Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

bluto · Sep 17, 2016

There are several issues with Quasar's view that the Holy Spirit is the Father.

Foremost, is the fact that the Father and the Son were regarded by NT authors as one pneumatological unit. Or as Augustine put it,

“For, it is he (i.e.., the Holy Spirit) of whom the apostle says (Galatians 4.6), 'But because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts,' and it is he (i.e., the Holy Spirit) of whom the same Son says (Matthew 10.20), 'For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.'”

We see this in passages such as Romans 8.9-10; Acts 16.1-8, where there is an interchangeable use of “the Spirit of God”/“the Spirit of Christ,” and “the Holy Spirit”/“the Spirit of Jesus.” Also see Philippians 1.19, and 1 Peter 1.11. To these authors the Holy Spirit is both, the Spirit of the Father, and of the Son.

The second issue is, what do we do with texts such as John 16.13, where the “Spirit of truth” is said to “not speak on His own initiative”? This would seem to indicate that there is One with authority over Him.

In the OT, the Spirit is presented as an extension of God's personality and activity. The Spirit is God's “hand” (Ezek. 3.14; 8.1-3; 37.1) and his “breath” (Job 33.4; 34.14), his power and presence (Ps. 139.7). When the Spirit departed from Saul (1 Sam. 16.14), that meant that God had departed from him (1 Sam. 18.12). Similarly, the NT describes Jesus as being in and with those who are led by the Spirit (Matt. 18.20; John 14.23).

Well said, and in addition to that the Holy Spirit is a person in relation to the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is God in relation to us. So, if you are in a relationship with the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, then you must be in a relationship with them all, for there is only one God and if you deny one, you deny all.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

jaybird88 · Sep 17, 2016

bluto said:

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I wonder why the Holy Spirit doesnt know the day and hour like the Father?

bluto · Sep 17, 2016

jaybird88 said:

Why are you changing the subject? If you want to ask unrelated questions start another thread and I'll be happy to address them. And btw, I ask you "first" about 1 Thessalonians 5:21 as it relates to quasar's many scriptures which you have not addressed. Why not? In fact, I'll make you a deal, you address my question and then I will address yours.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

williamjordan · Sep 17, 2016

I have seen Unitarians, particularly those of the "Biblical Unitarian" camp (or otherwise known as Socinian), use this argument against texts such as 2 Peter 1.1, where Jesus is referred to as "our God and Savior." They argue that, "It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one." However, it seems strange that the argument presented restricts this stylistic trait to the epistles only. If consistent in its application throughout the NT, even in the gospels, one can easily see the theological implications when applied to other Christological significant texts (i.e., John 1.1), in which they deny has anything to do with reference to the pre-existence of the Son.

It also seems odd that one would argue that this stylistic trait is common throughout all the NT epistles. This characteristic is not found in the book of Acts; the first, second, and third epistles of John; Philemon; Philippians.

In fact, if we were to compare the opening passages of 2 Peter 1, we would find that just as in Philippians and other epistles that it isn't until vv. 2 or 3 that the Father is mentioned, using very similar language.

williamjordan · Sep 17, 2016

In reference to my previous post, you can see the similarity in salutations. Notice the authors refer to themselves as "servant(s)" of Jesus, and direct there letters "to all the saints in Christ Jesus"/"to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ," and that it isn't until the next verse in both epistles that there is a greeting to both the Father, and Jesus using the same "grace and peace" language.

Book of Philippians
1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Book of 2 Peter
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

SouthernStorm · Sep 17, 2016

[h=2]Re: Can the Trinity be Biblically proven? [/h]Even if the Trinity cannot be biblically proven, it can be internally known through the Spirit of the living God who dwells within those who believe in Jesus by faith and live according to his will and word.

bluto · Sep 17, 2016

SouthernStorm said:

Exactly, and that's why I always say the Trinity is not a requirment for salvation, it is the RESULT of salvation. You cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God.

Romans 8:9-11, "However, yo are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spririt of Christ, he does not belong to Him. vs10, And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. vs11, But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

jaybird88 · Sep 17, 2016

bluto said:

my fault bluto, when i saw

i was thinking this was pertaining to the Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
test all things? are you asking me to test Qs statements against scripture? i thought i did. maybe i didnt, im trying to watch ball games so cut me some slack jack. love that beating FSU took today.

bluto · Sep 17, 2016

jaybird88 said:

I'm watching the games as well. I'm glad Michigan State is beating Notre Dame and I hope the OK sooners beat Ohio State. So there, I'm giving you some slack and I'm going to take some "slack" time for a while.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Quasar92 · Sep 17, 2016

bluto said:

Ok quasar, I have not forgotten about you. And your right, my argument is a prime case of a syllogism because it cannot be refuted. The Bible does identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as God. Not "a gods," not "three gods," and surely not three made up pagan gods, but the ONE GOD. And if you could refute the syllogism you would have done it but instead your asking me "why" questions which I will be happy to address.

