A empowered and working grace

[Grace777x70]

So are you claiming that all the Old Testament saints were not saved, and are now in hell? Because Hebrews 11, suggests otherwise! I suggest you read it all, rather than me copying and pasting it here. But I will note a few verses:

"But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." Hebrews 11:16

In this verse, God says they are awaiting a better place! He is their God, and they are going to be with us in eternity!

"All these were approved through their faith, but they did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us." Hebrews 11:39-40

So, yes, the cross needed to happen, but these people knew God and were awaiting his coming. That anticipation, plus the gift of faith, says they were much more than people who only occasionally had the Holy Spirit. To prophecy - yes, you needed the Holy Spirit to lead and guide. But to believe?

They believed by faith! Just like we do! How did they get that faith? By God's grace!

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph. 2:8-10

So the OT believers were given the same grace as we are. This is a serious doctrinal error, to think the OT believers did not have the grace of God, and were not saved by faith. I would suggest you read "The Gospel According to Moses" and "How I love your Torah, O Lord" by renowned Hebrew scholar Daniel Block. The insight he has received from his extensive study of the OT was communicated at a course I took for him on the Gospel according to Moses! It helped me to dispell the myth that there is a dicotomy between OT and NT believers, and showed me that grace was given both before and after the cross!

"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.17 For the law (ie. The Torah) was given (ἐδόθη) through Moses; grace and truth came (ἐγένετο) through Jesus Christ." John 1:16-17

"Contrary to the interpretation of this verse suggeseted by the adversative conjuction, "but" in the KJV, the contrast is NOT between the law and grace, but between the two ways in which grace has been communicated in two climactic moments in time:

1. The grace of the Torah was mediated through Moses,
2. Grace and truth have been personified in Christ.

The giving of the Torah was a climatic moment of divine grace. Yahweh's rescue of Israel was significant both soteriologically and judicially. He freed his chosen people from slavish vassaldom in Egypt and claimed them as his own vassals, a status symbolised by stipulations, decrees and laws, to which he demanded compliance.

But these laws were not to be viewed as a burden laid on the shoulders that was so heavy that no one could carry it. That is NOT grace! That is tyranny and deceit! To Moses, receiving the revelation of God's will was a supreme privilege- and the more detailed the revelation, the greater the privilege! The Israelites had been delivered from the bondage of Egypt that they might become the privileged servants of Yahweh, in fact his sons!" (Page 12 How I love Your Torah, O Lord."

"You are the sons of the Lord your God." Deut. 14:1a

"But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name," John 1:1

This whole philosophy that the OT saints were not part of the Kingdom of God, is just utter nonsense. It puts God in a box that is simply not there in either the OT or the NT. That box is time, and saying that only "NT" believers are saved. Because God put a line in the sand, and only after 33 AD (or whatever the actual year was!) were people saved! NO!

Besides, you hypergrace people are the ones who are always saying that when we are saved we are forgiven our sins, past, present and future. Why? I assume because God is above time, as I have posted many times. He sees it all - the past present and future.

Yet although you want to claim God has totally forgiven all your sins on the basis of his precognition of all of eternity, you want to confine the OT believers to not being saved because of a minor thing like being born before the promise?

Those believers not only knew grace by faith, they were anticipating the Messiah, as over 300 prophecies in the OT predict! By faith, they knew Jesus was coming! By faith, they anticipated his coming and that he would save his people from their sins!

Just as by faith, we anticipate the return of Jesus Christ, and the fullness of the Kingdom of God.

PS. This does not make me a Messianic believer! This should be something all Christians properly understand.

Hi Angela,

No. I am not claiming that Old Testament saints are in hell and I don't have a clue where you came up with that strange statement.

I ask you "Do you think that the Old Testament people were born again like Christians in the New Covenant?...hopefully I know your answer is - of course not. Did they have faith that they would be delivered - YES!

Were they finally delivered from their holding place when Jesus came and set them free after the cross?..YES! Praise God.

