So are you claiming that all the Old Testament saints were not saved, and are now in hell? Because Hebrews 11, suggests otherwise! I suggest you read it all, rather than me copying and pasting it here. But I will note a few verses:
"But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Hebrews 11:16
In this verse, God says they are awaiting a better place! He is their God, and they are going to be with us in eternity!
"All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us." Hebrews 11:39-40
So, yes, the cross needed to happen, but these people knew God and were awaiting his coming. That anticipation, plus the gift of faith, says they were much more than people who only occasionally had the Holy Spirit. To prophecy - yes, you needed the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. But to believe?
They believed by faith! Just like we do! How did they get that faith? By God's grace!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-10
So the OT believers were given the same grace as we are. This is a serious doctrinal error, to think the OT believers did not have the grace of God, and were not saved by faith. I would suggest you read "The Gospel According to Moses" and "How I love your Torah, O Lord" by renowned Hebrew scholar Daniel Block. The insight he has received from his extensive study of the OT was communicated at a course I took for him on the Gospel according to Moses! It helped me to dispell the myth that there is a dicotomy between OT and NT believers, and showed me that grace was given both before and after the cross!
"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.17 For the law (ie. The Torah) was given (ἐδόθη) through Moses; grace and truth came (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17
"Contrary to the interpretation of this verse suggeseted by the adversative conjuction, "but" in the KJV, the contrast is NOT between the law and grace, but between the two ways in which grace has been communicated in two climactic moments in time:
1. The grace of the Torah was mediated through Moses,
2. Grace and truth have been personified in Christ.
The giving of the Torah was a climatic moment of divine grace. Yahweh's rescue of Israel was significant both soteriologically and judicially. He freed his chosen people from slavish vassaldom in Egypt and claimed them as his own vassals, a status symbolised by stipulations, decrees and laws, to which he demanded compliance.
But these laws were not to be viewed as a burden laid on the shoulders that was so heavy that no one could carry it. That is NOT grace! That is tyranny and deceit! To Moses, receiving the revelation of God's will was a supreme privilege- and the more detailed the revelation, the greater the privilege! The Israelites had been delivered from the bondage of Egypt that they might become the privileged servants of Yahweh, in fact his sons!" (Page 12 How I love Your Torah, O Lord."
"You are the sons of the Lord your God." Deut. 14:1a
"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name," John 1:1
This whole philosophy that the OT saints were not part of the Kingdom of God, is just utter nonsense. It puts God in a box that is simply not there in either the OT or the NT. That box is time, and saying that only "NT" believers are saved. Because God put a line in the sand, and only after 33 AD (or whatever the actual year was!) were people saved! NO!
Besides, you hypergrace people are the ones who are always saying that when we are saved we are forgiven our sins, past, present and future. Why? I assume because God is above time, as I have posted many times. He sees it all - the past present and future.
Yet although you want to claim God has totally forgiven all your sins on the basis of his precognition of all of eternity, you want to confine the OT believers to not being saved because of a minor thing like being born before the promise?
Those believers not only knew grace by faith, they were anticipating the Messiah, as over 300 prophecies in the OT predict! By faith, they knew Jesus was coming! By faith, they anticipated his coming and that he would save his people from their sins!
Just as by faith, we anticipate the return of Jesus Christ, and the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
PS. This does not make me a Messianic believer! This should be something all Christians properly understand.
"But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Hebrews 11:16
In this verse, God says they are awaiting a better place! He is their God, and they are going to be with us in eternity!
"All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us." Hebrews 11:39-40
So, yes, the cross needed to happen, but these people knew God and were awaiting his coming. That anticipation, plus the gift of faith, says they were much more than people who only occasionally had the Holy Spirit. To prophecy - yes, you needed the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. But to believe?
They believed by faith! Just like we do! How did they get that faith? By God's grace!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-10
So the OT believers were given the same grace as we are. This is a serious doctrinal error, to think the OT believers did not have the grace of God, and were not saved by faith. I would suggest you read "The Gospel According to Moses" and "How I love your Torah, O Lord" by renowned Hebrew scholar Daniel Block. The insight he has received from his extensive study of the OT was communicated at a course I took for him on the Gospel according to Moses! It helped me to dispell the myth that there is a dicotomy between OT and NT believers, and showed me that grace was given both before and after the cross!