First of all your question? "Then explain to me why the Bible teaches God is the Holy Spirit and His title is Father? One person!" Your question is an "assumption" because the Bible does not teach the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. If the Father is the Holy Spirit (and you said He is on the basis that God the Father is Holy) then there would be no need for the Bible to distinguish the Holy Spirit from the Father. One would only see the same continued metaphorical applications being used all the time. God the Father is never identified in the Bible as the person of the Holy Spirit.

Here are some examples of what I mean. Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was formless and vlid, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and THE SPIRIT of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Notice the rest of the verses say, "Then God" said or did this or that. Then at Acts 5:3,4, "But Peter said, "Ananias why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?" Why does it not just say, "why did Satan fill your heart to lie to God?" And at vs4, "While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? And after it was sold was it not under your control? You have not lied to men but to God." In other words, the Holy Spirit is idneitifed as God but not as God the Father as you errantly teach.

Or anothe example! John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." So here you have God the Father and God the Son who will make their abode with them and no mention of the Holy Spirit until vs26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

So quasar, if the Father is the Holy Spirit why would have to send Himself? Why are God the Father and the Holy Spirit distinguished? I can you many examples but hopefully you get the point. Now to your second question? It is true that God the Son and God the Father are two distinct persons. I'm not argueing that point. What I'm telling you is the fact that the Son preexisted His incarnation. Not as "separate" persons as you said but "distinct" persons. There is a difference between the meaning of the two words.

You yourself admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son but the rub comes from you saying "Jesus became human at His incarnation." How does that preclude Jesus Christ who is God from preexisting His incarnation. What if I was to prove to you that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is the preincarnate Jesus Christ? But for now let me address your last point. "All men who produce children of their own, have the title of father! With that having been said, why don't Trinitarians make the claim that Jesus and the Son are TWO persons instead of just one, as they so they do Almighty God, the Holy Spirit, and the Father?"

I could not agree with you more quasar. It is a universal law that all sons bear the same nature and their father. Since the Father of Jelsus Christ is God the Father then Jesus' nature is that of Deity. As well, since Mary is the mother of Jesus He has a second nature which is "human being." This is one of the reasons Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." Now, you cannot split up "natures" because Jesus Christ is one person, not two. In fact, He is the only one that has two natures as I explained.

At John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." That word "with" means that the Word/Logos is "with" somebody else other than Himself and He is identified as God. At verse 14 that same person who is the
Word/Jesus Christ became flesh/human. One persons with two natures. This is not hard to understand because this is what the Bible teaches.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Hi bluto: Yes, Your case of syllogism can easily be refuted. Kudos to you for the time work and effort you put into the bove post. Now if you will carefully review the work of a number of years I put into the following, it will answer every point you raised in yours.

Post #341.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Sep 17, 2016

Quasar92 said:

The following is my post #341 to save you time hunting for it, bluto:

[FONT=&quot]The following thread is theology, pertaining to the Biblical description of God, as it differs from the doctrine of the Trinity. It is not being posted to cause animosity between members in any way, but to seriously study the facts from the Scriptures, with an open mind. Any differences of issues will be responded to when and as posted.It is hard to understand anyone who does not believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God and literally, God the Son, according to Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. How could it be possible for the Holy Spirit to produce the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, without receiving the deity of God, as found in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35? To be empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit to all who receive Him as Lord? Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33, 3:16, 20:21-22, Acts 2:1-3, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13. To say nothing of performing 19 noteable miracles of healing the blind, the deaf, people with terminal illness and raising three from the dead? Do you think any ordinary human being could ever do that?[/FONT]

The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures.

