and before rome, there were no problems, the faith spread, it worked fine, and it worked in according to how Jesus instructed His disciples to do it, so why do we need rome to change what is working just fine and why do we even trust rome after all they have done to Christians?
Since you view Jesus Christ as God why then or on what basis are you quoting John 14:28 the part that says, "for the Father is greater than I" In what respect or why is the Father greater than the Son? And what does all of this have to do with man made laws, mans authority, the torah or the Pharisees?
and how does all this connect to rome, another point you ignored, i pointed out all the corruption and Lord provoking acts of rome, and we dont have all these issues until AFTER rome merged with Christianity. does this make sense? Jesus Himself addressed those that had different opinions of Him, He didnt instruct His disciples to kill or do harm to them, He didnt have a problem with the different opinions, again it was not until AFTER rome merges that rome says this very thing is a problem. people disagreed after the ascension and before rome, there were no problems, the faith spread, it worked fine, and it worked in according to how Jesus instructed His disciples to do it, so why do we need rome to change what is working just fine and why do we even trust rome after all they have done to Christians?
Oh please jaybird, I'm the one that has initiated this conversation with you and your telling me I'm "dodging" the issue? Since you cannot address what I posted you keep reverting back to the lame "man made laws and rome etc. argument." Your incapable of answering a direct question so you come up with rabbit trails.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The Father made clear to all who were willing to receive it that the Son was co-eternal and co-equal with the Father.
Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26
Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18
“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9
“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)
John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).
The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19
And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)
He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15
In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9
Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13
When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6
In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).
Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3
He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.
Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28
Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26
Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18
“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9
“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)
John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).
The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19
And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)
He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15
In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9
Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13
When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6
In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).
Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3
He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.
Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28
J
Oh please jaybird, I'm the one that has initiated this conversation with you and your telling me I'm "dodging" the issue? Since you cannot address what I posted you keep reverting back to the lame "man made laws and rome etc. argument." Your incapable of answering a direct question so you come up with rabbit trails.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And where do you assume authority to tell me to apologize for posting Scriptural truth? It is clear you have done very little reading of the contents of this thread. Review the link I posted in #341 for the Biblical description of God, that fully supports my post on the critique of Mt.28:19 and 1 Jn.5:7, in which the former is an alteration and the latter, an additive by unscrupulous scribes, defending their false beliefs, originally perpetrated by a few of the church fathers and the RCC who bought them.
As a qualified teacher of the Bible, my studies and research cover a period of more than 70 years, and I don't post anything that isn't inspired by the Holy Spirit, pertaining to the Scriptures. IMO, you are the one who needs to do the apologizing.
Quasar92