"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.17 For the law (ie. The Torah) was given (ἐδόθη) through Moses; grace and truth came (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17
"Contrary to the interpretation of this verse suggeseted by the adversative conjuction, "but" in the KJV, the contrast is NOT between the law and grace, but between the two ways in which grace has been communicated in two climactic moments in time:
1. The grace of the Torah was mediated through Moses,
2. Grace and truth have been personified in Christ.
The giving of the Torah was a climatic moment of divine grace. Yahweh's rescue of Israel was significant both soteriologically and judicially. He freed his chosen people from slavish vassaldom in Egypt and claimed them as his own vassals, a status symbolised by stipulations, decrees and laws, to which he demanded compliance.
But these laws were not to be viewed as a burden laid on the shoulders that was so heavy that no one could carry it. That is NOT grace! That is tyranny and deceit! To Moses, receiving the revelation of God's will was a supreme privilege- and the more detailed the revelation, the greater the privilege! The Israelites had been delivered from the bondage of Egypt that they might become the privileged servants of Yahweh, in fact his sons!" (Page 12 How I love Your Torah, O Lord."
"You are the sons of the Lord your God." Deut. 14:1a
"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name," John 1:1
This whole philosophy that the OT saints were not part of the Kingdom of God, is just utter nonsense. It puts God in a box that is simply not there in either the OT or the NT. That box is time, and saying that only "NT" believers are saved. Because God put a line in the sand, and only after 33 AD (or whatever the actual year was!) were people saved! NO!
Besides, you hypergrace people are the ones who are always saying that when we are saved we are forgiven our sins, past, present and future. Why? I assume because God is above time, as I have posted many times. He sees it all - the past present and future.
Yet although you want to claim God has totally forgiven all your sins on the basis of his precognition of all of eternity, you want to confine the OT believers to not being saved because of a minor thing like being born before the promise?
Those believers not only knew grace by faith, they were anticipating the Messiah, as over 300 prophecies in the OT predict! By faith, they knew Jesus was coming! By faith, they anticipated his coming and that he would save his people from their sins!
Just as by faith, we anticipate the return of Jesus Christ, and the fullness of the Kingdom of God.
PS. This does not make me a Messianic believer! This should be something all Christians properly understand.
No. I am not claiming that Old Testament saints are in hell and I don't have a clue where you came up with that strange statement.
I ask you "Do you think that the Old Testament people were born again like Christians in the New Covenant?...hopefully I know your answer is - of course not. Did they have faith that they would be delivered - YES!
Were they finally delivered from their holding place when Jesus came and set them free after the cross?..YES! Praise God.
I look forward to talking them all and hearing their stories when I go to be with the Lord.
Nor did I say that the grace of God was not in the Old Testament in some form so your "serious doctrinal error" is all in your mind. ( I can't tell if it is you speaking or your Daniel Block guy that you are quoting )
I did not say that the OT saints were not saved either. Where in the world you got that from is escaping me. Perhaps you missed what I was saying?
The Old Testament is progressive revelation and it is all about Christ. I believe Christ was there in the OT throughout it all - hidden as in a mystery as Paul says.
They in the OT did not know about Christ in the form that Paul talks about in Col 1:24-25. Paul says that the mystery was hid from them in the past but now revealed to the saints - which is about Christ being in us in the New Covenant.
Colossians 1:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
And no one said that the saints in the Old Testament were not part of the kingdom of God. I have no idea where these unfounded thoughts are coming from.
Here is what I wrote about being born-again. The purpose I was talking about being born again as in the New Covenant was in answer to a poster that was claiming the Holy Spirit will leave us like it did Saul.
Now if you believe in this - then you are free to believe that. I don't because of what Jesus said in John 14:16-18. The Helper He shall be with you forever and that the Holy Spirit is with you and will be in you . Personally I believe what Jesus said here.
Perhaps you should read what I said again because what you have said in your post has nothing to do with what I was saying.
Quote:
There were no people "born-again" in the Old Testament as in the Holy Spirit being in them as one spirit and joined with Jesus in them before Jesus died and rose again from the dead.
Unquote
I believe that the OT people were looking for the Messiah as well...and I am not a Messianic believer either - I'm definitely a Gentile....
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