I look forward to talking them all and hearing their stories when I go to be with the Lord.

Nor did I say that the grace of God was not in the Old Testament in some form so your "serious doctrinal error" is all in your mind. ( I can't tell if it is you speaking or your Daniel Block guy that you are quoting )

I did not say that the OT saints were not saved either. Where in the world you got that from is escaping me. Perhaps you missed what I was saying?

The Old Testament is progressive revelation and it is all about Christ. I believe Christ was there in the OT throughout it all - hidden as in a mystery as Paul says.

They in the OT did not know about Christ in the form that Paul talks about in Col 1:24-25. Paul says that the mystery was hid from them in the past but now revealed to the saints - which is about Christ being in us in the New Covenant.

Colossians 1:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

[SUP]27 [/SUP] to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

And no one said that the saints in the Old Testament were not part of the kingdom of God. I have no idea where these unfounded thoughts are coming from.

Here is what I wrote about being born-again. The purpose I was talking about being born again as in the New Covenant was in answer to a poster that was claiming the Holy Spirit will leave us like it did Saul.

Now if you believe in this - then you are free to believe that. I don't because of what Jesus said in John 14:16-18. The Helper He shall be with you forever and that the Holy Spirit is with you and will be in you . Personally I believe what Jesus said here.

Perhaps you should read what I said again because what you have said in your post has nothing to do with what I was saying.

Quote:

There were no people "born-again" in the Old Testament as in the Holy Spirit being in them as one spirit and joined with Jesus in them before Jesus died and rose again from the dead.

Unquote

I believe that the OT people were looking for the Messiah as well...and I am not a Messianic believer either - I'm definitely a Gentile....

 

[miknik5]

But you are free to declare LORD, LORD.....didn't I?

 

[PeterJens]

But you are free to declare LORD, LORD.....didn't I?

This is an interesting point, often missquoted.
It comes after the sermon on the mount and Jesus saying put these things into action to
find life, to stand firm, to be rooted and grounded in God.

He then warns people that many will come claiming spiritual authority and all the spiritual
things they have done, and He will say, "go away from me you evil doers."

Now everyone understands the rejection, even though people say Jesus will never reject,
but they forget the reason. You have to become real, to be a child of God, to know what
love is flowing from your heart.

I thought years ago this was so simple no one could get it wrong.
But here we are 2016 and people are telling me I am the one rejected and they are the
blessed when I am the one saying build your house upon the rock, listen to Jesus, do
what He says and you will find the Kingdom. Kind of ironic how blind religion really is
and things are not what they seem.

 

[PeterJens]

Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:19-22

Interesting response to the above verse, when I suggested people leave it out
all the time. That got a serious response, it made me think.

The biggest lies are the ones where a claim is made but things are not actually followed
through, it is just a token.

And the claim is people point to Jesus and the cross. But really they preach Grace, which
is just everything is resolved, just have faith in Jesus.

Some told me off for talking about the cross and the sacrifice so much, I needed to focus
on the resurrection. So now the light has dawned. They assume they are talking about Jesus
and the cross, but actually that is history, a foot note in where they are.

This is why they no longer mention sin or repentance. There is no sense of getting right with
God, or even a rebuke, or having a time of sorting things out, or holiness, or confession.

And it is hard to preach grace from Jesus's words because He preaches about sin, righteousness,
forgiveness of sins, walking in love, healing, cleansing. Because for them they are beyond this.

So the big lie is they point to Jesus and the cross, no they point to grace and free acceptance
that everything you want is Ok, name it and claim it.

It is why I found the message so strange and off. The core is always missing because it is not
part of who they are. It is like a superficial clothing, when challenged will always be brought out
but rarely do they dwell on it.

So thankyou for highlighting the spiritual reality of this movement of HG.

It also puts so much interaction into perspective. They are beyond Christ and holiness, it is
the age of the Latter reign, of super human christians, except they are just sinners playing
at being God.