[FONT=&quot]Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented in the following, to seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4.God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived in what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, as documented in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]B. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case when God, who is the Holy Spirit produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]C. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with, to those who do, and promises eternal life in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.10:27-29, 20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. Bringing us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, that many people fail to comprehend and understand - all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with physical aspects in any way. Jesus said He and His Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. In which He meant, as in 17:21-22, that all of us who belong to Him become one, with He and the Father, as He and the Father are one with each other. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him. Receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], and become a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28 [NIV]. Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10. A similar case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, when Satan entered into Judas, whom he then controlled by, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9. The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12, as well as in other places. All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23. Neither the terms Holy Spirit or Father are mentioned there, but rather Almighty God, who is the Holy Spirit, together with the Lamb, who is Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10. Pertaining to the literal description of God - Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, [and Lord in] Ps.110:1 and "God is with us," in Isa.7:14. After they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. In Col.1:15, Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [According to Lk.2:6-7; Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5], later changed to an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44,52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is the following: [As documented in 6. above][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11. ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23]. THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]12. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity! It cannot be taught nor supported from the Bible. Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12. And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. With that having been Scripturally established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means "God with us," in Isa.7:14. Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 can clearly be seen as having been was altered by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are. [And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts]. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]13. mTherefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in Jn.17:21-22 and 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages described as the Formula for the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit;" which is, in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above. In addition to the Father and the Son being two entirely separate individuals.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Quasar92[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]\[/FONT]

Quasar92 · Sep 17, 2016

williamjordan said:

Your assessment of my article is in error. It is not anything like Modalism which I will post for you below to copare with the Biblical Description of God that you quoted of mine. Review the following:

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

Present-day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Sep 17, 2016

bluto said:

Amen to that, bluto!

Quasar92

williamjordan · Sep 17, 2016

Quasar92 said:

I don't know what part about it is in error. I am not suggesting that you are a Modalist. I'm saying you have confused Trinitarianism with Modalism, and thus, you're argument against the Trinitarian position is in error. You are giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that is not advanced by Trinitarianism.

I know precisely what a Modalist is, I use to be one.

Quasar92 · Sep 17, 2016

williamjordan said:

With that having been said, you have not carefully evaluted my post to know nd understand what it says and means.The Bible teaches that God is the Holy Spirit AND Father, as I have posted. The Word, in Jn.1:1-2 was brought forth by the Father as His firstborn over all creation. He did not become the Son of God/God the Son until God, the Holy Spirit produced Him by the virgin Mary. Who then Himself became the Father. Though He is in reality the Father of us all. With that having been said, from my post that provides all the supporting Scripture for, that reveal our Godhead consists of the Father and the Son.

The term father is the same title all men receive when they produce children of their own.. Why is it, Trinitarians, which I was one of for 45 years, fail to see with their logic, Jesus and the Son should also be two persons as they make the Father and the Holy Spirit out to be.

Modalism makes God our to be singular as well as denying the deity of Jesus. Those are the major differences between their views and mine.

Quasar92

williamjordan · Sep 18, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Once again, you're defending what you believe. You stated, "Modalism makes God our to be singular as well as denying the deity of Jesus. Those are the major differences between their views and mine." And as I have said now for the third time, I am not accusing you of being Modalist. My initial post had nothing to do with what you believed, but was accusing you of inaccurately representing the Trinitarian position.

I have already criticized the idea of God the Father being the Holy Spirit (see Post# 458),

When John writes, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” he does three things:

(1) “In the beginning was the Word” - The word “was” (en) is a timeless word which points to existence before the present time without reference to a point of origin. One can push back the “beginning” as far as you can imagine, and, according to John, the Word still is. The Word is not a creation that came into existence at “the beginning,” for He antedates that beginning.

(2) “the Word was with God” - The word "with" (pros) speaks of a face-to-face relationship. According to John, before the "beginning," the Word was in close communion with God.

(3) “the Word was God” -The term "God" here carries with it a qualitative nuance (i.e., “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath”). Take John 3.6 for example,

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

The idea here has absolutely nothing to do with identification of any sort (“the spirit,” “a spirit”), but everything to do with that of predication. More specifically, the nouns (“flesh,” “spirit”) here function in a purely qualitative sense, without a definite or indefinite semantic force. The context of the passage in view is about the inherent nature of sinful flesh (John 3.6a) in contrast to the new nature of man in the process of regeneration (John 3.6b). Likewise, a similar idea being portrayed is found in 1 John 1.5 (“God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all”), where it is God's essence and nature that is being described in contrast to “darkness.” That is, God has all the qualities, and attributes of light – He is just, holy, and good – therefore, light is an attribute/characteristic inhering within God. Further examples include, but are not limited to, John 6.63 (“The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life”), 1 John 4.8 (“…because God is love”), Matthew 12.8, ("For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" [not "the Lord of the Sabbath," or "a Lord of the Sabbath"]), et al.

John’s placement of the noun before the verb in the passage is significant in that it stresses the qualities or nature of the subject. The positioning of θεὸς before the verb ἦν is what is known as a preverbal predicate nominative. Since John has identified ὁ λόγος (“the Word”) as the subject of the verse, this means that θεὸς in John 1.1b is a subject complement which further identifies the subject. In other words, θεὸς serves to describe the nature and essence of the Word. That said, the Trinitarian position on John 1.1 is that the text is teaching the equality between the Father, and the Son... that all the qualities, attributes, and nature of God – everything that makes God, God – the Word also possesses.