 

[PeterJens]

Emotional disconnect

Dear reader I realised something profound.
Once you realise someone has no integrity, does not care about what you are saying
or why, merely how they can play with your emotions and make you look evil and wrong,
everything falls apart.

Language works by understanding the others framework and analysing it or showing its
strengths and weaknesses. Hopefully that leads to a resolution or conclusion later.

Once you know no matter what you contribute they will just abuse you, it all becomes
a joke. It is not even christian, let alone respectful.

Now these double minded folk can be spotted because things do not stay static or do they
respect the beliefs or understanding of others.

A tell tell sign of this problem is absolute certainty and understanding. When addressing a
subject it is not a point of view or this is my experience, it is this is the only truth, and
nothing but the truth.

And when this falls apart, it becomes deformation of character with lies and slander.

Now if they knew Jesus, they would be ashamed.

Most on cc are sincere people in search of sincere answers, believing the best in people
and looking to grow in love and grace of Christ. Obviously the enemy has placed some
truly deluded people in our midst. But I suppose loving them is the best we can do.

 

[miknik5]

Well then sir, correct the topic of this thread.

Because it is clear that to you it is "GRACE" empowered by self

 

[PeterJens]

Well then sir, correct the topic of this thread.

Because it is clear that to you it is "GRACE" empowered by self

I am sorry grace is not a thing it is an attitude of God and people.

So if you are saying what are the extents of Gods grace and how does it work,
what is its intention, then this language makes sense to me.

Now I am empowered by love, Gods love in my heart, His Spirit talking to my Spirit,
His word speaking to my mind, His forgiveness cleansing my sin, His sacrifice
cancelling out my debts for sin. Now I am involved, in responding but it is Christ
who makes it all work. In all relationships it is both parties that make it work,
it is why it is called a relationship.

Think how we use language.

They looked at them with love. They brought peace and mercy. They had a sinful
heart. They were cleansed and pure. Grace does not normally appear.

So what do you mean by empowered grace?

 

[PeterJens]

What am I struggling with in my mind?

The word grace appears to be a summary of other things.
So Christ dying for sinners to bring them into the Kingdom happened because of
His grace. Now grace means His love, His righteousness, His forgiveness, His hope,
His understanding, the depth and size of His heart. It conveys a positive dealing with
someone, like picking up a child who is lost.

But when people take a word like this and then change it to mean everything,
it actually looses any meaning.

 

[miknik5]

What am I struggling with in my mind?

The word grace appears to be a summary of other things.
So Christ dying for sinners to bring them into the Kingdom happened because of
His grace. Now grace means His love, His righteousness, His forgiveness, His hope,
His understanding, the depth and size of His heart. It conveys a positive dealing with
someone, like picking up a child who is lost.

But when people take a word like this and then change it to mean everything,
it actually looses any meaning.

You're not CHRIST. You do understand that don't you?
what does what you do or don't do have anything to do with those who are outside The DOOR. Can you showing Christ's righteousness, Christ's love, Christ's grace without first professing the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL do anything for those who remain outside the door?

You still have kept from those who need to enter, the TRUTH of the ONE to whom they should look
And instead you are professing your self and that is not God's RIGHTEOUSNESS but which you are professing but a false and secondary imitation of THE IMAGE you think you present

it it is still self you are professing sir
men do not need to look at you or be led by you. They need to go to HIM
you professing everything but CHRIST
is not good

 

[PeterJens]

You're not CHRIST. You do understand that don't you?
what does what you do or don't do have anything to do with those who are outside The DOOR. Can you showing Christ's righteousness, Christ's love, Christ's grace without first professing the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL do anything for those who remain outside the door?

You still have kept from those who need to enter, the TRUTH of the ONE to whom they should look
And instead you are professing your self and that is not God's RIGHTEOUSNESS but which you are professing but a false and secondary imitation of THE IMAGE you think you present

it it is still self you are professing sir
men do not need to look at you or be led by you. They need to go to HIM
you professing everything but CHRIST
is not good

"You're not CHRIST"

Difficult to know how to respond sensibly to this.
Do you often share with people about spiritual ideas?

 

[miknik5]

"You're not CHRIST"

Difficult to know how to respond sensibly to this.
Do you often share with people about spiritual ideas?

You are not CHRIST, sir

and HE is not taking to our spirits. We are being confirmed to HIS

we (are supposed to) take hold of HIM who took hold of us FIRST AND FOREMOST

Got it?
Dora your mind now understand?

 

[miknik5]

You are not a version of Christ in the world before any men unless you have first been washed. And once one has been washed they serve HIM and others and do THE WILL AND THE WORK of THE FATHER

They do not serve themselves and they certainly do not think themselves ANYTHING apart from HIM who washed and made clean by HIS blood what apart from HIM washing and making clean is unclean and uncovered

 

[PeterJens]

You're not CHRIST. You do understand that don't you?
what does what you do or don't do have anything to do with those who are outside The DOOR. Can you showing Christ's righteousness, Christ's love, Christ's grace without first professing the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL do anything for those who remain outside the door?

You still have kept from those who need to enter, the TRUTH of the ONE to whom they should look
And instead you are professing your self and that is not God's RIGHTEOUSNESS but which you are professing but a false and secondary imitation of THE IMAGE you think you present

it it is still self you are professing sir
men do not need to look at you or be led by you. They need to go to HIM
you professing everything but CHRIST
is not good

I think I can get an idea of what you are saying.

But let me put it in a preaching setting. I stand up on a street and talk about salvation
through faith in Christ, His sacrifice for sins and power to overcome sin and death.

My testimony is my life and works, along with the words I speak.
I call people to approach the throne of God in the work of Christ.

So that is telling the truth, that is being a witness, that is professing Christ.
Somehow you have a different idea, but cannot frame the words.
I am listening if you want.

 

[miknik5]

I think I can get an idea of what you are saying.

But let me put it in a preaching setting. I stand up on a street and talk about salvation
through faith in Christ, His sacrifice for sins and power to overcome sin and death.

My testimony is my life and works, along with the words I speak.
I call people to approach the throne of God in the work of Christ.

So that is telling the truth, that is being a witness, that is professing Christ.
Somehow you have a different idea, but cannot frame the words.
I am listening if you want.

GOOD! When you stand before GOD you can tell HIM that

 

[miknik5]

Can anyone approach the throne of grace without The Right Covering of His Grace?
How did they enter in sir? Through your self profession of self?

 

[miknik5]

Look into strange fire

 

[PeterJens]

Can anyone approach the throne of grace without The Right Covering of His Grace?
How did they enter in sir? Through your self profession of self?

Do you live alone or have a family?
I ask because your language is from someone who sounds very isolated.

 

[miknik5]

Do you live alone or have a family?
I ask because your language is from someone who sounds very isolated.

And you sound like a man who is letting his left hand know what his right hand is doing and announcing it to his "lesser" brother
It translates to those who exalt themselves will be abased

 

[PeterJens]

And you sound like a man who is letting his left hand know what his right hand is doing and announcing it to his "lesser" brother
It translates to those who exalt themselves will be abased

I suppose I should not expect anything sensible from you. You are unusual.
What type of church do you go to?

I think you feel I am being proud and should be humbled.
Are you the instrument of humbling?

 

[PeterJens]

And you sound like a man who is letting his left hand know what his right hand is doing and announcing it to his "lesser" brother
It translates to those who exalt themselves will be abased

I think I have got the feel of your approach.

We are to approach the throne, the fire set on a hill.
Suddenly we are overcome with the power from on High. Like magic everything fell into
place and each decision was obvious we just knew how to work. Nothing was of ourselves
all was of God. Every word we spoke was Christ speaking out, conviction fell everywhere.

Trouble with these comic strips is that is what they are and life is very different, like
me talking to you and asking simple questions. Funny that, life not being what we
project...