Further, John 1.3 presupposes the eternality of Jesus,

“All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (John 1.3)

Hone in on the second part of the passage, “apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being.” Christ is being described as the One through whom all things which have “come into being” have their place in existence. Everything that was created; everything that had a starting point in time; everything that has come into existence… all things that “came into being” did so through, or by means of the Word. These are not words that describe a created being, these are words that describe an active, and eternal agent of creation. The Logos is not here identified as one that “came into being,” but the One through whom all things that have “come into being” have their existence. Meaning, if Jesus is created, and Jesus is the One through whom all things that have “come into being” have their existence, then Jesus created Himself.

Quasar92 · Sep 18, 2016

Opinion is meaningless without proper Scriptural support.

1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.

God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures,.

The origin of the person who later became Jesus, the Son of God/God the Son: [Does that look like I deny the deity of Christ?]

It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,

before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

[SUP]Col.1:15 "[/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation."

The pre-incarnate Jesus, WAS NOT the Son of God/God the Son until He was produced by God, the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, recorded in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. The Holy Spirit then became the Father of Jesus!. The term father is the TITLE of every man who produces children of his own! The same as God the Father and God the Son! TWO VERY SEPARATE ENTITIES. Review Jn.14:28; 17:3 and 5

The Holy Spirit made it clear He was the ONLY God during OT times in Deut.4:35; 32:39; Isa.44:6; Isa.45:5., and in many other places as well. Your claim Jesus is co-eternal and co-equal to YHWH breaks the Scriptures that refute it. Review Jn.14:28; 17:3; Lk.24:46 and Tom.10:9.

There are a number of theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus in the OT. Such as in Gen. 18 and 32; Ex.33:22; Jos.5:13-15; Dan.3:24-25 and 12:7.

Jesus received the Holy Spirit from His Father in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. He is the COMFORTER/ADVOCATE/HELPER, in Jn.16:7, to differentiate the difference between the Father and the Holy Spirit the Father gave to Jesus.

[SUP]Jn.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[SUP][a][/SUP] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

[SUP]Jn.14:10 "[/SUP]Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." The COMFORTER/Holy Spirit, from Jesus, is what all of us who believe in Jesus receive , beginning at Pentecost. Confirming Mt.3:11

According to the above Scriptures together with Jn.14:28 and 17:3, The Father is greater than the Son..

Jn.20:17 "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Previously addressed above..

God is capable of using His Spirit in many different ways, including, having it given to all of us whom He gave it to, by His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

It is clear, the reason you fail to comprehend what I have written, is because you obviously have not read it, revealed by the argument you use against it.

I can assure you, any doctrine that is not taught from the Bible, or by Jesus, or His disciples, can never be proven.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Sep 18, 2016

You misrepresent what I have written and try to rationalize the teachings in the Bible of a triune Godhead, that is neither taught from the Bible, nor from Jesus or His disciples. As admitted by many esteemed Trinitarians and all encyclopedias. But rather from the church fathers who sold it to the RCC, by the pressure of Constantine. There are a number of my posts on this thread that give you the historic development of the Trinity in the fourth century.and prior. I was a Triniarian for 45 years until I tired of trying to explain it to others. I entered in to an extensive research and study, over a 35 year period of time to find the Biblical description of God and origin of Jesus directly from the Bible. My pst #341 is the result of my work. The entire project is not to denograte the Trinity, but rather to expose God's truth for those who seek it.

Quasar02

valiant · Sep 18, 2016

jaybird88 said:

The separateness of the Holy Spirit was not yet revealed

valiant · Sep 18, 2016

Quasar92 said:

You misrepresent what I have written and try to rationalize the teachings in the Bible of a triune Godhead, that is neither taught from the Bible, nor from Jesus or His disciples. As admitted by many esteemed Trinitarians and all encyclopedias. But rather from the church fathers who sold it to the RCC, by the pressure of Constantine. There are a number of my posts on this thread that give you the historic development of the Trinity in the fourth century.and prior. I was a Triniarian for 45 years until I tired of trying to explain it to others. I entered in to an extensive research and study, over a 35 year period of time to find the Biblical description of God and origin of Jesus directly from the Bible. My pst #341 is the result of my work. The entire project is not to denograte the Trinity, but rather to expose God's truth for those who seek it.

Quasar02

You reveal the lie put forward by the Devil. The triunity of God was revealed by Jesus. You reveal that God has not made Himself known to your heart,

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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